What do charges cost?

[Sean Waters]

I'm keen to find the cost of 6 bullets.

So, look, here is a gun:

1d6 Killing Attack (Ranged) 6 charges costs you 8 points.
Add an additional clip and it costs 10 points.
Add 3 more clips and it costs 12 points.
Add 7 more clips and it costs 15 points.

So what does it cost to get 6 bullets?

Here is a spot of context for you: I am writing a game and I want to use experience points in a slightly unusual way: some XP can be used to get temporary bonuses, like +1 OCV or +1 DCV or, in this case, you find a bit more ammo. The trouble is that '6 bullets' does not have an absolute cost in Hero - it is relative to the number of bullets you start with, or how many additional bullets you find in a day, which makes it difficult to put a set cost on 'finding another clip'. Yes I could work it out on a case by case basis, or I could just pick a number and go for it, say 2 points for 6 bullets (the cost of going from one clip to two clips). Or even 30 points (the cost of six single charges).

This brings up issues that are difficult because the way the system works there is a 'law of diminishing (or increasing, depending on how you look at it) returns': the more bullets you find the less it costs you per bullet - and that is 'real world counter-intuitive': you MIGHT find a few bullets, your unlikely to find loads.

There may be no way around this, given the strictures of the system and so a fudge may be inevitable, but I would be interested to hear if anyone has any cunning ideas for a work-around?

[Sean Waters]

BTW I know that most guns are built with various other modifiers, but I kept the build intentionally simple to avoid cluttering up the post with unnecessary detail.

Think one of those FPS games where you wander around and scavenge from the bodies of the fallen: new weapons, health packs, and, of course, ammo...

[Christopher]

Principally for Firearms, you only apply the charges that one loading/magazine can hold. You don't take the amount of bullets one may find or the number of magazine into account.
So, ignore magazines altogehter and just figure out what 6 Bullets costs.
Keep in midn that charges also put the weapon and 0 END, so when comparing it to a weapon with no charges the weapon without charges has the +1/2 advantage.

[Doc Democracy]

Interesting question. I think there might be some mileage in the fact that +5 gets you double the items rule that was about for a while. You could consider every clip to be +5 points, though they are independent so possibly 3 points...


Doc

[Hyper-Man]

So is this for a Heroic or Champions game?

If it's for the former why worry about exact costs for 'mundane equipment'. That's what perks and equipment pools are good for.

[Doc Democracy]

I think the answer (if I have read Sean's post properly) is that he is trying to model a first person shooter video game (like Doom).

In my head I see a character shooting several demons and being rewarded with a clip of ammo or equivalents.


Doc

[Hyper-Man]

I think the answer (if I have read Sean's post properly) is that he is trying to model a first person shooter video game (like Doom).

In my head I see a character shooting several demons and being rewarded with a clip of ammo or equivalents.


Doc

So it's a Heroic game. "Charges" are just in-game stuff like spell components. Totally under GM control.

[Martin2]

But with charges, over a specific time frame you get them back. So this simulates at the end of the day you go back and reload your gun from your big box you have in your house / base. So you should have an infinate supply of bullets but you can only carry a mag at a time (if you pay CP's for 1 mag of 6 charges).

So in your game do you plan to have the possibility that the second encounter a day later you could have less than 6 bullets in your gun if you spent the EXP on other skills

So the game mechanics is you only have access to one mag and can only have 6 bullets but a big box that you fill up your one mag and no option to stick a few more in your pocket!

Yes I have a similar problem with my players in a supers game.

"Well I have picked up the 6 grenades from the VIPER agent and I now want to strap them all together and set them off all at once". Says player A.

"Yes I know in real life you could do that and you would have 6 grenades going off at the same time for 6 separate times the damage" Says I "but its really a 8D6 blasts area effect with 6 charges and not a 8D6 Blast auto fire 6 with 6 charges which costs more points to buy in game terms!"

"But I could do it in real life!" Says Player A

"OK I give in, throw 8D6 six times" Says I (but the VIPER agents never get the option to do the same as its not built that way on their sheet).

For you game you could just stick with the "your build more clips into your power so have to price the bigger power".

[casualplayer]

But with charges, over a specific time frame you get them back. So this simulates at the end of the day you go back and reload your gun from your big box you have in your house / base. So you should have an infinate supply of bullets but you can only carry a mag at a time (if you pay CP's for 1 mag of 6 charges).

So in your game do you plan to have the possibility that the second encounter a day later you could have less than 6 bullets in your gun if you spent the EXP on other skills

So the game mechanics is you only have access to one mag and can only have 6 bullets but a big box that you fill up your one mag and no option to stick a few more in your pocket!

Yes I have a similar problem with my players in a supers game.

"Well I have picked up the 6 grenades from the VIPER agent and I now want to strap them all together and set them off all at once". Says player A.

"Yes I know in real life you could do that and you would have 6 grenades going off at the same time for 6 separate times the damage" Says I "but its really a 8D6 blasts area effect with 6 charges and not a 8D6 Blast auto fire 6 with 6 charges which costs more points to buy in game terms!"

"But I could do it in real life!" Says Player A

"OK I give in, throw 8D6 six times" Says I (but the VIPER agents never get the option to do the same as its not built that way on their sheet).

For you game you could just stick with the "your build more clips into your power so have to price the bigger power".

That one's easy, especially with the suggested "doubling of power = +1d6" theory of HERO. 6 8d6 grenades going off simultaneously isn't 6 separate attacks; it's doubled then doubled again for an effective 10d6 mega-grenade.

For the found ammo thing, if you really gotta point it out (and of course you do,) I would make a complicated Aid that increases the effective active points of the power by the cost required for the power to have X more bullets.

