Jump to content

We're Gonna Need Guns


Steve Long

Recommended Posts

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I don't know how 'futuristic' you want to get, or whether you already know about this, but this article on electric bullets http://www.discover.com/issues/jun-04/rd/electric-bullets-save-lives/ may be of interest. It's unclear from this short article whether this would be a NND instead of a RKA, an NND on top of an RKA, or just a good special effect for a high STUN multiplier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 116
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

A short list of antique fireames would be nice. I say this for several reasons:

 

1) many detective novels have unusual murder weapons in them

2) supplements that would otherwise include them are unlikely to be published

3) they might make a good costumed hero/villian schtick

 

Such a list could include - a handful of muskets, tenessee long rifle, springfield rifle, gattling gun, blunderbuss, .41 single action revolver, etc. More recent "antique guns" could include the WWI style machine guns, the M-1 Garand, a WWII German sniper rifle, and some of the big game guns from the earlier part of this century.

 

----

 

Don't forget to include the Ithica .12 guage - its the most common police shotgun out there. It does vary (lots of departments use lots of brands), but the Ithica is a touch iconic.

 

---

 

I too would like to see some non-lethal options - modern tasers (the ones that have a profile like a handgun), tear gas grenades, flashbang grenages, stun guns, and the like.

 

---

 

Golden Sabre rounds are in common use with the police in the NW. It would be cool to see a write up on them. The rationale is - since the bullet stops inside the target it reduces liability (potential injury to bystanders). Of course, the fact that the round has a high effectiveness (read "lethality") quotient doesn't factor into the decision at all (sorry, feeling snarky).

 

---

 

Shotgun slugs are a must (as well as a notation reminding your dear readers that shotguns have to be ramped for slugs - you can't just stick them in and start shooting).

 

---

 

A list of tactical rifles would be an excellent choice as well - and in the case of the really rare ones, production numbers would be useful (esp. since that can be a good lead in from a forensics perspective). Both the Walther 2000 (only a few hundred made) and the M40 (hand crafted by Marine Corps armorers) come to mind.

 

---

 

Oh! Subsonic rounds. You must include sub-sonic rounds.

 

---

 

Another thing to include in your silencer section is a discussion of realistic silencers and an explanation of what is being silenced (muzzle blast, not the crack of the bullet as it breaks the sound barrier). You can eliminate the crack of the bullet passing the sound barrier with subsonic rounds, but the muzzle blast is still pretty darn loud - even when "silenced."

 

Movie silencers are a major pet peeve of mine. Most "silenced" rifles still exceed 115 decibles, and with the exception of low caliber handguns, "silenced" handguns still remain high (around 80-90 decibles, which is roughly equivelent to the sound a riveter makes).

 

I watched the Bellevue SWAT team try out their silencers when I was an auxillury officer. Their MP-5's were still distinctive sounding and pretty loud. The main reason they used them wasn't to hide the noise, but to ensure they'd still be able to talk to one another once the shooting started (the human threshold for pain is around 140 decibles).

 

---

 

More later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

There is a version of the MP-5 that has a non-detachable silencer. With sub-sonic ammo the sound of the action cycling is the loudest sound it makes. That's still fairly substantial, easily heard 50 feet away. The weapon has an action lock that prevents the action from cycling, turning into a very quiet single shot. The action is then cycled by hand. Used only when maximum stealth is needed.

Some handguns with similar capability have been made. In Vietnam, a 9mm Smith and Wesson Mod. 39 was modified to use subsonic ammo, fitted with a silencer and and action lock, and dubbed the Hush Puppy because one use was to take out sentry dogs from a great enough distance to keep them from alerting, with a low enough sound signature to prevent detection. The SOCOM .45 is supposed to have a similar function, quietly removing guards, dogs and such during a Special-Ops raid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

The DeLisle silenced carbine from WWII would be a good item. Modified SMLE to fire .45 acp with a suppressor. Very popular with WWII commandos.

 

There was a man (I could look up his name) who served in the iirc Rangers in WWII. He and his unit were in danger of premature exposure from a German stepping out of the bunker they were about to assault from behind. He THREW A KNIFE and hit and killed the man at70 Yards!

