Damage Die Type Modifiers

[Lucius]

I like polyhedrals too.

But Hero was built from the ground up on cubes. I think grafting the other four regular polyhedrons onto its system will get weird and unbalanced results. I can understand the impulse but I don't see it working - and all the analysis in the thead so far just confirms that as far as I'm concerned.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary notes that Lucius really does love all those regular three dimensional shapes - in a Platonic way of course.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'll put my comments in the quote rather than break up the flow

It's a toss up for me.

[new]:

Here are what I believe to be the maximum effects for normal stun attacks:

1d2 (2 BODY, 2 STUN)
1d3 (2 BODY, 3 STUN)
1d4 (2 BODY, 4 STUN)
1d6 (2 BODY, 5 STUN) Typo, I assume - 6 STUN
1d8 (2 BODY, 8 STUN)
1d10 (2 BODY, 10 STUN)
1d12 (2 BODY, 12 STUN)
1d20 (2 BODY, 20 STUN)
1d100 (2 BODY, 100 STUN)

Extrapolating from the arbitrary fact that 2 BODY & 4 STUN together cost 5 character points, the price of 1 DC (1d6 "normal stun" attack)... here are my [new] numbers: Isn't that 2 BOD and 6 STUN?

1d2: 2+1 = 3 active points 60 AP = 20d2 for an average of 20 BOD and 30 STUN. I'll use it for increased knockback, penetrating attacks and, in Heroic games, attacks that are expected to kill rather than stun. That average of 1 BOD per die beats a 4d6 Killing Attack by a substantial margin (although I also have to punch through normal defenses). Also great for automotons, Entangles and Barriers!
1d3: 2+1.5 = 3.5 active points 60 AP gets me 17d3 for an average of 34 Stun and 17 BOD - not eally worth it - I can get better STUN or better BOD with other choices.
1d4: 2+2 = 4 active points15d6 averages 37.5 STUN and 15 BOD - again, not worth it
1d6: 2+3 = 5 active points (1 DC)42 STUN and 12 BOD on average
1d8: 2+4 = 6 active points10d8 averages 45 STUN and 10 BOD - no point using d6 if the intent is to Stun
1d10: 2+5 = 7 active points8 1/2 d10 averages 47 STUN and 8.5 BOD - STUN still climbing
1d12: 2+6 = 8 active points7 1/2 d12 averages 49 STUN and 7.5 BOD, so the STUN continues to rise
1d20: 2+10 = 12 active points5d20 averages 52.5 STUN and 5 BOD, so I'm still leaning to higher dice to KO
1d100: 2+50 = 52 active pointsHard to get 60 AP - I guess 1d100 + 1d12, for 50.5 + 6.5 = 57 average STUN and 2 average BOD

So, I guess I want a Multipower with a 20d2 attack for when BOD is important and a 1d100 + 1d12 atatck when Stun is important. You're assuming both are of equal utility, but once I'm below defenses for BOD, it's useless even if I drop to doing no BOD, and I want the highest STUN possible in punching past a target's defenses

[edit]

Killing Attacks (max dmg):
BOD is key here, so I'm guessing high dice will win out
1d2 (2 BODY, 6 STUN): 2+3 = 5 active points 12d2 for an average of 12 BOD, 24 STUN - probably not
1d3 (3 BODY, 9 STUN): 3+4.5 = 7.5 active points 8d3 averages 16 BOD and 32 STUN - that's more BOD than a 4d6 KA, so my theory didn't hold up for long!
1d4 (4 BODY, 12 STUN): 4+6 = 10 active points 6d4 will average 15 BOD and 30 STUN, so we're sinking
1d6 (6 BODY, 18 STUN): 6+9 = 15 active points 14 BOD, 28 STUN
1d8 (8 BODY, 24 STUN): 8+12 = 20 active points 3d8 for 13.5 BOD and 27 STUN
1d10 (10 BODY, 30 STUN): 10+15 = 25 active points 2d10 + 1d4 for 13.5 BOD and 27 STUN again
1d12 (12 BODY, 36 STUN): 12+18 = 30 active points 2d12 aveages 13 BOD and 26 STUN
1d20 (20 BODY, 60 STUN): 20+30 = 50 active points 1d20 + 1d4 averages 13 BOD again
1d100 (100 BODY, 300 STUN): 100+150 = 250 active points Can`t afford to even consider that on a 60 AP budget. 5d20 will average 52.5 BOD and this only averages 50.5, so it will be a bad buy if we do hit those levels

Turns out it`s d3`s for the win - plus I`m still actually rolling d6`s!

