Kickstarter question

[Derek Hiemforth]

I know that when the initial goal for Book of the Empress was met, a secondary goal was set. Is it possible to set up a "tiered" goal like that from the beginning, where differing levels of success actually affect how the product is done? For example, would it be possible to set up something like this (numbers just for sake of illustration):

$5000	If this is the highest goal level reached, the product will be written and given basic layout, but with no artwork, and published in PDF only.
$7500	If this is the highest goal level reached, the product will be written and given full layout (including B&W artwork), but published in PDF only.
$10,000	If this is the highest goal level reached, the product will be written and given full layout (including B&W artwork), and published as a softcover B&W book.
$20,000	If this is the highest goal level reached, the product will be written and given full layout (including color artwork), and published as a softcover color book.
$30,000	If this is the highest goal level reached, the product will be written and given full layout (including color artwork), and published as a hardcover color book.

If something like this is possible, would you be interested in approaching a product that way? (For Hero Games, or any licensed publishers who might want to chime in, "interest" in this context would be interest in doing such a Kickstarter; for customers, "interest" would be interest in supporting such a Kickstarter.)

[Beast]

problem is I do not want a PDF
So if I joined it would be on the condition of getting the $10,000 level and giving around 50$

you need to set a defined goal
now if you do not meet that high goal there is nothing stopping you from resetting lowering the goal to the next level down

what I'm getting at is if I give for a book level ,I want a book, not a PDF for 50$
if your goal is sliding, so would be my level of commitment

use the K.I.S.S. system

I would suggest a poll at the start to find out what people want/afford/think what it's worth
set your 1 goal and have at it from there

[mattingly]

I know of at least one band who offered a reward of double their actual goal of recording their album. That reward was that they would not record their album. Or actually, they would record a single copy of it, and give it to the funder along with the masters, so that no one else would ever have it.

[dmjalund]

I know of at least one band who offered a reward of double their actual goal of recording their album. That reward was that they would not record their album. Or actually, they would record a single copy of it, and give it to the funder along with the masters, so that no one else would ever have it.

Sounds like a band who have thoer priorities straight

[Steve Long]

Derek -- some Kickstarters do define their secondary and tertiary goals in advance and tell you what they'll be from the get-go. However, I've never seen one set up in quite the level of detail you describe, and there's no way to do a literal "sliding scale" with KS such as I think you're describing. You have to set a specific goal when you launch the project; presumably in your scheme it would be the lowest amount listed.

On the one hand, there is a certain appeal to structuring things that way. If nothing else it gives the potential backer a pretty precise idea of what things cost. On the downside, it could create some "choice paralysis" or other confusion in backers, and to some backers it may seem a little "extortionistic" (that sounds too pejorative for what I mean, but you get the point).

I considered a model something like that for Mythic Hero, because it's going to be so expensive to create and publish. I still haven't entirely rejected the idea, for that matter. But by and large I think success is more likely if you start out with a defined, worthy goal and shoot for that.

[ngross]

Since I am new to Kickstarter, I am not sure how often the Secondary goals help things. I do not really know the back end of the business (printing, shipping, and artwork costs), but would it be easier/better to do most of your goals in the levels of sponsorship available? Not sure if there is a sweet spot in a print run. Also, can you introduce new sponsorship levels when a goal is reached?

Using your example:
$10,000 - Funding goal.
$20,000 - All publications/PDFs have color covers and artwork.
$30,000 - Hardcover book sponsorship becomes available.

Sponsorship levels:
$ -- donation
$$ -- PDF (Full layout)
$$+5 -- PDF (Full Layout) + PDF (print friendly, simple, no art layout)
$$$ -- Softcover
$$$+10 -- Softcover + PDF (Both versions)
$$$$$ -- Signed/Plated Hardcover + PDF (Both Versions) (only X available - sweet spot for very small print run).

The following only appear if the $30,000 goal is reached.
$$$$ - Hardcover + PDF (Full Layout) + PDF (print friendly/simple layout)

Can you also update/increase your sponsorship level if new levels appear? I honestly did not pay too much attention to any issues that popped up with the $150 level was suddenly added to the Empress Kickstarter.

Due to all of the changes around here, there is quite a few people showing interest and asking questions about using Kickstarter. I wonder if the people interested could get together and try to get a 'How to host your HERO RPG ides on Kickstarter' primer together. I cannot remember if there has been any sort of poll on what people are buying from Hero? PDF, Print, PDF/Print combo, HD pack, etc... Unless you think that you can sweet talk Jason out of the quantities sold on the genre of your idea versus the actual settings.

Good luck.

Norm.