 

Because even for a former travelling carny this was almost impossible, the Delisle was quite popular. :)

 

I'd like to see some older weapons. For example, the kind of gear that was floating around between, say 1946-1966. That would allow for some classic Cold War espionage games, (and provide some support for Silver Age Champions!). It would also help fill in a gap between Pulp Hero & Golden Age Champions, on the one hand, and the modern period on the other.

 

I'm not talking about much - say a few rifles, a few SMGs, and maybe a few other weapons. You might throw in a few vehicles - how fast do fifties era vehicles go, compared to present ones? - plus, perhaps, a few other odds and ends (radios?). Much of this stuff could be used in present day games too.

 

Incidentally, this is not unreasonable, if you have a look at the history of the Hero System. Espionage was written in the early 1980's, and it's technology was essentially that of the 1970's. Pushing back a bit further shouldn't be too difficult.

 

On guns in general: generally speaking, I only ever use a few common designs. Pages and pages of weapons is usually dead space as far as I am concerned. But it's of interest to some people, so I can deal with it. And if my own silly prejudices are covered, I'm happy. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I just read the little article. It would in a highly realistic writeup be a killing attack, maybe not as high as a normal pistol, with probably an nnd linked.

Any bullet that can be effective at 300 feet is going to imo have a killing attack linked unless it is rubber or something.

 

 

The NND might be versus ff or electrically insulated armor that the bullet does not penetrate.

 

The simplest writeup would be several extra stun multiples.

 

 

I have been wondering when something like this would be built, IMO a shotgun slug or possible a Beanbag or rubber baton bullet might be a better choice. Should be able to get more voltage or duration for greater effect.

 

 

Electric bullets -- excellent! This is just the sort of stuff I was hoping to get out of this thread. Lots of other suggestions have been worth following up on' date=' too. Keep up the good work, folx![/quote']
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

A couple of oldies I like are the .577 black powder revolver I posted a couple months ago. The Mauser c-96 broomhandle is interesting, but I have heard it isn't as nice to shoot. There was a full auto version with a snail magazine.

 

On shotgun slugs, do do you mean the barrel has to be a certain CHOKE? Most can even be fired through a full choke, though accuracy may not be as good.

 

Then there is the special "vang comp" for buckshot for tactical guns, REALLY tight groups.

 

A couple options for individual styles of bullets would be good. Most of the modern hollowpoints are fairly similar in performance, though there are arguments between those who want massive early disruption and those who SWEAR the bullet needs to penetrate a Minimum of 12" In game terms, the underpenetration/etc could just be a poor roll.

 

 

 

 

A short list of antique fireames would be nice. I say this for several reasons:

 

1) many detective novels have unusual murder weapons in them

2) supplements that would otherwise include them are unlikely to be published

3) they might make a good costumed hero/villian schtick

 

Such a list could include - a handful of muskets, tenessee long rifle, springfield rifle, gattling gun, blunderbuss, .41 single action revolver, etc. More recent "antique guns" could include the WWI style machine guns, the M-1 Garand, a WWII German sniper rifle, and some of the big game guns from the earlier part of this century.

 

----

 

Don't forget to include the Ithica .12 guage - its the most common police shotgun out there. It does vary (lots of departments use lots of brands), but the Ithica is a touch iconic.

 

---

 

I too would like to see some non-lethal options - modern tasers (the ones that have a profile like a handgun), tear gas grenades, flashbang grenages, stun guns, and the like.

 

---

 

Golden Sabre rounds are in common use with the police in the NW. It would be cool to see a write up on them. The rationale is - since the bullet stops inside the target it reduces liability (potential injury to bystanders). Of course, the fact that the round has a high effectiveness (read "lethality") quotient doesn't factor into the decision at all (sorry, feeling snarky).

 

---

 

Shotgun slugs are a must (as well as a notation reminding your dear readers that shotguns have to be ramped for slugs - you can't just stick them in and start shooting).

 

---

 

A list of tactical rifles would be an excellent choice as well - and in the case of the really rare ones, production numbers would be useful (esp. since that can be a good lead in from a forensics perspective). Both the Walther 2000 (only a few hundred made) and the M40 (hand crafted by Marine Corps armorers) come to mind.

 

---

 

Oh! Subsonic rounds. You must include sub-sonic rounds.

 

---

 

Another thing to include in your silencer section is a discussion of realistic silencers and an explanation of what is being silenced (muzzle blast, not the crack of the bullet as it breaks the sound barrier). You can eliminate the crack of the bullet passing the sound barrier with subsonic rounds, but the muzzle blast is still pretty darn loud - even when "silenced."

