6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

[Hugh Neilson]

I disliked the neutering of Transfer in 5e. It's a Drain and an Aid combined, but I have to buy separate advantages to increase the duration or broaden the effect of both the Drain and the Aid? I'm paying for the advantage on both components, not on just one! It would have been cheaper to buy a linked Drain and Aid by the time we apply the relevant limitations.

[Christopher]

I asked Steve about the old power Transfer and he refered me to pages in a book I can't get yet (I only have the Basic Rulebook and APG1). So, I take it that 'Transfer' (the special effect) is more than using Linked the power Drain for the power Aid, right? What else do I need (like what advantage or limitation do I need to use one dice roll for both powers like the original power)?

That is effectively it. There is anotehr writeup in Hero System Martial Arts (HSMA), that uses a different approach...

I would declare it as a variant of the Standard Effect rule

That is exaclty how it was done with a Transfer in HSMA. Standart Effect: Whatever is rolled on the Drain.

I have a question since we are on the subject of Transfer. What is the mechanical reason for needing Trigger? They are already Linked, so don't both Aid and Drain go off at the same time? Is the Trigger Advantage necessary because Aid and Drain affect two different targets (Aid being the character and Drain being the victim)? Just wondering. I re-read Linked and Trigger and could not really come up with the reason on my own. Thanks.

Drain is an Attack Action. Aid is an Attack Action. And you can't do two attack actions in teh same phase. So the only way is to make the Aid Triggered (0-phase).
You could propably fake this with Multiattack (attack your target with the Drain and yourself with the Aid), but that wouldn't be effectvie (you would be on 1/2 DCV and suffer - to your attack).

[Hugh Neilson]

Drain is an Attack Action. Aid is an Attack Action. And you can't do two attack actions in teh same phase. So the only way is to make the Aid Triggered (0-phase).
You could propably fake this with Multiattack (attack your target with the Drain and yourself with the Aid), but that wouldn't be effectvie (you would be on 1/2 DCV and suffer - to your attack).

I believe it is accepted as a Multiple Power Attack, but the fact there are two separate targets makes that an exception to the usual requirements for such attacks.

[Christopher]

I believe it is accepted as a Multiple Power Attack, but the fact there are two separate targets makes that an exception to the usual requirements for such attacks.

Do you mean combined Attack or Multiple Attack here?
Because Multiple Attack has no propblem being targeted at "multilpe Targets" and it doesn't even suffers an additional penalty for it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Do you mean combined Attack or Multiple Attack here?
Because Multiple Attack has no propblem being targeted at "multilpe Targets" and it doesn't even suffers an additional penalty for it.

I mean a Multiple Power Attack - a single attack roll against a single target using multiple attack powers. Unlike Multiple Attack, it does not suffer from OCV or DCV penalties. I suspect 6e changed the term to "combined attack" - apologies for the outdated nomenclature.

Looking at the Stun Transfer in the book, the Aid incorporates a Trigger to be book legal

Drain STUN 3d6 (30 Active Points); Unified Power (-¼) (total cost: 24 points) plus Aid STUN 3d6, Trigger (when character uses Drain, activating Trigger takes no
time, Trigger immediately automatically resets; +1) (36 Active Points); Linked (-½), Unified Power (-¼), Only Aid Self (-1) (total cost: 13 points). Total cost: 37 points.

Comparing this to 3d6 Transfer in 5e, the 5e version cost 45 points, but only cost 1.5 END per 1d6. This costs 2.2 END per 1d6 (ignoring rounding in both cases, as it will vary with the number of dice). Hmmm...

Drain STUN 3d6 (30 Active Points); Unified Power (-¼), 1.5x END (-1/4 - every full multiple being -1/2) (total cost: 20 points) plus Aid STUN 3d6, Trigger (when character uses Drain, activating Trigger takes no time, Trigger immediately automatically resets; +1, No END Cost; +1/2; (45 Active Points); Linked (-½), Unified Power (-¼), Only Aid Self (-1) (total cost: 16 points). Total cost: 36 points.

Now it costs 1.5 END per 1d6 again. Unlike the 5e version, even when Aid is max'ed out, the drain will still function. Advantages like increased recovery time or multiple abilities to the full AP (ie both Aid and Drain) will enhance both the Aid and Drain aspects.


It also removes the "what if it's AoE" question - only the Drain would be AoE.

The Aid should have a further limitation, capped at points Drained. Even going with the "standard effect meaning equal die rolls" which seems a reasonable +0 to me, the Aid will still work even if my target has 20 Power Defense. Unless Power Defense is pretty common in the game, -1/4 should suffice, saving 1 point per 3d6.

