Invisibility or Darkness

[Peregrine]

If the special effect of a power vs. Danger Sense is 'self-control of conscious intent' (as per my question on the Rules Questions board), would that be best modeled by Invisibility or Darkness? My first inclination is Invisibility, but I wanted to canvass Herodom Assembled for your input.

[argent]

I would say in most cases Invisibility Vs. Special/Unusual Sense Group(Danger Sense); with or without "fringe", depending on whether you wanted the Danger Sensing character to have an increased chance to detect the danger once the Invisible character got close.

 

OTOH, if the danger was mindless or non-conscious(like most traps), or covered an area, Darkness Vs. Danger Sense might be more appropriate.

[TheEmerged]

Good rule of thumb: if the effect only disguises the user, it's invisibility.

 

Remember that Darkness blocks a sense it affects just like a wall was there. Consider this:

 

X_____Y______Z

 

If X is a danger to Z, and Y has Darkness to Danger Sense, Z can't detect the danger X presents.

[Seenar]

The problem here is that I am not sure I would allow buying once sense group against Danger Sense. There are so many potential Special Effects for Danger Sense after all.

[Monolith]

I would go with Invisibility. When activated, Darkness must be visible to 3 senses (unless bought with the IPE Advantage). Invisibility, on the other hand, by it's very nature is invisible. So every time you turned on your Darkness, everyone would see it coming on.

 

Also keep in mind that if you want the Darkness to travel with you, you would need to load up on a few additional Advantages as well since Darkness cannot normally move with someone.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Seenar

The problem here is that I am not sure I would allow buying once sense group against Danger Sense. There are so many potential Special Effects for Danger Sense after all.

There are a lot of SFX for Infrared Vision as well (So cold you automatically detect heat, so hot you see everything as thermal, IR Goggles, ect). If you are assuming a single power can block all of the different SFX of Infrared, then it should not be any more difficult to block all the SFX of Danger Sense.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Seenar

The problem here is that I am not sure I would allow buying once sense group against Danger Sense. There are so many potential Special Effects for Danger Sense after all.

 

I could see SFX mattering if we were talking about a Dispel Danger Sense or somesuch -- but for sense-affecting powers, it seems to me that how you do the sensing doesn't matter as much as what you're looking for.

 

If Player Z has the ability to detect danger and Player Y has the ability to not look dangerous, does it really matter HOW they do what they do?

[Seenar]

Let me put it this way:

 

Danger Sense is not one sense group, but many. IR is always using the same sense group.

 

Spiderman's Danger Sense is not the same sense group as one the Silver Surfer might have.

 

One is a animal type sense, one would be attunement to the power cosmic.

[TheEmerged]

Hmm, let me try explaining what I said again.

 

It doesn't matter so much HOW the Widget is being sensed, but that Widget is being sensed. If you can disguise the Widget, does the effect behind the Widget Sense matter?

 

Replace Widget with Danger and...

[mattingly]

Invisibility, on the other hand, by it's very nature is invisible.

 

So, then, for a "mental invisibility" (see other thread), if the invisibility were visible to the mental sense group, would that qualify for a -1/4 Visible limitation?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by mattingly

So, then, for a "mental invisibility" (see other thread), if the invisibility were visible to the mental sense group, would that qualify for a -1/4 Visible limitation?

No, because you choose the Sense Groups you wish to be invisible to. If you buy Invisibility to Sight Group, you are still detectable by Hearing, Mental, Smell, etc. Invisibility would not be invisible to the Mental Group unless it was bought for the Mental Group; and if you buy it for that group you would not take an Advantage to be both invisible and visible to the group.

 

Now I could see someone taking Invisible to the Mental Group, and then maybe giving it a -1/4 Limitation for Not Invisible To Mind Scan or something like that, but that would be the exception.

[Seenar]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

Hmm, let me try explaining what I said again.

 

It doesn't matter so much HOW the Widget is being sensed, but that Widget is being sensed. If you can disguise the Widget, does the effect behind the Widget Sense matter?

 

Replace Widget with Danger and...

 

Yes because of what sense group the Widget Sense is using.

 

Look, you cannot make something in Hero totally undetectable. I can always come up with one more Unusual Sense Group that one has not purchaced in one's invisibility against.

 

If there are Widget Senses that use different sense groups, then you will have to buy your invisiblity against each of those groups.

 

A Danger Sense based on Mental intent could be blocked by invisibility to Mental Sense Group, but that would not stop a Danger Sense based on Precognition special effect.

 

See the difference?

[MarkusDark]

I have similiar troubles with Detects

 

Many of my players have such things as 'Detect Lifeforce' or 'Detect Aura' with analyze, discriminatory, etc. The use of these is multi-faceted. First, there are rarely powers that target Detects (Flash, Darkness,Invis, etc). Second, it is difficult to describe HOW this power is working - is it through sight or more of a mental awareness style? To help combat this, I require that ALL Detects need to be specifically categorized as to how it is being perceived by the person "Well I can see the aura." "Then anything that effects ALL sight will effect the detect". Granted, just because you are in the dark, you could still see an aura being projected but to avoid the difficult issues, it is the way that I go.