 

Movie silencers are a major pet peeve of mine. Most "silenced" rifles still exceed 115 decibles, and with the exception of low caliber handguns, "silenced" handguns still remain high (around 80-90 decibles, which is roughly equivelent to the sound a riveter makes).

 

I watched the Bellevue SWAT team try out their silencers when I was an auxillury officer. Their MP-5's were still distinctive sounding and pretty loud. The main reason they used them wasn't to hide the noise, but to ensure they'd still be able to talk to one another once the shooting started (the human threshold for pain is around 140 decibles).

 

---

 

More later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

On shotgun slugs, do do you mean the barrel has to be a certain CHOKE? Most can even be fired through a full choke, though accuracy may not be as good.

 

Not really. Its an issue of bore. Shotgun manufacturers don't actually produce barrels that are the same size (precision wise) by guage, whereas handguns tend to be precise due to the nature of the ammunition that has to be fired. As a result, slugs that are a precise fit for one shotgun of a particular guage may not be a precise fit for another shotgun (from a different manufacturer) of the same guage. As such, slugs have a tendency to damage the barrels over several firings (as few as three to four in some cases) and seriously reduce the ability to place groups. Damaged barrels lead to accidents on occassion, too. Some of the new saboted slugs are designed to expand to the barrel's size when fired, eliminating these problems, but traditionally you have to be very careful about selecting the correct slug for your shotgun if you don't want to damage your barrel (and to avoid potential accidents). My reference to "ramping" was essentially the fitting process - making sure you have the right barrel for the right slug.

 

Most dedicated hunters who use slugs have rifled barrels (to assist with bore issues) and use saboted slugs - giving them accurate groupings at as much as 100 yards, which is a lot for a shotgun. If you don't "ramp" you won't be accurate with your slugs beyond normal shot ranges.

 

Some of the saboted slugs are .73 caliber and expand on impact! Ouch! How much hero damage is that? If a .50 is 3d6... 3d6+1 with a +2 stun multiplier? Or just 4d6?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

About bullets

 

Actually this deals with the .22 calibur bullets, .22 LR, .22 Hornet, etc. I don't know how much of this is popular fiction and how much has a basis in fact. So here it goes...

 

  • I have heard sometimes "professionals" will use a .22 for a hit because the high-velocity, small, soft slug will be so distorted after it is fired into a target (body, wall, street, etc.) that ballistics may be useless in matching the round to a specific gun.
  • I have also heard that very small diameter rounds (like the .22 or .17) may actually penetrate soft body armor since the small bullet can actually slip between threads. Its not real likely but it can happen.

 

I know just enough about guns to be dangerous. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I have never read about any serious problems with shotgun slugs in different barrels, biggest I have read about is the worry about extra full chokes. I know my 870 shot several brands just fine, though i was not testing for accuracy.

 

as to damage,

The velocity is nowhere near as high as a .50. 2.5d6 would make sense though.

 

My favorite is the Federal load with the barnes x-slug. it expands to 1.5" in Diameter!

 

 

Not really. Its an issue of bore. Shotgun manufacturers don't actually produce barrels that are the same size (precision wise) by guage, whereas handguns tend to be precise due to the nature of the ammunition that has to be fired. As a result, slugs that are a precise fit for one shotgun of a particular guage may not be a precise fit for another shotgun (from a different manufacturer) of the same guage. As such, slugs have a tendency to damage the barrels over several firings (as few as three to four in some cases) and seriously reduce the ability to place groups. Damaged barrels lead to accidents on occassion, too. Some of the new saboted slugs are designed to expand to the barrel's size when fired, eliminating these problems, but traditionally you have to be very careful about selecting the correct slug for your shotgun if you don't want to damage your barrel (and to avoid potential accidents). My reference to "ramping" was essentially the fitting process - making sure you have the right barrel for the right slug.

 

Most dedicated hunters who use slugs have rifled barrels (to assist with bore issues) and use saboted slugs - giving them accurate groupings at as much as 100 yards, which is a lot for a shotgun. If you don't "ramp" you won't be accurate with your slugs beyond normal shot ranges.

