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Cost of strength vs. benefit


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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

You're all correct! Each adn every one of you! Even those of you who directly contradicted those others of you, you are all correct!

 

I agree completely with everything that's been said on every side of this debate, even the things that contradict the other things. Even things that repeated similar things in the past. It all makes perfect sense.

 

You know what costs too much? TF: Horses.

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

That's why we need to determine how the brick has spent his extra points. He may have other abilities that allow him to pass those challenges.

 

You cherry picked several examples that theoretically gave the advantage to the EB, but it's just as easy to cherry pick other examples that give the advantage to the brick. For example, a parking lot vs a DCV 17 martial artist. The EB will probably have to spread his EB to the point of uselessness to hit, while the Brick can just grab a car and start pounding. One single hit should be enough. Also, against a low DCV target (assuming hit locations not in play which helps both equally), the EB is stuck to the 12d6 EB, while the brick with 30" leap can do 22d6 damage with a movethrough to Godzilla.

 

As far as I know, there's no consensus on any ground rules for the combat wombat thread.

both of your examples assume that combat is on the ground. What about opponents in the air. Not to many things to grab and use as a free weapon at that point. Or things to leap off of either. What if the enemy is trying to get away from the brick and has flight. a movethrough or half move leap and grab are pretty much one shot attempts in this case. which is better in a fight between an appache helicopter vs. an M-1 tank. well the helicopter of course since it was designed to fight tanks and the tank was designed to fight OTHER tanks. Reliance on an attack that reliably is no-range most of the time puts the Brick at a tactical disadvantage most of the time. He is the charging bull that the bullfighters can usually outmaneuver.

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

You're all correct! Each adn every one of you! Even those of you who directly contradicted those others of you, you are all correct!

 

I agree completely with everything that's been said on every side of this debate, even the things that contradict the other things. Even things that repeated similar things in the past. It all makes perfect sense.

 

You know what costs too much? TF: Horses.

lol. so can u explain it to the rest of us buhda master? :lol:

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

I can't help but point out that the "STR is genre" argument has been the one I've pushed during and prior to this thread. :)

 

I stated and still feel this way. STR is costed appropriately. All Stats but Comliness are costed appropriately.

 

I would only change the cost of STR in a Fantasy Hero setting. Period.

 

Hawksmoor

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

both of your examples assume that combat is on the ground. What about opponents in the air. Not to many things to grab and use as a free weapon at that point. Or things to leap off of either. What if the enemy is trying to get away from the brick and has flight. a movethrough or half move leap and grab are pretty much one shot attempts in this case. which is better in a fight between an appache helicopter vs. an M-1 tank. well the helicopter of course since it was designed to fight tanks and the tank was designed to fight OTHER tanks. Reliance on an attack that reliably is no-range most of the time puts the Brick at a tactical disadvantage most of the time. He is the charging bull that the bullfighters can usually outmaneuver.

 

 

Guess what? Hero already has a value for that advantage. It values Range as a +1/2 advantage. Which on a 60 Str would be 30 pts. And guess what else? The advantages of Str are worth far more than 30 pts on a 60 Str.

 

If the target is far enough away that the brick can't leap or throw things at, then the EB is also going to be hurt badly by Range Modifiers. And who says the brick can't fly? He has lots more points to play with than the EB.

 

The EB needs to spend 70 pts to have the same attack and defense level as the brick with 60 Str. (12d6 attack and 12 PD).

 

The Brick spends 25 pts for +50 Str and selling back 25 Stun. Now he's ahead 45 pts, and has the exact same attack, defense, and Stun level as the EB. Of course he's ahead 10 Rec, 10" leap, and all the other nice things that Str is good for such as lifting, grabs, movebys and movethroughs, etc. Even if you value range at 30 pts on 60 Str, the brick is still ahead 15 pts plus 10 Rec, plus all the extras.

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

Guess what? Hero already has a value for that advantage. It values Range as a +1/2 advantage. Which on a 60 Str would be 30 pts. And guess what else? The advantages of Str are worth far more than 30 pts on a 60 Str.

 

If the target is far enough away that the brick can't leap or throw things at, then the EB is also going to be hurt badly by Range Modifiers. And who says the brick can't fly? He has lots more points to play with than the EB.

 

The EB needs to spend 70 pts to have the same attack and defense level as the brick with 60 Str. (12d6 attack and 12 PD).