[Xavier Onassiss]

For my campaign, I just used the rules for Clips (extra magazines), but I don't see why we can't break this down by points:

For a 60pt attack with a large-ish magazine (20 shots, for example), an extra clip is a +1/4 advantage, and this actually multiplies the ammo times four, giving the weapon 60 extra shots for 15pts. So this breaks down to four shots per point.

For a 25pt attack with a smaller magazine (say, 12 shots), an extra clip would be -1/4 less in limitations, and this doubles the ammo, which is 12 extra shots for 6pts. That's two shots per point.

Tinkering with these numbers will give different results, obviously; I selected them because they give easy-to-use results and because they're fairly typical for different classes of weapons. For a pistol, 25pts is about right; for a rifle, 60pts is probably too high unless power advantages are included.


I'd go with two shots per character point for pistols; four shots per character point for rifles. Not sure about shotguns.

[Doc Democracy]

But with charges, over a specific time frame you get them back. So this simulates at the end of the day you go back and reload your gun from your big box you have in your house / base. So you should have an infinate supply of bullets but you can only carry a mag at a time (if you pay CP's for 1 mag of 6 charges).

So in your game do you plan to have the possibility that the second encounter a day later you could have less than 6 bullets in your gun if you spent the EXP on other skills

Again - have not spoken to Sean about this - but you do not seem to be getting out of the standard HERO paradigm. I think Sean really is looking at the ammo and the power-ups to be temporary things that you do not get back at any time. So yes - if you go for the skill power-up then you do not get the ammo and may run out (or that's how it looks in my imagining of this).

Yes I have a similar problem with my players in a supers game.

"Well I have picked up the 6 grenades from the VIPER agent and I now want to strap them all together and set them off all at once". Says player A.

"Yes I know in real life you could do that and you would have 6 grenades going off at the same time for 6 separate times the damage" Says I "but its really a 8D6 blasts area effect with 6 charges and not a 8D6 Blast auto fire 6 with 6 charges which costs more points to buy in game terms!"

"But I could do it in real life!" Says Player A

"OK I give in, throw 8D6 six times" Says I (but the VIPER agents never get the option to do the same as its not built that way on their sheet).

I find that the usual way around this is to say - yeah, that is a way of doing it. You realise that if you are able to do that, so are the VIPER agents and, given their usual lifespan in combats with you, would be a far more effective way of fighting you. [it also prevents player characters from using their stuff later!]

If you want to do this, expect to see it as a tactic from VIPER agents in future...

Doc

[Christopher]

Yes I have a similar problem with my players in a supers game.

"Well I have picked up the 6 grenades from the VIPER agent and I now want to strap them all together and set them off all at once". Says player A.

"Yes I know in real life you could do that and you would have 6 grenades going off at the same time for 6 separate times the damage" Says I "but its really a 8D6 blasts area effect with 6 charges and not a 8D6 Blast auto fire 6 with 6 charges which costs more points to buy in game terms!"

"But I could do it in real life!" Says Player A

"OK I give in, throw 8D6 six times" Says I (but the VIPER agents never get the option to do the same as its not built that way on their sheet).

For you game you could just stick with the "your build more clips into your power so have to price the bigger power".

Yes, he can use them that way. And of course Viper Agents could use them that way. The only thing is, he cannot keep equipment between adventures unless he paid points for it. And he should propably need the Weapon Familiarity for this. For a character whose Fightign Style is to scavenge weapons, I would even say he should have a cross of Mimik and Gadget VPP big enough to accomodate the weapons (he wouldn't need Weapon Familarilty then, of course).
If the character does such tricks often (more than once or twice per campaign), then he might have to invest points into that ability somehow.

For adding the Attacks:
The could go off all seperately, each rolling damage once. Or you could use any of the methods that allow supers to combine their attack with Teamwork Rolls (inlcuding Enchantment from APG I, wich allows to add 50% of the AP to the leading attack), but that one can get propblematic. It should have some roll for each attack combined that way (Demolitions for grenades) - for any grenade for wich he fails the roll, that one doesn't do any damage (as easy as they combine power, they can negate their power).
Or just add the attacks together as casual did. However you might want to keep any advantages in mind: Any doubling of the power equals +5 AP. So with 4 grenades, you would add 10 AP to the attack, wich might not be taht much after advantages.

[Chris Goodwin]

I would probably look more at Heroic Action Points for temporary bonuses than XP. Maybe 1 HAP for one full weapon reload? Or by weapon type: 1 HAP for a small (pistol) weapon reload, 2 for a medium (shotgun), 3 for a large (sniper rifle), more than that for a BFG.

[Martin2]

Again - have not spoken to Sean about this - but you do not seem to be getting out of the standard HERO paradigm. I think Sean really is looking at the ammo and the power-ups to be temporary things that you do not get back at any time. So yes - if you go for the skill power-up then you do not get the ammo and may run out (or that's how it looks in my imagining of this)
Doc

I was just throwing in the comment to highlight the opposite end to the spectrum of effectively having infinite reloads of your 6 round mag if you have chance to reload it through the week but only allowed to take the 6 rounds with you. Comparing it with the extream of you have 6 rounds and then have to find your rounds after the combat. But if you reload to 6 rounds you can not keep the mags of the similar gun you loot from dead bad guys, unless you pay a few exp to keep them (as well as the 60 MP VIPER gun that my players would like to keep but hate my comment of "you have to spend the points on it to keep it after the end of this scenario").

Equipment is a problem in HERO depending on the setting.

Good luck to Sean on which method you choose though .

I will keep in mind the multiple grenade power increase for the next time they try it though, thanks.

[Ockham's Spoon]

I was going to chime in, but Chris Goodwin pretty much covered what I was going to say, so just read his post again.