[gojira]

problem is I do not want a PDF
So if I joined it would be on the condition of getting the $10,000 level and giving around 50$

You don't have to want the reward to support the project. I didn't want a copy of BotE but made a small donation anyway. I realize that a donation may not always be what you feel is appropriate (Hero Games is a business after all, not a charity) or be able to afford, but it is an option.

use the K.I.S.S. system

I would suggest a poll at the start to find out what people want/afford/think what it's worth
set your 1 goal and have at it from there

This much I do very much agree with. Some market research I'm sure is essential for success. I'd recommend starting with the least expensive option for Mythic Hero. BotE seemed to struggle just a bit there at the end; I'd be concerned that asking for more than 15,000 dollars might not get off the ground.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Thanks, Steve. In a way, it's too bad you (apparently) can't set up conditional tiers and pledges. Because I do think that, for some people, their pledge amounts, and their willingness to pledge at all, could be affected by the shape of the project (for example, Beast noted above that he would not be interested in PDF). Different customers might be willing to pledge different amounts, depending on what the final product ends up being. (Though you'd probably still want to keep the possible options there relatively few to avoid choice paralysis.) For example, let's say a book was being pitched, and could end up as a B&W PDF-only, a B&W softcover, or a color hardcover (and presumably a color PDF):

Customer	PDF Only (B&W)	Softcover (B&W)	Hardcover (Color)
Jack's Pledge	$25	$25	$25
Jane's Pledge	$25	$50	$75
John's Pledge	---	---	$100

In this model, Jack wants the product, but prefers it in PDF regardless of how it might be published physically, and that desire is reflected in the amount he's willing to pledge. Jane wants it in color hardcover (and PDF) if possible, but is willing to accept it in B&W softcover or PDF-only if those are the highest goals reached, and her pledge would increase as the product level increased. John doesn't care at all about the PDF (even though he'd probably get one anyway as part of his pledge), and is only willing to pledge for the book in color hardcover, but he's willing to pledge a small premium beyond that level for an autographed and numbered copy.

It would be great if the system allowed for this. Each possible format could have a goal amount, and when the kickstarter closed, the system could assess the conditionals...

The pledge total for color hardcover would be 'X;' does that amount reach the necessary level for hardcover? If yes, then you're done; color hardcover is funded, and the customers pay their pledge amounts in the fourth column. If no, continue.

The pledge total for B&W softcover would be 'Y;' does that amount reach the necessary level for softcover? If yes, then you're done; B&W softcover is funded, and the customers pay their pledge amounts in the third column. If no, continue.

The pledge total for B&W PDF-only would be 'Z;' does that amount reach the necessary level for PDF-only? If yes, then B&W PDF-only is funded, and the customers pay their pledge amounts in the second column. If no, then the project is not funded.

(Additionally or alternately, I suppose it's theoretically possible that softcover could actually out-pledge hardcover, even if both possibilities met their goals, if there were enough people who wanted softcover, but specifically didn't want hardcover. In that case, I suppose you could do softcover instead, because it was the highest pledge-getter...)

[Steve Long]

I'd recommend starting with the least expensive option for Mythic Hero.

That is definitely a possible approach, and it has some strong points in its favor. But that's not the way I'm going. I don't want to be locked into producing a book I can't be proud of simply because I raised the bare minimum necessary. I want MH to be a book I can show off, that will be everything I want it to be. So I'm going to ask for the amount necessary to make that happen.

BotE seemed to struggle just a bit there at the end

On the contrary, BotE reached goal in only 13 days; it didn't struggle at all. To the extent pledges tapered off thereafter, I at least attribute that to the "complacency factor" -- "Hey, it's succeeded, great, now I don't have to worry about pledging because I can just get it later." I suspect many KS projects experience the same thing. And even with that we raised over five thousand dollars beyond goal before the project ended. I don't really see that as a struggle at all. I see it as validation that Hero fans are willing to step up and put their money where their mouth is to make a book they want come into existence.

I'd be concerned that asking for more than 15,000 dollars might not get off the ground.

As well you should be -- I absolutely am. MH will require a lot more than BotE earned if it's going to succeed. But as I said, I'm not going to shoot for some lesser goal and end up creating a book I'm not satisfied with.

After the project gets going I'll probably be discussing the associated costs and how everything breaks down on my website, so stay tuned.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Can you also update/increase your sponsorship level if new levels appear? I honestly did not pay too much attention to any issues that popped up with the $150 level was suddenly added to the Empress Kickstarter.

I can answer this one. Yes, you can increase (or decrease/cancel) your pledge at any time before the project is funded.

[Steve Long]

Derek -- I see what you're saying, and I can see some benefits to it. But by and large that sounds like waaaay more confusion than I want to deal with, either as a project creator or as a potential backer. And particularly as a project creator, I'd be concerned about handicapping my ability to reach my desired goal (whatever that may be) by letting backers favor some lesser goal.

