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Raw STR: Marvel


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Originally posted by Gary

14-15d6 with Find Weakness is silly for Cap. If one of the very toughest and most powerful peak humans needs 6 hits to knock out a 10-12 foot shark, then they're not doing anywhere near that much damage. Certainly not enough to take on any of the tougher bricks in the Marvel Universe.

 

That's a one off example, though. And IRRC, Shang Chi in his own series is in more of a martial arts sub-genre. There's also a good chance that the writers have no idea of how tough a shark is. For that matter, neither do we. We do know that humans get knocked out from the brain sloshing around in their noggin when they're hit. I'd say that a shark, with its itty bitty brain isn't going to be knocked out in the same way. It's possible that he actually beat it to death (do you remember if the shark recovered from the beating?), and with the shark's PD vs. a normal attack, reduced by the water resistance, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to require six shots.

 

Then again, comics aren't a bastion of internal consistancy.

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Originally posted by freakboy6117

not really a fair comparision shang chi is amartial artist unless he has super underwater shark fighting martial arts he's going to have problems fighting in that environment.

 

all martial artist seem to have problems fighting non human opponants batman has had problems with big cats and dogs.

 

cap is(as repetedly stated in marvel comics) a tactical genius his main ability beyond his awesome physical skill (like batman) is to exploit the weaknesses and tactical faults of his opponants (and teammates for that matter) and yet we doubt he has find weakness? his high damage is has the SFX of him hitting with that shield in just the right point to do the maximum damage to his target of course he only uses it when facing really big opposition the rest of the time its just amazing skill.

 

It sounds like you're trying to double-dip on his skill. You want to give him lots of dice because he always hits the weak spot, and then you want to give him Find Weakness because he can hit the weak spot.

 

Which is it? Lots of dice, or Find Weakness?

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I thought I got out of this...

 

Originally posted by Agent X

Most people agree that he's got a 25 or 30 strength because of comic book examples that ring true.

 

Agreed. I'd call it a 30.

 

Cap's got martial arts and he darn well ought to have some damage classes.

 

Agreed, though I probably wouldn't give him as many damage classes as some would; I think his high stats account for enough of his martial arts abilities. I'd give him maybe 2 or 3 DCs, 4 at the very most.

 

Absolutely, the shield should give him some extra dice, at least equal to a club.

 

I think I'm in the minority, but I disagree here. I'd just call his Offensive Strike "Uppercut/Right Cross/Shield Bash" and leave it as SFX.

 

Yep he's got combat skill levels, he's supposed to be the ultimate human combatant in Marvel.

 

Agreed.

 

Cap's demonstrated the ability to put stun on people he shouldn't be able to based on sheer strength alone so Find Weakness makes sense.

 

I tend to agree, but I could live with a write-up that didn't have it.

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Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

That's a one off example, though. And IRRC, Shang Chi in his own series is in more of a martial arts sub-genre. There's also a good chance that the writers have no idea of how tough a shark is. For that matter, neither do we. We do know that humans get knocked out from the brain sloshing around in their noggin when they're hit. I'd say that a shark, with its itty bitty brain isn't going to be knocked out in the same way. It's possible that he actually beat it to death (do you remember if the shark recovered from the beating?), and with the shark's PD vs. a normal attack, reduced by the water resistance, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to require six shots.

 

Then again, comics aren't a bastion of internal consistancy.

 

I have the issue right in front of me. Issue #21. He punches the shark 6 times in 6 separate panels. And afterwards in the very next panel after the 6th blow, his exact thoughts were, "The creature is stunned. He will not pursue me."

 

Shang Chi obviously didn't think he killed the shark. A 8 meter Great White shark has 10 PD, 25 Con, and 51 stun according to the Bestiary. A 3-4 meter shark should be substantially weaker. This doesn't argue well for the ability of peak humans to do substantial amounts of damage.

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Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

That's a one off example, though. And IRRC, Shang Chi in his own series is in more of a martial arts sub-genre. There's also a good chance that the writers have no idea of how tough a shark is. For that matter, neither do we. We do know that humans get knocked out from the brain sloshing around in their noggin when they're hit. I'd say that a shark, with its itty bitty brain isn't going to be knocked out in the same way. It's possible that he actually beat it to death (do you remember if the shark recovered from the beating?), and with the shark's PD vs. a normal attack, reduced by the water resistance, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to require six shots.

 

Then again, comics aren't a bastion of internal consistancy.