 

As for Danger Sense, it is almost a style of mental ability be it precog or instinct or something else. I feel that anyone that has invisibility to Danger Sense is a person who has trained themselves in attacking so much that they give off no sort of anticipation or special thought to the attack and thereby the detector doesn't sense it. Likewise, if it was a Darkness field (and I would love to know the rationale behind it), it would simply lower the overall 'vibes'of the area to neutrality.

 

Another way to make an attack less detectable by Danger Sense is to puchase minuses to the Per roll for the attack. Danger sense is perception based, afterall. A -10 Per to an attack could seriously hinder any danger sense. Also, check out the Digital Hero #5 article on Danger Sense http://www.herogames.com/digitalHero/Samples/dh05dangersense.htm to give you some more ideas. Often Danger Sense is played much more powerfully than it actually was intended.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Monolith

When activated, Darkness must be visible to 3 senses (unless bought with the IPE Advantage).

 

Personally, I'd disagree with this. Extrapolating from the description of IPE under Sense-Affecting Powers on FREd p85, I'd say that sense affecting powers are generally only perceivable by the senses they affect.

[Doug Limmer]

Re: I have similiar troubles with Detects

 

Originally posted by MarkusDark

I feel that anyone that has invisibility to Danger Sense is a person who has trained themselves in attacking so much that they give off no sort of anticipation or special thought to the attack and thereby the detector doesn't sense it.

But if someone literally sees 3 seconds into the future, wouldn't that one still see the attack coming? Regardless of how 'non-agressive' you are? (Now, if the sneaky character also had Invisibility to Precognition, or the right kind of IPE on his attack, that'd be different.)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by archermoo

Personally, I'd disagree with this. Extrapolating from the description of IPE under Sense-Affecting Powers on FREd p85, I'd say that sense affecting powers are generally only perceivable by the senses they affect.

All END using powers must be visible to three senses. The only exception to this is Invisibility. To make a power invisible to sense groups you must buy it with the IPE Advantage.

 

So if you make a normal Darkness field, it is visible to sight, possibly touch, and possibly smell. If you built a Darkness field to sight, and then gave it IPE (sight): +1/2, the person would not see the Darkness when they entered the field, but could still touch and smell the Darkness (they could feel and smell that they were in something, but could not see it). If IPE was +3/4, the character might only smell the Darkness. If the IPE was +1, the character could not detect it at all.

[Toadmaster]

I think what you are missing is that the "danger" does not even need to know they are a danger, let alone "mask" their intent. For example a drunk driver is barrelling along towards spiderguy TM, the drunk has no ill will towards our hero but his arachnoidsense TM still kicks in warning him of the impending danger. There are exception I could see, such as out of sync with the current universe but that would be a big GM call on allowing. I suppose invisibility or darkness vs DS would be possible but should have a limitation only works against X method but this would apply more towards DS that has a lim of some kind that matches up with the invisibility / darkness sfx. Since DS isn't typically taken with these types of lims it would be fairly rare for these powers to work.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Monolith

All END using powers must be visible to three senses. The only exception to this is Invisibility. To make a power invisible to sense groups you must buy it with the IPE Advantage.

 

So if you make a normal Darkness field, it is visible to sight, possibly touch, and possibly smell. If you built a Darkness field to sight, and then gave it IPE (sight): +1/2, the person would not see the Darkness when they entered the field, but could still touch and smell the Darkness (they could feel and smell that they were in something, but could not see it). If IPE was +3/4, the character might only smell the Darkness. If the IPE was +1, the character could not detect it at all.

 

If that's the way you want to run it, more power to 'ya. I think that requiring a Darkness to sight field to be perceivable to an extra 2 senses is silly, and so don't do it. Just like with another sense affecting power, Images. Only the senses the character paid for are affected. They don't get an extra two for free, nor is their sight only image ruined by having a sound and smell component that isn't condusive to the sight portion added.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by archermoo

If that's the way you want to run it, more power to 'ya.

That is the rules, so I do it that way.

 

Only the senses the character paid for are affected. They don't get an extra two for free, nor is their sight only image ruined by having a sound and smell component that isn't condusive to the sight portion added.

I did not say that darkness stops the use of the other two senses. When you enter a Sight Darkness Field, you can still feel and smell things (because the power was not bought to affect stop those senses), but you also feel and smell the darkness. That is a big difference.

 

And as a matter of fact, if you have images that do not affect touch, the minute someone tried to touch them, he would "feel" that they are not real. That is the difference. Images with Sight, Touch, and Smell seem real. Images with only Sight do not feel or smell real, though they have a feel and a smell.

[MarkusDark]

Re: Re: I have similiar troubles with Detects

 

Originally posted by Doug Limmer

But if someone literally sees 3 seconds into the future, wouldn't that one still see the attack coming? Regardless of how 'non-agressive' you are? (Now, if the sneaky character also had Invisibility to Precognition, or the right kind of IPE on his attack, that'd be different.)