The more I play with The Main Man's method, the more I like it.

[Mister E]

"Mattock of the Titans": 5d6 HKA (max: 30 BODY, 90 STUN): 30+45 = 75 active points

"Maul of the Titans": 4d10 HKA (max: 40 BODY, 120 STUN): 40+60 = 100 active points

[Hugh Neilson]

"Mattock of the Titans": 5d6 HKA (max: 30 BODY, 90 STUN): 30+45 = 75 active points

"Maul of the Titans": 4d10 HKA (max: 40 BODY, 120 STUN): 40+60 = 100 active points

Mattock - average 17.5 BOD, 35 STUN

Maul - average 22 BOD, 44 STUN

Make Maul 6 1/2d6 HKA and it averages 23 BOD, 46 STUN

Make both d3's and we get:

"Mattock of the Titans": 10d3 HKA (max: 30 BODY, 90 STUN): 30+45 = 75 active points, averages 20 BOD, 40 STUN (14.28% increased average damage, same maximum)

"Maul of the Titans": 13d3 + 1 HKA (max: 40 BODY, 120 STUN): 40+60 = 100 active points, averages 27 BOD, 54 STUN, a 22.73% increase in damage output.

d3 for the win!

[Mister E]

Normal Stun Attack
1d2 (max 2 BODY, 2 STUN): 2+1 = 3 active points

60 AP = 20d2 for an average of 20 BOD and 30 STUN. I'll use it for increased knockback, penetrating attacks and, in Heroic games, attacks that are expected to kill rather than stun. That average of 1 BOD per die beats a 4d6 Killing Attack by a substantial margin (although I also have to punch through normal defenses). Also great for automotons, Entangles and Barriers!

[...]
1d12: 2+6 = 8 active points
[...]
1d100: 2+50 = 52 active points

Hard to get 60 AP - I guess 1d100 + 1d12, for 50.5 + 6.5 = 57 average STUN and 2 average BOD

Compare...
1d100 (max 2 BODY, 100 STUN) "plus" 1d12 (max +2 BODY, +12 STUN): 2+100 "plus" 2+6 = 60 active points

to...
20d2 (max 40 BODY, 40 STUN): 40+20= 60 active points.

1d100+1d12 totals a max of (2+100+2+12=) 116 overall points of damage, most of which is stun. SLAM! Chances are this volatile normal stun attack will knock out the target. It is virtually useless vs. anything that takes no stun.

"Automotons, Entangles and Barriers! Oh, my!" ~(Captain Slam)

20d2 totals a max of (40+40=) 80 overall points of damage, half of which is body. This is 36 overall points less than 1d100+1d12. Chances are the target will be killed before being knocked out.

[edit]:

Removed some brainstorming.

[Mister E]

After reviewing by my last post it seems obvious to me that basing active points on the maximum effects is inferior to basing them on standard effects.

[edit]:

When following trends of the max effects it seems possible to figure the active points of dice under d2 (e.g., d0, d1/2, d1, etc.) but the results are nonsense.

Dice under d2 are nothing other than the standard effects of higher dice. That is to say, they don't exist. There's no such thing.

[conclusion]:

A normal damage d2 attack has a standard effect of 1 BODY (2 ap) & 1 STUN (+1 ap) for 3 active points... rather than a max effect of 2 BODY (2 ap) & 2 STUN (1 ap) for 3 active points. =P

The distinction is subtle.