Shang Chi usually didn't interact with the bigger Marvel-verse. I'll try to do some research on what happened when he did. I remember his appearance in MTU and M2in1 and I should have them in a box somewhere.
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Originally posted by Kristopher

It sounds like you're trying to double-dip on his skill. You want to give him lots of dice because he always hits the weak spot, and then you want to give him Find Weakness because he can hit the weak spot.

 

Which is it? Lots of dice, or Find Weakness?

A Martial Arts maneuver allows a trained martial artist to hit someone where it hurts but that doesn't mean Find Weakness is double-dipping. Cap's Martial Arts represents his training and understanding of where to hit most bipeds, etc. to make them hurt. He uses it basically all the time. The Find Weakness represents his ability to stop, study an opponent, and start hitting them in their specific weak spot.

 

He may know that hitting Joe in the x or y location is going to work really well but, he can also study Joe to realize that Joe opens himself up for a good shot to z location for more damage by studying him and making a Find Weakness roll.

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Not really double dipping having the ability to know where to hit to do the maximum damage to your opponent is find weakness but having the strength and accuracy to hit that point hard enough to do damage is another matter.

 

A good example would be an old but skilled martial artist whilst the power of there body is no longer there superior skill and knowledge allow them to do a lot of damage on the other hand a strong fighter could do the same damage just by hitting harder but they would lack the finesse.

 

Its the same as our current comparison cap and she hulk she hulk hits hard but with no finesse cap hits less hard but with finesse giving him a slight edge. Cap can beat She Hulk because his training allows him to use her strength against her aikido style or by luring her into an envoiironment where her stregth will be her down fall.

 

It also takes cap longer to dish out the big damage she hulk can throw out punch after punch but cap has to assess his target ducking and weaving to avoid being hit before he moves into position to attack his targets weakness and delivering his powerful coup d grace

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I could see giving Cap a 25 STR (he can do reliably what the best athletes in the world only do by pushing themselves). The biggest martial arts maneuvers in HERO have +4d6. We'll toss in two Damage Classes, since that's a nice round number for adding to the NND and Killing maneuvers, and seems pretty reasonable.

 

So far, we're at 11d6 with an Offensive Strike

 

How many points of damage extra for a shield that's supposed to _absorb_ impact? Well, we'll ignore that little contradiction and give his blunt object +2d6.

 

13d6 for an Offensive Strike with the Shield, 17d6 if he pushes.

11d6 for a Martial, Fast, or Counter Strike, 15d6 if he pushes.

 

Now, that might not seem like much, but then you add in a Find Weakness so reliable that he might as well have Armor Piercing, and the really high CVs from his CSLs and manuevers, and his 6 SPD, and this seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

Of course, I don't have 130+ STR bricks and 8+ SPD martial artists for him to compete with, either. In the campaigns I've been in, a guy who floats 12+ CVs and has 6 SPD and does 11d6+ is a major badass.

 

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Guest Champsguy

Fiacho from Eurostar dishes out 13D6 Offensive Strikes, and has a 12- Find Weakness. I don't think it's unreasonable for Captain America to have similar abilities.

 

My Cap would have:

30 Str (that's 5 more than Fiacho)

3 DCs (1 less than Fiacho--not because he's not as good at martial arts, but because at this point Cap is getting diminishing returns)

4D6 Offensive Strike

2D6 Hand Attack "Shield" (if you or I picked up that shield, we'd get more damage--but Cap again suffers from diminishing returns--just like I'd only give Thor about 4D6 from the hammer)

 

That gives Cap a 15D6 Offensive Strike with the shield.

 

 

---

 

Now, Gary deserves a response. I'd overlooked his post a few pages back (err... several pages now).

 

Gary, I might have been a little quick when I said that Cap would beat She-Hulk straight-up. Personally, I'd give the Rhino more defense than I would She-Hulk. But I would make Jennifer stronger. Rhino is dangerous as hell--he's just not Abomination class (of course, neither is She-Hulk).

 

My Rhino writeup would be something like:

Str 75

3D6 HA for charges

Dex 18

Con 38

Speed 4

PD 40

+20 PD only when charging

50% Physical Damage Reduction (nonresistant---this is a maybe, I might not give it to him, depends on how generous I'm feeling at the time)

10 points Lack of Weakness

 

Whereas She-Hulk would have a higher Str (80 or so) and Speed (5), some light martial arts (Martial Block, Martial Strike, Martial Grab; no DCs) but wouldn't get the extra defenses that Rhino had.

 

Again, She-Hulk could do an 18D6 Martial Strike. I still like 4th Edition, so in that she could haymaker for 24D6. With her 40" or so of Superleap, she can do hellacious move-throughs. She'll still do more sheer damage than Cap, but he should still be able to stand on the same field as her.