 

I can understand that, but going along those lines, during that time he is 'seeing 3 seconds into the future' is he now completely blind in the here and now? To me, to use such a precongitive 'sight' one would have to continuously look at the timeline in front of him and not just get the half phase 'snapshot' and "HOPEFULLY" hit the exact 3 second gap of when he gets nailed. Sure, he can 'precog' that in three seconds he'll be hit but in some cases, such as with a ranged attack, I wouldn't then allow the person to buy discriminatory and such like as the chances of him noticing the exact hit, where it came from and from whom.

 

Also, if the darkness affected sight, wouldn't it then affect his precog ability as he couldn't see anymore? That is if the darkness remained in effect for those three seconds?

 

Not really trying to split hairs here, just showing how one SFX can have both plus and minuses built into it

[Seenar]

Re: Re: I have similiar troubles with Detects

 

Originally posted by Doug Limmer

But if someone literally sees 3 seconds into the future, wouldn't that one still see the attack coming? Regardless of how 'non-agressive' you are? (Now, if the sneaky character also had Invisibility to Precognition, or the right kind of IPE on his attack, that'd be different.)

 

Exactly my point. Invisibilty to Temporal Senses would cover you there.

 

Speical Effect of the DS realyl determines its Sense group.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Monolith

That is the rules, so I do it that way.

 

That is your interp of the rules, so you do it that way. It isn't my interp of the rules, so I don't.

 

Originally posted by Monolith

I did not say that darkness stops the use of the other two senses. When you enter a Sight Darkness Field, you can still feel and smell things (because the power was not bought to affect stop those senses), but you also feel and smell the darkness. That is a big difference.

 

I didn't claim that you did say it would stop the other two senses. I just don't agree that it is reasonable to assume that a sense affecting power affects senses other than the one(s) that it was bought to affect. Whether that affect is the purchased one or simply being perceivable.

 

Originally posted by Monolith

And as a matter of fact, if you have images that do not affect touch, the minute someone tried to touch them, he would "feel" that they are not real. That is the difference. Images with Sight, Touch, and Smell seem real. Images with only Sight do not feel or smell real, though they have a feel and a smell.

 

I realize that if you have a single sense Illusion, as soon as a sense that the illusion should have but doesn't is used on it, it is becomes obvious that it is an illusion. Not quite sure why you brought that up, seems to be a total non-sequitor. Never claimed that wasn't the case. But there is a difference between it being obvious it is an illusion because it doens't tactily exist when it should, and it being obvious because you can feel it and it feels wrong. If you want to say that all illusions have at least 3 senses, but the ones you didn't buy don't make sense to the illusion, again more power to you. I prefer to keep it simple and say that illusions exist to those senses that were purchased, and don't exist to other senses.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by archermoo

That is your interp of the rules, so you do it that way. It isn't my interp of the rules, so I don't.

Page 71, under Sensing Powers And Special Effects, states the rule. As the GM you are allowed to change the rule, but then you are not playing buy the basic rules.

 

So, under the rules, an END-using power is visible to three senses. The fact that a power might obscure one or more sense groups has nothing to do with the fact that it can still be seen. A smoke grenade stops you from seeing, but while in it you can see the smoke, you can smell the smoke, and you can probably feel the smoke touching your skin. The fact that the smoke does not obscure the other two senses has nothing to do with the fact that you can sense it.

 

Now for Images, the fact that you can see a hologram villain means that the power has been bought to affect the Sight Group. But if you went up to touch it, it might feel like warm light, and there might be an ozone smell in the air if you got really close to the hologram. All of those things have nothing do with the fact that you can see a perfect hologram standing in front of you.

 

The other two senses only come into affect when you are sensing with them. You do not feel things until you actually come in contact with them. From a distance you cannot feel that a Darkness cloud you are not in has texture. You must enter it, then you can feel it. The same goes for any other sense. Visible to three senses only means that you must uses those three senses. If you are not touching it, you do not know that it has feeling. You cannot sense that it has feeling just because you see it used. You must feel it being used.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Monolith

Page 71, under Sensing Powers And Special Effects, states the rule. As the GM you are allowed to change the rule, but then you are not playing buy the basic rules.

 

Indeed it does. Quite clearly uses the phrase "Almost all". Not "All except Invis.". Not "All". FREd also quite clearly states in innumerable places that Refs should do what makes sense to them. If it makes you feel better to say that when someone else interprets the rules differently than you they aren't playing the basic game, go for it. It doesn't make it true, but if it makes you feel better, fine.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by archermoo

Indeed it does. Quite clearly uses the phrase "Almost all". Not "All except Invis.". Not "All".

I didn't see where it used the phrase: "Almost all."

 

FREd also quite clearly states in innumerable places that Refs should do what makes sense to them. If it makes you feel better to say that when someone else interprets the rules differently than you they aren't playing the basic game, go for it. It doesn't make it true, but if it makes you feel better, fine.

GM's should do what makes sense to them, and if they feel a need to alter the basic rules they should. I have plenty of house rules. But I do not use my house rules as the answer when someone wants an "official" answer. I use the answer from FREd.

 

In an "official" capacity, all END using powers are visible to three senses. Each GM is free to change the rule however they see fit, and the game encourages that, but they should not state their changes as being a by-the-book way of doing it when it is not. That is the only difference we have here.