 

Some of the saboted slugs are .73 caliber and expand on impact! Ouch! How much hero damage is that? If a .50 is 3d6... 3d6+1 with a +2 stun multiplier? Or just 4d6?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I've never heard of a problem with the bore for using slugs either, I have heard of people blowing out their choke though, it's my understanding is best to use an open choke with slugs, the tighter chokes may foul eventually being damaged by a slug trying to force past, perhaps this is what you are thinking of, many barrels do not have replacable chokes so it would require another "slug" barrel if you had an incompatable choke on your gun. There are barrels made to use slugs, often these are rifled and have standard rifle type sights increasing accuracy since standard barrels are not rifled, many slugs have grooves cut into them becasue it was thought the air going by would causing the round to spin making up for the lack of rifled barrel, apparently this doesn't happen but many still have the grooves. The saboted slugs are supposed to be more accurate but I believe this is because they are higher velocity and more aerodynamic, full bore slugs from a smoothbore shotgun are not much more advanced than an old blunderbus from the 1700's, the design of most saboted slugs makes them fly point first even from an unrifled barrel.

 

Edsel I think the thing with .22's is not that they can go through body armor (that sounds very unlikely since body armor is tested against this to get rated) but that low powered rounds like this often can get in but can't get back out bouncing off bones and such while more powerful rounds tend to go in and go out. Plus when a lucky shot gets under the armpit (or other unprotected area) of someone wearing body armor it is a better story than a .44 magnum ("he was wearing body armor but got killed with a .22, WoW really?" vs "he got killed by a .44 mag, no kidding, really? big surprise, its a .44, hello Mcfly!")

 

I can't speak for the use by "professional" killers beyond what I've seen on TV. :) But it wouldn't surprise me, .22 is readily available, many .22 are very small guns and isn't all that loud compared to most service weapons (9mm, .45 etc).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Non-gun weapons and add-ons.

Tasers and stun guns, which actually don't knock people out, they incapacitate them for as long as the juice is on and a few seconds after. (proabably best represented in hero as an entangle) Except when they don't affect the target or don't effect them as planned. Knew a cop who had to get zapped as part of his training every so often. Big guy. He said his instant reaction to getting hit by a stun gun (which is quite painful) was to grab the guy and throw him across the room. Even when he tried to not do that.

 

Pepper spray, which has about an 85% effectiveness according to several trainers I talked to. Last for many seconds to minutes. More than just a flash attack, it makes it very difficult to concentrate on anything other than the amazing pain in your eyes and skin, when it works.

 

Virtually all the actual firearms trainers I know consider lasers to be worthless, or even negatively effective. Particularly in a team operation. (Is that your red dot on the hostage or is yours the one on the hostage taker? They all look the same. Go ahead, pull the trigger and find out.) It's just as bad with IR lasers and NVGs. There also is a tendency for the shooter to try to aim with the laser vs the sights. This causes all sorts of bizzare problems. Very overrated in games. Can be really effective when used as a pointer by the team leader, but not as gun mounted toys.

 

High intensity tacical lights (surefire) are really effective in temporarily disabiling the guy being illuminated at night or in dark areas. The brightness of these, particularly the 9V and larger, is amazing. Much brighter then any maglight. All the bad guy sees is this wall of light that is too bright to look at. With a weapon mounted light it's even better. There are obvious issues with turning on a really bright light, but it only really applies if the bad guy is not in the light cone. If he is he is going to be shooting blind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Armor and Bullets:

 

Armor in hero doesn't work like it should against bullets. In general, bullets either are stopped by armor (with no effect on the target) or go right through with no beneficial effect from the armor. I've seen arguments that wearing the old Vietnam flack jackets INCREASED the severity of wounds from AKs. {There are exceptions, when a vest stops a round it isn't rated for, where the wearer will sustain significant blunt trauma. I've seen pictures of a vest that was not penetrated but has significant blood on the inside due to this effect. But it's rare.}

 

A typical description of being shot wearing a vest is being poked by a strong man’s finger. The hero body die rolls allow a very good chance of a typical pistol round to penetrate a vest and also a good chance of the person getting knocked unconscious by attacks that would possibly leave a bruise in reality and often wouldn’t be noticed in a fight.

 

Part of the issue is that Hero links “ability to incapacitate†to “ability to punch holes in armor†and they are actually quite different. For example, a 9mm pistol round is much harder to stop than a .45 pistol, despite it doing 1.5 pts less on average (and 4 pts less maximum) damage in Hero.