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Guest Champsguy
Originally posted by Kristopher

I could see giving Cap a 25 STR (he can do reliably what the best athletes in the world only do by pushing themselves). The biggest martial arts maneuvers in HERO have +4d6. We'll toss in two Damage Classes, since that's a nice round number for adding to the NND and Killing maneuvers, and seems pretty reasonable.

 

So far, we're at 11d6 with an Offensive Strike

 

How many points of damage extra for a shield that's supposed to _absorb_ impact? Well, we'll ignore that little contradiction and give his blunt object +2d6.

 

13d6 for an Offensive Strike with the Shield, 17d6 if he pushes.

11d6 for a Martial, Fast, or Counter Strike, 15d6 if he pushes.

 

I should also note that I'd make the dice from the shield 0 End, and wouldn't let him push that. So a Cap who was throwing 15D6 Offensive Strikes with the shield would get 17D6 when he pushed, not 19D6.

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Originally posted by Kristopher

I could see giving Cap a 25 STR (he can do reliably what the best athletes in the world only do by pushing themselves).

I would point out that the rules state that NPCs, like athletes, unless they are very important NPCs, are not allowed to Push (page 287). So when you see a powerlifter in the game pressing or lifting some amount of weight it is because he has the STR to do it, not because he's pushing. That makes a big difference in design philosophy because everyone just assumes all the NPCs are pushing all the time.

 

I also just can't see giving Cap the same STR as Seeker. Cap is the best a human can be, Seeker is a victim. :)

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Originally posted by Monolith

I would point out that the rules state that NPCs, like athletes, unless they are very important NPCs, are not allowed to Push (page 287). So when you see a powerlifter in the game pressing or lifting some amount of weight it is because he has the STR to do it, not because he's pushing. That makes a big difference in design philosophy because everyone just assumes all the NPCs are pushing all the time.

 

I also just can't see giving Cap the same STR as Seeker. Cap is the best a human can be, Seeker is a victim. :)

 

The rules seem to imply that lifting your maximum capacity is pushing. Barely getting the weight off the ground and staggering a step or two implies a push of some sort.

 

Since Cap can lift 800 pounds above his head (and this seems to be a reliable benchmark), I'd say that he can lift about double that barely off the ground and stagger a step or two. Hence, a 25 str.

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Originally posted by Monolith

I would point out that the rules state that NPCs, like athletes, unless they are very important NPCs, are not allowed to Push (page 287). So when you see a powerlifter in the game pressing or lifting some amount of weight it is because he has the STR to do it, not because he's pushing. That makes a big difference in design philosophy because everyone just assumes all the NPCs are pushing all the time.

 

I also just can't see giving Cap the same STR as Seeker. Cap is the best a human can be, Seeker is a victim. :)

That makes the Peak Human thing a little easier to swallow for some?
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Originally posted by Monolith

I would point out that the rules state that NPCs, like athletes, unless they are very important NPCs, are not allowed to Push (page 287). So when you see a powerlifter in the game pressing or lifting some amount of weight it is because he has the STR to do it, not because he's pushing. That makes a big difference in design philosophy because everyone just assumes all the NPCs are pushing all the time.

 

I also just can't see giving Cap the same STR as Seeker. Cap is the best a human can be, Seeker is a victim. :)

 

Hrm. Never realized NPCs couldn't push. Not very fond of "different rules for different character roles" anyway. But that's another thread.

 

I'd say that there are plenty of real-life examples of people pushing for a 2, maybe 3 points of extra STR that they don't normally have, and that would include ahtletes.

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Originally posted by Champsguy

I should also note that I'd make the dice from the shield 0 End, and wouldn't let him push that. So a Cap who was throwing 15D6 Offensive Strikes with the shield would get 17D6 when he pushed, not 19D6.

 

Again, 17d6 pushes would imply that Cap can do body to a vault door, and break it down within a couple of turns. And this is before factoring in any Find Weakness. Nothing in comics suggests that this is even a remote possibility.

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Here is another of the very rare Cap vs tough brick confrontation. This is FF Annual #3. Cap surprises Executioner by ramming into him with Cobra on his back. So in game terms, a Cap Offensive Strike can inflict a little stun (and I mean little) on Executioner. No knockback or knockdown, and Executioner merely looks annoyed. Then Cap spends the rest of the confrontation martial dodging to keep from getting splattered by Skurge, without making any attempt at all to strike back. And then the rest of the heroes arrive and they don't get to finish their fight.

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What does the phrase peak human actually mean? Well, in comics, it pretty much means anything!!!

 

Captain America, Batman, Daredevil, etc. are all supposed to have amazing, yet still within human capabilities, abilities and skills.