[Hugh Neilson]

1d100+1d12 totals a max of (2+100+2+12=) 116 overall points of damage, most of which is stun. SLAM! Chances are this volatile normal stun attack will do body damage from spillover stun that exceeds both the target's defenses & total STUN. It is almost certain that the target will be knocked out. It is virtually useless vs. anything that takes no stun.

20d2 totals a max of (40+40=) 80 overall points of damage, half of which is body. This is 36 overall points less than 1d100+1d12. Chances are the target will be killed before being knocked out.

Put the two in a Multipower and away we go! I'll use my 30d2 attack on things that take no Stun, and my d100 + d12 attack against targets I want to KO. Even a Normal will usually take no BOD, so no need to hold back!

BTW, where are you getting "lots of STUN means the attack does BOD" from? I'm not certain the "STUN damage at least equal to BOD damage" rule is, or isn't, in 6th, but I've never seen a "death from massive STUN" rule. It would make NND's much less friendly!

[Mister E]

BTW, where are you getting "lots of STUN means the attack does BOD" from? I'm not certain the "STUN damage at least equal to BOD damage" rule is, or isn't, in 6th, but I've never seen a "death from massive STUN" rule. It would make NND's much less friendly!

My mistake. I was thinking about how you can burn STUN to perform actions when your END runs out. Ignore me. I have attempted to fix the offending post. =P

[beyond that]:

While pondering non-existent d1s, d1/2s, and d0s yesterday, I had an idea about inverting the STUN & BODY rolled to create two new prototype dice (Inverted Normal Damage & Inverted Killing) out of the original two archetypes (Normal Damage & Killing). It's simple and likewise inspired by The Main Man's method for determining active points for unusual dice.

Just switch the BODY & STUN and you get Inverted dice rolls.

Inverted Normal Damage Attacks
d100 (standard effects: 50 BODY, 1 STUN) 100+1= 101 active points
d20 (standard effects: 10 BODY, 1 STUN) 20+1= 21 active points
d12 (standard effects: 6 BODY, 1 STUN) 12+1= 13 active points
d10 (standard effects: 5 BODY, 1 STUN) 10+1= 11 active points
d8 (standard effects: 4 BODY, 1 STUN) 8+1= 9 active points
d6 (standard effects: 3 BODY, 1 STUN) 6+1= 7 active points
d4 (standard effects: 2 BODY, 1 STUN) 4+1= 5 active points [1 DC]
d3 (standard effects: 1.5 BODY, 1 STUN) 3+1= 4 active points
d2 (standard effects: 1 BODY, 1 STUN) 2+1= 3 active points [which is no different than the non-inverted form]

Inverted Killing Attacks
d100 (standard effects: 150 BODY, 50 STUN) 300+50= 350 active points
d20 (standard effects: 30 BODY, 10 STUN) 60+10= 70 active points
d12 (standard effects: 18 BODY, 6 STUN) 36+6= 42 active points
d10 (standard effects: 15 BODY, 5 STUN) 30+5= 35 active points
d8 (standard effects: 12 BODY, 4 STUN) 24+4= 28 active points
d6 (standard effects: 9 BODY, 3 STUN) 18+3= 21 active points
d4 (standard effects: 6 BODY, 2 STUN) 12+2= 14 active points
d3 (standard effects: 4.5 BODY, 1.5 STUN) 9+1.5= 10.5 active points
d2 (standard effects: 3 BODY, 1 STUN) 6+1= 7 active points

[Hugh Neilson]

Based on a minimum 1 STUN per BOD taken, the inverted dice don't work. Even without that, doing BOD is generally more problematic than STUN - few characters have more BOD than STUN, and it takes much longer to recover.

[Killer Shrike]

Well...in the D&D 3e -> HERO 5e conversion materials, I presented a dice approximation / conversion from D&D dice to HERO dice. You could just use the non-D6's instead, I suppose.


DnD dice to HERO System dice

[Mister E]

Based on a minimum 1 STUN per BOD taken, the inverted dice don't work.

Yes, according to the book, but this is not necessarily true. Change inverted dice to a minumum 1 BODY per STUN taken.

This lets non-resistant defenses work vs. the BODY of inverted killing attacks, but lets the STUN (& the minimum of BODY) through. Correct?