 

The logical way to fix these sorts of armor issues has severe compatibility issues. So, without having to redo everything an approach that might work that doesn't require gross changes to the system would be to assume that handgun bullets are always "reduced penetration". This takes care of much of the issue.

 

This still leaves the issue with AP bullets. I don’t have a great fix for this without remodeling the gun chart. You could redo the gun chart and make roughly similar pistols (9mm, .40, .357, .41 .45) differ by stun multiple instead of base damage. Or not.

 

Similarly buckshot would always be 1/4 penetration and slugs are normal penetration (with options for AP rounds). For people who are not wearing armor it has no effect, but it makes body armor effective.

 

Rifles would do normal penetration, SMGs would do reduced. Though the bullet from an SMG should do more damage than the round from a pistol. Typically has a SMG has a rather higher muzzle velocity.

 

Armour piercing ammo also has significantly less ability to incapacitate an opponent. The whole point of an AP bullet is to hold together and remain stable - which produces a small, clean "through and through" wound channel, while incapacitating someone the optimal effect is a giant hole punched deep into them and all the bullet energy being absorbed by the target, none exiting. The obvious way to model this in hero is two levels of reduced stun multiple, countering the AP modifier.

 

I'd also suggest that pistol AP is limited in effectiveness to only light armor. No matter what, you can't shoot though the armor on a Bradley using a pistol with AP ammo.

 

Modern, high quality hollow-point ammo behaves pretty much the same as FMJ ammo for purposes of punching holes in things other than people. The FBI tests pretty much require this. FMJ ammo will do less damage to a person or critter, so treating it as AP ammo for damage purposes (but not penetration) would make sense. It's not point-cost effective to use - life is hard. Don't take training ammo to a real gunfight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

A couple of days ago, I wrote:

 

I'd like to see some older weapons. For example, the kind of gear that was floating around between, say 1946-1966. That would allow for some classic Cold War espionage games, (and provide some support for Silver Age Champions!). It would also help fill in a gap between Pulp Hero & Golden Age Champions, on the one hand, and the modern period on the other.

 

Since then, I've rechecked the weapons listed in 4th Ed DC. Most of the weapons I was thinking about were, _of course_ there, and doubtless will be in the upcoming version of DC. Oops!

 

Still, some other "old" gear would be nice - perhaps some vehicles and old, clunky radios...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Major Tom

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I have heard of an experimental Rocket assisted grenade' date=' but not for the Mk 19. It's High velocity grenade (3x as fast as the M-203) can reach out to 1600 meters, but is definately an area weapon at that range. It takes something like 15 seconds to get there, and travels on a trajectory almost like a mortar. nasty though.[/quote']

 

I had a chance last night to go through some of my old stuff, and managed

to find the name of the GL that the RAP round was designed for: the XM-174.

It can be mounted either vehicularly on a pintle mount, or on a tripod as a

static-mounted weapon. Its 12-round magazine can be emptied in about 6

seconds, and can function in either automatic or semiautomatic fire mode.

 

Major Tom :cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Major Tom

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

One thing I'd like to see as far as bullet types for the new DC book goes would

be a section dealing with some of the more "cinematic" rounds that have been

seen in recent films -- stuff like the silver nitrate/garlic extract rounds and the

ultraviolet fluid rounds from Underworld, as well as the radio tracer,

bloodsplatter/tranquilizer round and the 12-hour "Mickey Finn" round from XXX.

 

Major Tom :eg:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

We're not going to illustrate all the guns that are written up. We're only going to illustrate more than a tiny fraction of them. Not only is comprehensive illustration unnecessary' date=' but we simply don't have the art budget to commission that many illustrations (or the page space to devote to that type of formatting and layout, which I think it largely wasteful and pointless). The artists don't get paid less simply because the illustrations are small, after all. ;)[/quote']

 

Your absolutely right about the cost Steve. I still think your overlooking a huge resource for Art from HERO Fans. I'm sure several would be more than willing to submit Art for Firearms upon request and be happy with nothing more than their name in credits. (and maybe a copy of the book ;) ).

 

You never know !

 

QM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

So long as the terms "clip" and "magazine" are properly used, as well as "automatic" and "semi-automatic", I'll be happy. (I seldom see these two terms consistently used properly in gaming supplements....)