 

Rather than endlessly debating what exactly that is... why not look to the Champions Universe. Characters like the Hoarbinger of Justice or Andres Panthanatos have ungodly stats - SPD and Dex scores which would make most Champions speedsters balk. Yet they are merely human. Why is this? Well, it's because these statistics are not outwardly ridiculous. Humans can move fast, they can be acrobatic - we can believe these statistics even though they are well outside the accepted 'peak human' range of the game itself. We couldn't accept Str 60 as 'peak human' because the game rules dictate that you could then lift 100 tons, similarly we couldn't accept PD 20 as you would suffer no physical injury from a 40m+ fall. These things are more easily 'measured' in relation to the rest of the world, and so impinge more on our suspension of disbelief as to what a 'peak human' can do.

 

However, I have no problem with the strongest ever human (25 Str, 30 Str, 35 Str if you like in your game) being able to lift several tons... if only for a few moments. I know it isn't actually possible, but I've never met the strongest ever human - has he even existed? Does even the biggest weightlifter hit actual human maximum strength? If so then why do people continue to beat records and set new ones? If human maximum was so easily achievable then surely records for sprinting, weightlifting, long-jumping, etc. would long ago have been set in stone? Is it too difficult to believe that these totally exceptional characters have reached levels of conditioning and training unseen even in professional sports?

 

I recall an issue of Batman (think it was one of the Armageddon 2001 titles from ages back, or maybe one of the regular comics about that time) where an olympic athlete was trying to keep up with Batman on one of his nightly patrols... afterwards Batman was still going strong, but the olympic gymnast was exhausted from just swinging about the city all night. Point in case Batman was better conditioned and better at performing. Similarly, I'm sure in the DCU no olympic gold medallist/ultimate fighting champ/heavyweight boxer would stand up to Batman, Lady Shiva or the like in a fight. In the Marvel Universe the same would be true of Captain America. I'm mainly looking at Batman examples here as I'm far more familiar with his comics and how they relate to 'peak human' abilities.

 

So, onto Cap. Comics confirm that he can, and has, hurt the Hulk, Rhino and many other Bricks. Not to any great degree, but he certainly has done it. In an extended battle his chances of successfully defeating the Hulk are virtually zero. To my knowledge he never has and I can't imagine he ever will, he just cannot do enough damage over a long period of time. The same is true for Abomination, but I'd say he could defeat She-Hulk, though it'd be a hard fight. Most other bricks below Hulk levels Cap could certainly defeat, and has done so on many occasions. Peak human strength, will to win, martial arts training and combat skills see him through.

 

My write-up of Cap would have the following:

 

Strength 30, ultimate human maximum in my opinion.

Martial Arts with +2 DC (he's more 'skill' than raw damage)

+4-6 CSL's spread between overall and h-t-h.

+2d6 for his shield

Find Weakness 14- with Shield

 

Bearing in mind the Hulk probably has lack of weakness 8+ that's one of the main reasons Cap struggles against him. She-Hulk maybe only has a couple of points of it, if any, thus making her a far more viable opponent for Cap!

 

Just my thoughts!

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Originally posted by Prototype

Most other bricks below Hulk levels Cap could certainly defeat, and has done so on many occasions.

 

I can't argue with the rest of your post because it's just opinion, but this I can argue with. The toughest brick that anyone can point to Cap actually beating is Mr. Hyde. And he's not that tough in the pecking order of Marvel bricks.

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Originally posted by Gary

Since Cap can lift 800 pounds above his head (and this seems to be a reliable benchmark), I'd say that he can lift about double that barely off the ground and stagger a step or two. Hence, a 25 str.

 

If he can lift 800lbs. over his head, he should be able to deadlift roughly twice that; the world record for a deadlift is approximately twice the world record for a lift over the head.

 

However, a deadlift is lifting something off the ground to a standing position, with arms down. It's quite a bit more work than just barely lifting something off the ground

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Originally posted by Andrew Cermak

If he can lift 800lbs. over his head, he should be able to deadlift roughly twice that; the world record for a deadlift is approximately twice the world record for a lift over the head.

 

However, a deadlift is lifting something off the ground to a standing position, with arms down. It's quite a bit more work than just barely lifting something off the ground

 

Can the people who deadlift 1000+ pounds take 2 steps with that weight?

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I thought I got out of this...

 

Originally posted by Agent X

Here's a series of questions for you:

What strength has Captain America demonstrated in the comics consistently?

What is a master martial artist of Cap's caliber, one of the best up there with Shang Chi, supposed to get? Just maneuvers? some damage classes?

