how does anyone ever begin playing this system?!

[Zen Archer]

Can't say that I know. I'm still reeling from the idea that one would want to *prevent* Elvis from being resurrected.

[aylwin13]

Fess up, who stole his dog?

I thought you did.

[lemming]

He stole the dog pants.

[Balabanto]

Can't say that I know. I'm still reeling from the idea that one would want to *prevent* Elvis from being resurrected.

Heh. Well, buy the supplement and find out.

[The Main Man]

youbeststartbelievingintrollthreads.jpg

[dan2448]

The original question may have been phrased too confrontationally, and may be based on some flawed premises. But as someone who began playing Champions with 2e in the early 1980s, and who still owns every subsequent edition, including about 15 or so 5e Champions books (and a handful of 6e books) despite no longer playing, I think that there are some core truths to what he said.

To the uninitiated, I do think that core rules, which have balooned over the years and subsequent editions to multiple volumes totaling well over 500 pages (with uninspired cover graphics), are off-putting. (My 2e Champions rulebook is 88 pages. 3e is just over 125.) If you're familiar with the Hero System, these incremental additions add nuance and flexibility. If you know nothing about it, however, I don't see how this attracts you compared to, say, DC Adventures, with its licensed characters, single rule book, and Alex Ross cover art. As a teenager in the early 1980s, my friends and I never, ever would have begun playing Champions if it had required buying two volumes of core rules (at $39.99 each) totalling well over 500 pages, as well as the Champions sourcebook, a third book. As a long-time Champions fan, I enjoyed these 6e books and appreciate their detail and nuance. But as a novitiate, they would've been a total non-starter.

And with regard to the website, frankly I've found it less user-friendly than many sites for other pen-and-paper RPGs, to say nothing of other websites in general. I remain a regular reader of posts on this forum (and a very occasional poster) because of my long-time love of the game (and the quality of the posts and active participants), and despite the somewhat clunky architecture of the site.

[Kap]

The original question may have been phrased too confrontationally, and may be based on some flawed premises. But as someone who began playing Champions with 2e in the early 1980s, and who still owns every subsequent edition, including about 15 or so 5e Champions books (and a handful of 6e books) despite no longer playing, I think that there are some core truths to what he said.

To the uninitiated, I do think that core rules, which have balooned over the years and subsequent editions to multiple volumes totaling well over 500 pages (with uninspired cover graphics), are off-putting. (My 2e Champions rulebook is 88 pages. 3e is just over 125.) If you're familiar with the Hero System, these incremental additions add nuance and flexibility. If you know nothing about it, however, I don't see how this attracts you compared to, say, DC Adventures, with its licensed characters, single rule book, and Alex Ross cover art. As a teenager in the early 1980s, my friends and I never, ever would have begun playing Champions if it had required buying two volumes of core rules (at $39.99 each) totalling well over 500 pages, as well as the Champions sourcebook, a third book. As a long-time Champions fan, I enjoyed these 6e books and appreciate their detail and nuance. But as a novitiate, they would've been a total non-starter.

And with regard to the website, frankly I've found it less user-friendly than many sites for other pen-and-paper RPGs, to say nothing of other websites in general. I remain a regular reader of posts on this forum (and a very occasional poster) because of my long-time love of the game (and the quality of the posts and active participants), and despite the somewhat clunky architecture of the site.

Could not agree more. If I hadn't started with 2nd edition (still my favorite), I wouldn't have bought Hero's later editions at all. Too voluminous and intimidating. I still haven't bought 6th because I have never seen a copy to flip thru and assess and because on principle I don't like having to buy 2 expensive books to get the rules (you hear me, D&D?).

[Rigel]

The original question may have been phrased too confrontationally, and may be based on some flawed premises. But as someone who began playing Champions with 2e in the early 1980s, and who still owns every subsequent edition, including about 15 or so 5e Champions books (and a handful of 6e books) despite no longer playing, I think that there are some core truths to what he said.

To the uninitiated, I do think that core rules, which have balooned over the years and subsequent editions to multiple volumes totaling well over 500 pages (with uninspired cover graphics), are off-putting. (My 2e Champions rulebook is 88 pages. 3e is just over 125.) If you're familiar with the Hero System, these incremental additions add nuance and flexibility. If you know nothing about it, however, I don't see how this attracts you compared to, say, DC Adventures, with its licensed characters, single rule book, and Alex Ross cover art. As a teenager in the early 1980s, my friends and I never, ever would have begun playing Champions if it had required buying two volumes of core rules (at $39.99 each) totalling well over 500 pages, as well as the Champions sourcebook, a third book. As a long-time Champions fan, I enjoyed these 6e books and appreciate their detail and nuance. But as a novitiate, they would've been a total non-starter.