I get that some people only want a PDF, or don't want a PDF at all, or prefer one type of book to another, or whatever. And that's cool; there's nothing wrong with having preferences. But unfortunately, even in today's highly digitized world, where we're often presented with a myriad of options, not everything can be so "customizable." As a small (one might even say ultra-tiny ) producer in a very specific ecological niche in a marginal hobby industry, I can really only go so far down the route of "options." I think, in the end, it's best if I pick a goal and stick closely to it.

Still, if Kickstarter ever makes possible the sort of thing you're describing, I'll definitely look into it closely. It might be just the thing for some projects!

[Steve Long]

Can you also update/increase your sponsorship level if new levels appear?

Absolutely. That's one reason for offering an incentive to reach a secondary goal if the initial goal is achieved early -- you want to encourage people who are already interested to pledge even more to get the new goodie.

Similarly, you can reduce your pledge (or even remove it entirely), but we don't like to talk about that.

[Steve Long]

I wonder if the people interested could get together and try to get a 'How to host your HERO RPG ides on Kickstarter' primer together.

There are lots of great bits and pieces of info out there. I'm planning to do a post on my blog about my perspectives as a first-time Kickstarterer, and I will list the ones I found that proved particularly helpful to me... and hopefully my blog will add to the fund of stored knowledge.

[Steve Long]

I would suggest a poll at the start to find out what people want/afford/think what it's worth

That idea isn't entirely without merit -- you may've seen the thread over on HERO System Discussion where I essentially started out doing this -- but it's not always a good basis for planning.

The fact is that the cost to produce Book X is Y (and as the project creator you try to estimate Y as closely as possible). If you want to do this sort of thing professionally you have to earn Y through your Kickstarter, or you're losing money. That's what you have to plan around. If that means you have to ask for more than people will pay, so be it... but letting customers dictate what you charge regardless of cost of goods is a sure way to bankruptcy.

And that's especially true in the RPG industry, where consumers have historically been unwilling to pay what it really costs to produce books. The result can be seen in the constant stream of companies who've gone out of business because they simply can't make enough to keep the doors open trying to charge mass-market prices for books that should have high niche/collectible prices.

And I for one am not going to make that mistake. When you see me put up a Kickstarter, the amount is what it's going to cost to produce the book and "keep me in business." I expect more than a few of you are going to be shocked at the amounts, but so be it. I'd rather fail that way than succeed in a way that takes everything I own.

One of the great things about Kickstarter -- maybe the greatest, from my perspective -- is that it lets me determine if there's enough consumer interest that I can produce a book without losing money. Whether that interest is expressed in 1000 people pledging $10 each, or ten people pledging $1,000 apiece, doesn't really matter as long as the overall average financial commitment is enough to meet the goal. One guy who's really, really, really interested in a book and willing to put a lot of money toward it makes up for a lot of people with lesser degrees of interest.

[Beast]

Steve, what I was pointing out was that Derek's sliding goal would be a hinder to being part of it
It would give a reward based on what level of funding it achieved
For me that means a hard or soft cover book(pdf is a bonus I can have on my tablet or laptop not the main goal)

As to what Gojria said making a donation
If it is worth buying for me I'll make it happen, but I don't have money to just toss away

That idea isn't entirely without merit -- you may've seen the thread over on HERO System Discussion where I essentially started out doing this -- but it's not always a good basis for planning.

The fact is that the cost to produce Book X is Y (and as the project creator you try to estimate Y as closely as possible). If you want to do this sort of thing professionally you have to earn Y through your Kickstarter, or you're losing money. That's what you have to plan around. If that means you have to ask for more than people will pay, so be it... but letting customers dictate what you charge regardless of cost of goods is a sure way to bankruptcy.

And that's especially true in the RPG industry, where consumers have historically been unwilling to pay what it really costs to produce books. The result can be seen in the constant stream of companies who've gone out of business because they simply can't make enough to keep the doors open trying to charge mass-market prices for books that should have high niche/collectible prices.

And I for one am not going to make that mistake. When you see me put up a Kickstarter, the amount is what it's going to cost to produce the book and "keep me in business." I expect more than a few of you are going to be shocked at the amounts, but so be it. I'd rather fail that way than succeed in a way that takes everything I own.

One of the great things about Kickstarter -- maybe the greatest, from my perspective -- is that it lets me determine if there's enough consumer interest that I can produce a book without losing money. Whether that interest is expressed in 1000 people pledging $10 each, or ten people pledging $1,000 apiece, doesn't really matter as long as the overall average financial commitment is enough to meet the goal. One guy who's really, really, really interested in a book and willing to put a lot of money toward it makes up for a lot of people with lesser degrees of interest.