Even without that, doing BOD is generally more problematic than STUN - few characters have more BOD than STUN, and it takes much longer to recover.

This is all true. Likewise, monsters that get up after you defeat them are problematic, too. =)

Inverting STUN & BODY could be a made into a maneuver that was limited in some unique way.

What if inverted attacks were at 1/2 initiative? Would this affect how problematic inverted attacks were?

What if inverted attacks were suggested only for campaigns where DEX costs 2 pts (rather than 1)?

[Mister E]

Well...in the D&D 3e -> HERO 5e conversion materials, I presented a dice approximation / conversion from D&D dice to HERO dice. You could just use the non-D6's instead, I suppose.


DnD dice to HERO System dice

Isn't everybody already doing this? =)

[Hugh Neilson]

Yes, according to the book, but this is not necessarily true. Change inverted dice to a minumum 1 BODY per STUN taken.

This lets non-resistant defenses work vs. the BODY of inverted killing attacks, but lets the STUN (& the minimum of BODY) through. Correct?

Not sure what we're getting at here - normal defenses working against KA BOD would help a bit, I suppose, but wouldn't attacks designed to kill logically be high BOD, so normal defenses becoming more useful may not be a good fit. Anyway, for 12 DC, would you rather average 14 BOD vs rDEF, or 42 BOD vs normal DEF? Seems the latter will kill the typical Super in a 60 AP game pretty quickly.

This is all true. Likewise, monsters that get up after you defeat them are problematic, too. =)

Inverting STUN & BODY could be a made into a maneuver that was limited in some unique way.

What if inverted attacks were at 1/2 initiative? Would this affect how problematic inverted attacks were?

What if inverted attacks were suggested only for campaigns where DEX costs 2 pts (rather than 1)?

So Char 1 can attack first and get some STUN through, then Char 2 gets to attack and inflict the same amount of BOD on Char 1. I wonder who will win that fight...

[Mister E]

Not sure what we're getting at here - normal defenses working against KA BOD would help a bit, I suppose, but wouldn't attacks designed to kill logically be high BOD, so normal defenses becoming more useful may not be a good fit.

I don't know what it's good for, but I think it's perfect. =)

Anyway, for 12 DC, would you rather average 14 BOD vs rDEF, or 42 BOD vs normal DEF? Seems the latter will kill the typical Super in a 60 AP game pretty quickly.

I reckon so.

So Char 1 can attack first and get some STUN through, then Char 2 gets to attack and inflict the same amount of BOD on Char 1. I wonder who will win that fight...

Roshambo?

[edit]:

Something to think about before buying STUN Only (-0) for normal damage attacks is how much BODY damage you are losing.

a) With "regular" normal damage dice, the higher the count on the die (d100 being the highest) and the fewer dice, the better for STUN Only (-0).
b) With "inverted" normal damage dice, the lower the count on the die (d2 being the lowest) and the more dice, the better for STUN Only (-0).

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't know what it's good for, but I think it's perfect. =)

Assuming you want a high body count and routine halting of the game while the players make new characters, I suppose so. Any character that can handle getting pounded with attacks that average 42 BOD will never be KO'd by attacks averaging 42 Stun, so killing the enemy becomes the only practical means of winning a combat. May as well just get rid of Stun altogether and play with Blasts that do 12d6 Hit Points (BOD).

Something to think about before buying STUN Only (-0) for normal damage attacks is how much BODY damage you are losing.

a) With "regular" normal damage dice, the higher the count on the die (d100 being the highest) and the fewer dice, the better for STUN Only (-0).
b) With "inverted" normal damage dice, the lower the count on the die (d2 being the lowest) and the more dice, the better for STUN Only (-0).

With inverted dice in the game, why would anyone take "Stun Only"? Unless the characters buy BOD up and sell STUN down, taking a target down with high BOD, low STUN attacks will be the most effective approach. And they will want to do so quickly - being the target of one of those attacks will quickly make it "new character time", unless your concept includes Regeneration (preferably from death).