Let's be clear. The original post said nothing about the complexity of the rules or size of the rulebook. That being said, I partially agree with you but that's the whole idea behind the Basic Rulebook. In my group, I have a couple of new players who are not familiar with the decades of incremental Hero rules, so they have the Basic Rulebook and it answers 90% of their questions. I, as the GM, use the 6E rule books to answer the remaining 10%. I dare say that a group could just use the BR for all rules answers and wing the rest (which is what you do in other less voluminous systems).

And with regard to the website, frankly I've found it less user-friendly than many sites for other pen-and-paper RPGs, to say nothing of other websites in general. I remain a regular reader of posts on this forum (and a very occasional poster) because of my long-time love of the game (and the quality of the posts and active participants), and despite the somewhat clunky architecture of the site.

I think many of us would agree that the Hero Store is not very user-friendly. If you've used it multiple times, you get used to it and you learn away around. It could certainly be frustrating to new customers.

[dan2448]

Let's be clear. The original post said nothing about the complexity of the rules or size of the rulebook. That being said, I partially agree with you but that's the whole idea behind the Basic Rulebook.

Very true, Rigel, explicitly-speaking. But to me his threshold questions about hero creation software betray a problem that, in my opinion anyway, has plagued the hobby since the first days of AD&D: having rules collected across a series of evocatively-titled rulebooks. (I remember very clearly wondering as a 10 year-old in 1981 whether the AD&D rules were in the "Players Handbook" or in the "Dungeon Masters Guide," or both. Which to buy? I had to ask an older kid who already played.) That then leads directly to a sub-confusion/argument about whether anything other than the "Players Handbook" is really necessary. And then that also leads to a third confusion about the differences between "Basic" D&D and "Advanced" D&D. (And how, if at all, do they relate to one another?)

As a potential new player, by the time I've identified all these 'uncertainties' about the various 6e Champions rule books, I will have already written the game off and moved on to another. And since Hero Games already publishes "Advanced" guides in addition to the core 6e Hero System rulebooks, that likely would've led me to infer that the "Basic" rules were somehow remedial, or for younger kids.

When I first bought 2e Champions and 3e Champions as a teenager in the 1980s, there was no such confusion whatsoever. The rulebook was the rulebook. "Let's go play."

I own both Sidekick for 5e and the 6e Basic Rulebook. I applaud the decision to publish these, but not without these reservations, on reflection.

[Hyper-Man]

So the fact that a functional but entry level version of the rules exist side by side with more complex versions and options to those same 'basic' rules is a detriment?

I call that a feature otherwise known as 'choice'.

It's like going swimming for the first time. Not everyone wants to dive straight into the deep end of the pool. Having the shallow end to begin with is a feature.

[gojira]

So the fact that a functional but entry level version of the rules exist side by side with more complex versions and options to those same 'basic' rules is a detriment?

I believe it is. Several folks have shown up here on these boards and asked "Where do I start?" (We had a spate of such questions just after Champions Online launched.) Many folks here will answer "Start with the Basic Rules." Invariably the next question from them was along the lines of "Is that the complete rules or will I be obliged to buy more books?"

Honest answers to that are "Yes, all of the genre books and supplements assume the full rules; if you don't have at least one person in your group with the full rule set you'll probably be rather lost." And iirc their reaction to that was always "I don't want to have to buy two books, so BR is worthless to me." Some were quite polite about it, some were more blunt, but that's how it fell out. (Again, to my recollection.)

So I've kinda soured on the whole Basic plus Full Rules model. It doesn't really work for many new folks trying the system out for the first time, and I think unfortunately that pushed Hero into a very small niche, where there's an active GM willing to teach players the game. A model that allows solo players and small groups to self-teach would expand Hero's potential market by quite a bit imo.

(And yes, I know Steve Long says the opposite. I still squint at that statement and give it the hairy eyeball; I don't understand how it can be true, even though there's about a 90% chance he's right and I'm wrong.)

[Lord Liaden]

But to me his threshold questions about hero creation software betray a problem that, in my opinion anyway, has plagued the hobby since the first days of AD&D: having rules collected across a series of evocatively-titled rulebooks.