 

As far as ideas for guns and other toys:

 

Check out the Kalashnikov site. They've got all kinds of neat stuff there.

 

A write up for the M134 minigun, as depicted in the movie Predator, used by Jesse Ventura, baby! The ULTIMATE street sweeper!

 

How about UAV's? There's some really cool stuff on the horizon with these little babies.....some of them are going to be VERY small

 

More to follow....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Armor and Bullets:

 

--Snipped

 

The logical way to fix these sorts of armor issues has severe compatibility issues. So, without having to redo everything an approach that might work that doesn't require gross changes to the system would be to assume that handgun bullets are always "reduced penetration". This takes care of much of the issue.

 

This still leaves the issue with AP bullets. I don’t have a great fix for this without remodeling the gun chart. You could redo the gun chart and make roughly similar pistols (9mm, .40, .357, .41 .45) differ by stun multiple instead of base damage. Or not.

 

Similarly buckshot would always be 1/4 penetration and slugs are normal penetration (with options for AP rounds). For people who are not wearing armor it has no effect, but it makes body armor effective.

 

Rifles would do normal penetration, SMGs would do reduced. Though the bullet from an SMG should do more damage than the round from a pistol. Typically has a SMG has a rather higher muzzle velocity.

 

Armour piercing ammo also has significantly less ability to incapacitate an opponent. The whole point of an AP bullet is to hold together and remain stable - which produces a small, clean "through and through" wound channel, while incapacitating someone the optimal effect is a giant hole punched deep into them and all the bullet energy being absorbed by the target, none exiting. The obvious way to model this in hero is two levels of reduced stun multiple, countering the AP modifier.

 

While I agree with alot of your comments I think many of the ideas are just to difficult to do under the existing rules, the damage range is just too narrow.

 

I was fooling around with RP for shotguns though, basically I added a level of RP, so slugs had one level (but also did a tad more damage than the listed ones) since slugs don't penetrate as well as rifles but in most cases are at the same DC as rifles, buck shot had 2 levels but again increased damage (I was trying to bring them back to the old DI 1d6+1 x4 type of damage), small shot, bird shot 3 levels.

 

I think there are a lot of ways to tweek the gun rules using the HERO rules but not the way guns are written. I don't expect to see much in this way changed "officially" (it would impact to many other game books) but it would be nice to see some ideas for optional rules.

 

AP bullets do, do less damage in HERO, they lose a DC to gain that AP. I've considered reducing the stun X but adding or removing a stun x has huge effects.

 

I would like to see the reintroduction of piercing (Champs 3 power that basically removed 1 pt of armor per level before the attack which would help accomplish many of the things you mentioned.

 

It would also be nice to see some ideas to handle big armored things like tanks to take them well out of the small arms vulnerability range and give more variety to big guns (tank guns, WGM's etc) but again have a feeling that is just too far from the base rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

We're not going to illustrate all the guns that are written up. We're only going to illustrate more than a tiny fraction of them. Not only is comprehensive illustration unnecessary' date=' but we simply don't have the art budget to commission that many illustrations (or the page space to devote to that type of formatting and layout, which I think it largely wasteful and pointless). The artists don't get paid less simply because the illustrations are small, after all. ;)[/quote']

 

I am glad you are going to illustrate some guns atleast :) . All I am saying is that the old field's of fire book was the most popoular shadowrun book among my players of all the shadowrun books I had. And the only one not bought by me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

So long as the terms "clip" and "magazine" are properly used, as well as "automatic" and "semi-automatic", I'll be happy. (I seldom see these two terms consistently used properly in gaming supplements....)

 

 

Then there are the "Shadow Run" idiots that got cyclic rate and velocity confused.

 

The other issue that I see with people trying to use guns in hero is that the concept of how fast you can fire it isn't well represented (vs a semi-competent attempt in Shadow Run). There are reasons that people who carry guns for a living don't carry Desert Eagle .50 AEs to a gunfight. I can put several hammers into a target before a typical person with an .50 AE (or similar huge round) gets the second round off.

 

However, if you are carrying a gun to deal with Grizzly or Kodiak bears then a pistol chambered in .50 AE is lot more convenient than a rifle. They are really slow to shoot follow-up shots due to the recoil, but damned accurate.

 

Equally, if you weight 350 lbs and are proportionately strong it might work also.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...