Should Cap's shield add any damage to his attacks?

Should Cap have any combat skill levels?

Should Cap have find weakness?

 

He's not anywhere near the main Marvel bricks in strength. [/b]

 

If I made him, I'd agree with a 25 Str - I woulnd't classify him as human, though - again a minor point.

 

For martial arts, he'd probably have some skills, maybe some damage classes. I'd limit them somewhat to prevent their use with the shield, since the shield would get a MP (HA, EB/Stun only for throwing, maybe a KA vs objects only to represent his breaking things ability. Also indirect option, probably reqiring a Dex roll for bouncing).

 

Cap would have combat levels, but no find weakness. I agree with others that he doesn't seem to have that. Having a power that could eliminate half of the hulks defenses isn't in the scale of a low-powered superhuman. To my mind he's never shown anything like Karnak or Karate Kid. I think he might get some extra OCV and maybe damage for some of his surprise attacks, but thats debateable. Going back to the shield, I might agree to a limited AP attack, maybe. I'd have to see how effective he might be.

 

I still don't think he ever did stun to the hulk. The way I see it, anyone hit will react to it. If he got in a few solid blows and the hulk grunted, that can still be a good hit that does no damage. I don't think "Ugh" implies damage. Like I said, if cap routinely ripped apart tanks or armored foes, then maybe. But I haven't seen it in cases other than writer fiat. I don't really buy the wrecking crew one either, by the way, although their power levels have fluctuated immensely throughout time. The current writers of the avengers have got to prove themselves to me, and so far, they're not doing so well, IMO. Look at some martial arts movies - when Professor Toru Tanaka (I believe that's the name) gets hit by Chuck Norris and his head moves, I think that's effect and not stun. His head moves but he takes no damage. I don't see that an attack that does no stun bouncing off like a bullet off superman.

 

I'd probably agree to the 10-12 die range, except that with players starting out at 350 and 14d6 average, he'd have to be moved up that high just to stay current. Of course, if I were running an all-marvel campaign, 10-12 might be considered a high-score. I already said that I don't agree with the push to upgrade characters to match Grond. "Can Thor take Grond" is not a question I have. I'd give the marvel bricks lifting strength like they have been given in the handbook, and give them extra damage dice if they need that. To me this conversion needs a lot of hand-waving and guesses, since there are too many differences between the comics and the game to make a good one-to-one conversion. Just the way I'd do it, and it looks like I'm in the minority on that.

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Originally posted by Andrew Cermak

Hell if I know. It's not a requirement of the lift; in fact, if you take any steps back or forward during a deadlift in competition you're disqualified.

 

Yeah - the requirement is to lift it up with no extraneous movement (a step might give you some momentum to the lift, perhaps). Given the way they seem to strain, I doubt anyone could walk with that (also given the damage that they also do to themselves, I dont think they'd want to). A better example is probably the strongest man in the world competitions.

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Originally posted by Prototype

However, I have no problem with the strongest ever human (25 Str, 30 Str, 35 Str if you like in your game) being able to lift several tons... if only for a few moments. I know it isn't actually possible, but I've never met the strongest ever human - has he even existed? Does even the biggest weightlifter hit actual human maximum strength? If so then why do people continue to beat records and set new ones? If human maximum was so easily achievable then surely records for sprinting, weightlifting, long-jumping, etc. would long ago have been set in stone? Is it too difficult to believe that these totally exceptional characters have reached levels of conditioning and training unseen even in professional sports?

 

The records are beaten by razor-thin margins. The weightlifting records I found were all around a decade old. This does not speak favorably towards the notion that there are some unreached levels of human potential. Instead, it indicates that we're near the boundary.

 

I find it difficult to believe because in real life, it IS the athletes at the peak levels of human physical performance.

 

I recall an issue of Batman (think it was one of the Armageddon 2001 titles from ages back, or maybe one of the regular comics about that time) where an olympic athlete was trying to keep up with Batman on one of his nightly patrols... afterwards Batman was still going strong, but the olympic gymnast was exhausted from just swinging about the city all night. Point in case Batman was better conditioned and better at performing.

 

That's not a matter of performance, it's a matter of endurance. I doubt most gymnasts have to put on 8-hour routines.

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Originally posted by Kristopher

Hrm. Never realized NPCs couldn't push. Not very fond of "different rules for different character roles" anyway. But that's another thread.

 

I'd say that there are plenty of real-life examples of people pushing for a 2, maybe 3 points of extra STR that they don't normally have, and that would include ahtletes.

I think you are confusing straining your muscles to max lift with "dramatic" pushing.
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