Steve Long made an attempt to address this issue by giving all the 6E books titles so straight forward that, as he put it, "a baboon could understand them." No more alliterative titles for the villains books. The rulebooks are Character Creation and Combat And Adventuring. Ultimate Martial Artist and Ninja HERO have been replaced with HERO System Martial Arts. And so on.

You may legitimately hold that this approach hasn't been effective enough, but at least an attempt was made.

[Lord Liaden]

Several folks have shown up here on these boards and asked "Where do I start?" (We had a spate of such questions just after Champions Online launched.) Many folks here will answer "Start with the Basic Rules." Invariably the next question from them was along the lines of "Is that the complete rules or will I be obliged to buy more books?"

Honest answers to that are "Yes, all of the genre books and supplements assume the full rules; if you don't have at least one person in your group with the full rule set you'll probably be rather lost." And iirc their reaction to that was always "I don't want to have to buy two books, so BR is worthless to me." Some were quite polite about it, some were more blunt, but that's how it fell out. (Again, to my recollection.)

Respectfully, gojira, I would characterize that as an "honest opinion" rather than an "honest answer." My own opinion differs. Having the Basic Rulebook doesn't leave a player lost. The fundamentals, and many of the options, of the system are there. Yes, if playing supers or some fantasy, they'll likely come across material in published source books using elements that aren't in the BR, but (again IMO) those things can usually be interpolated from examples, worked around, or ignored. Other genres don't use close to the full rules, so for those it's rarely an issue at all.

I don't hesitate to recommend the BR to new players, including new HERO GMs, and I never characterize the full rule set as "required" to play.

[Tasha]

It just strikes me as so much whining. I mean, to play Pathfinder with all of the rules options I need like 4 books now all expensive full color hard covers. Not to mention the Campaign book (also hard cover and full color). To GM I need to add at least 1-3 hard covers and like nearly 20 thin perfect bound books. The game adds up and fast. Plus buying the Char Gen program (Hero Lab), and buying all of the data packages for it so you have all of the rules available for Char Gen.

Hero needs 2 books plus a Genre Book. Adding on Martial arts and equipment gets it to 2 hardcover books and 2 soft cover supplements for players to have all of the rules. The APG's are not required since they are "official" house rules.

You can learn how to play by reading the first quarter of 6e2, using the pre gen characters that are also in that book. That's the way we did it in the old days when we didn't have any guidelines on how to build characters and the Villian books had characters that were based on so wildly varying powerlevels, we just had to wing it. ONce you have figured out combat and how skills work, then it's back to book 1 where you learn to build a character. I guess I don't understand how that is so hard. Have we gamers gotten so lazy that reading our books is too hard?

There probably should be a "Basic Champions" that combines the Basic Rulebook with enough Champions Universe that a beginning GM can run a few games. also coming with a removable street map (ie like the one that came with 2e Champions Boxed set) and a couple of adventures you can run using that map. Basic Champions should only come with basic powers, nothing like the full powerset you get in 6e1, but enough to write up any basic hero (inc wolverine clones).

[dan2448]

It just strikes me as so much whining.

There probably should be a "Basic Champions" that combines the Basic Rulebook with enough Champions Universe that a beginning GM can run a few games.

I don't think it's whining. I don't read any of the posts above by existing players to be complaining about the cost or the complexity of the 6e books. We are all familiar with the game. So new rules only add nuance and flexibility.

But this thread is about new players getting started playing Champions. And from the perspective of new players, I think that having the 6e core rules bifurcated into two volumes, supplemented by a third Champions genre book, would be off-putting. Both the combined page length of those three volumes, as well as the total cost (roughly $120). Especially when you compare that to being able to buy a single volume DC Adventures game book on Amazon for about $25 or the upcoming Marvel RPG for less than $15.

It may be that Champions can't, or doesn't want, to try to compete for that 'new gamer' market. (Maybe that market is miniscule today?) But as someone who began playing Champions as a kid 30 years ago, it was a slightly weird sensation to hold the 6e books in my hands, and to like and appreciate them, while simultaneously sensing that there's no way I would've begun playing the game as a kid in its 6e form.

And on reflection, I also don't think that having a parallel set of Basic Rules really works either. As a teenager, I wouldn't have wanted to play the "Basic" version of a game which had a 'regular' version right next to it on the shelf. And even the posts above in this thread over the last 24 hours demonstrate the debate that gets provoked about whether the Basic Rulebook is really a complete set of rules or not.