More complicated on the character sheet, certainly, but it seems a significant improvement over the much neutered 5e version.

[Mister E]

Looking at the Stun Transfer in the book, the Aid incorporates a Trigger to be book legal

Is this because there are two targets?

It also removes the "what if it's AoE" question - only the Drain would be AoE.

Otherwise the AoE of a Transfer would need to be made explicate in the AoE advantage itself. Is that right?

If AoE drain effects (rather than AoE aid effects) were the standard for Transfer, then AoE aid effects would require specification by process of elimination. =P

Drain STUN 3d6 (30 Active Points); Unified Power (-¼) (total cost: 24 points) plus Aid STUN 3d6, Trigger (when character uses Drain, activating Trigger takes no
time, Trigger immediately automatically resets; +1) (36 Active Points); Linked (-½), Unified Power (-¼), Only Aid Self (-1) (total cost: 13 points). Total cost: 37 points.

[based on the above build for continuity]:

How would you build a transfer that healed you when you were wounded & aided you when you were at full health?

Isn't that a Drain unified w/ a linked Aid(or)Heal, no END cost, self-only, multipower framework... that is triggered by the Drain? Or would that be illegal?


~ Mister E ("Come in 6evol1. 6evol1 do you read me? This is Mr. E speaking. 6evol1 are you there? Hello? 6evol1?")

[Christopher]

Is this because there are two targets?

No, it's beacuse both Drain and Aid require an Attack Action. Only with trigger you can use Aid in the same phase/action you use Drain.

How would you build a transfer that healed you when you were wounded & aided you when you were at full health?

We can built either a Heal or Aid (Body and Stun)*. Since both Aid and Heal are considered attack actions, the built is effectively the same. Of course the limitation to the Drain Roll could be more relevant, consdiering how healing effects stack. And of course the AP/Die Ratio for healing is worser than for Aid.

*unless you do somethign wierd like making a Aid/heal Multipower and put all the advantages and limitations of the Aid Part on the Multipower as whole.

[Mister E]

No, it's beacuse both Drain and Aid require an Attack Action. Only with trigger you can use Aid in the same phase/action you use Drain.

I'm not trying to be contrary... but if the target of both powers is the same then you can do a multiple power attack with one action.

Whereas if "self" is the target for the Aid, no multiple power attack is possible, & Trigger is needed to do it with one action. Otherwise it takes two actions.

We can built either a Heal or Aid (Body and Stun)*. Since both Aid and Heal are considered attack actions, the built is effectively the same. Of course the limitation to the Drain Roll could be more relevant, consdiering how healing effects stack. And of course the AP/Die Ratio for healing is worser than for Aid.

*unless you do somethign wierd like making a Aid/heal Multipower and put all the advantages and limitations of the Aid Part on the Multipower as whole.

Awesome. =)

[Hugh Neilson]

Is this because there are two targets?

Yup - with one target, Combined Attack. But two would technically require a Multiple Attack, with all the penalties that entails.

Otherwise the AoE of a Transfer would need to be made explicate in the AoE advantage itself. Is that right?

Well, it could mean we add Aid together for all the Drained targets. It could mean you get the highest, or average, or lowest, drained in the area. I believe the FAQ ruled that you divided points of effect between all the targets in the area, which made AOE Transfer a pretty poor point investment.

How would you build a transfer that healed you when you were wounded & aided you when you were at full health?

Isn't that a Drain unified w/ a linked Aid(or)Heal, no END cost, self-only, multipower framework... that is triggered by the Drain? Or would that be illegal?

I think you'd have to buy the Aid and Heal separately, probably with Lockout to show that only one works at a time. You could always have both work at the same time, but put a limitation on the Aid that it is reduced by points healed. You'd likely want Reduced Re-Use on the Heal as well.

[Mister E]

Yup - with one target, Combined Attack. But two would technically require a Multiple Attack, with all the penalties that entails.

Clarified.

Well, it could mean we add Aid together for all the Drained targets. It could mean you get the highest, or average, or lowest, drained in the area. I believe the FAQ ruled that you divided points of effect between all the targets in the area, which made AOE Transfer a pretty poor point investment.

Ouch.

I think you'd have to buy the Aid and Heal separately, probably with Lockout to show that only one works at a time. You could always have both work at the same time, but put a limitation on the Aid that it is reduced by points healed. You'd likely want Reduced Re-Use on the Heal as well.

I keep forgetting about Lockout!