 

The Brick spends 25 pts for +50 Str and selling back 25 Stun. Now he's ahead 45 pts, and has the exact same attack, defense, and Stun level as the EB. Of course he's ahead 10 Rec, 10" leap, and all the other nice things that Str is good for such as lifting, grabs, movebys and movethroughs, etc. Even if you value range at 30 pts on 60 Str, the brick is still ahead 15 pts plus 10 Rec, plus all the extras.

I seem to recall that STR usable at range should be bought at Telekinesis which does not give any figured stats the last time I checked. But sidestepping that argurment you are still not going to get enough points from figured stat savings to handle every variable situation that his lack of range and lack of points to invest in a power framework are going to cause. The bricks that you describe appear to be very very good at combat and little else. To round out their non combat powers (not skills, as they are just an application of straight points) they are actually going to lose in the points efficiency race vs. an EB with a big multipower reserve. Every point invested in STR for the purposes of high interest figured returns is a long term investment vs. the alternative low interest but high liquidity setup of other character types who can better react to market/combat conditions with many more options. BTW, a brick who depends on thrown objects of opportunity more than just a few times is encouraged to buy the actual ranged attacks according to what I read in the ultimate brick playtest material.

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

I seem to recall that STR usable at range should be bought at Telekinesis which does not give any figured stats the last time I checked. But sidestepping that argurment you are still not going to get enough points from figured stat savings to handle every variable situation that his lack of range and lack of points to invest in a power framework are going to cause. The bricks that you describe appear to be very very good at combat and little else. To round out their non combat powers (not skills' date=' as they are just an application of straight points) they are actually going to lose in the points efficiency race vs. an EB with a big multipower reserve. Every point invested in STR for the purposes of high interest figured returns is a long term investment vs. the alternative low interest but high liquidity setup of other character types who can better react to market/combat conditions with many more options. BTW, a brick who depends on thrown objects of opportunity more than just a few times is encouraged to buy the actual ranged attacks according to what I read in the ultimate brick playtest material.[/quote']

 

 

Unless you're willing to assert that the EB's range advantage on 12d6 is worth 45 pts plus 10 Rec plus 10" leap plus Lifting plus 25 Casual Str plus Combat Maneuvers, I don't see how you can possibly say that a straight EB is competitive. Incidentally, I do agree that a EB in a properly built framework can be competitive.

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

Unless you're willing to assert that the EB's range advantage on 12d6 is worth 45 pts plus 10 Rec plus 10" leap plus Lifting plus 25 Casual Str plus Combat Maneuvers' date=' I don't see how you can possibly say that a straight EB is competitive. [u']Incidentally, I do agree that a EB in a properly built framework can be competitive[/u].
Gary, please point out where I began to give the impression that I was arguing that a character with a naked energy blast (NOT inside any type of power framework) could be competitive with a Brick? To my knowledge, I never did.

 

This whole time I have been arguing the point that you just conceded! Which makes the case that the majority of other posters to this thread seem to agree with: STR is NOT too cheap or too powerful.

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

Gary, please point out where I began to give the impression that I was arguing that a character with a naked energy blast (NOT inside any type of power framework) could be competitive with a Brick? To my knowledge, I never did.

 

This whole time I have been arguing the point that you just conceded! Which makes the case that the majority of other posters to this thread seem to agree with: STR is NOT too cheap or too powerful.

 

 

In your original post, you were trying to devise certain scenarios, but assuming that the brick and EB has the exact same Dex/Spd, Defenses, Con, movements, etc. Which certainly won't be the case since the brick is inherently cheaper. You mentioned nothing about the EB needing a framework to be competitive.

 

It still seems odd that people are arguing that it takes 1 out of whack point structure to balance out a second out of whack point structure.

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

It still seems odd that people are arguing that it takes 1 out of whack point structure to balance out a second out of whack point structure.

 

The point structures can only be out of whack in relation to one another. There is no absolute against which they can be compared. If you eliminate frameworks, it will have an impact on the relative efficiencies of various concepts. Those that would not use frameworks anyway become more efficient compared to those that would. If you do nothing but increease the price of STR, characters who rely on STR, like Bricks, will be disadvantaged as compared to other characters who are not reliant on buying STR.

 

This is a completely separate issue from whether the present structure is, in fact, balanced. If one accepts that STR is underpriced under the current structure, raising it to an appropriate level would remove an advantage enjoyed by bricks, and is fair. If one accepts it is competetively priced with other options in the system, raising its price results in bricks being competetively disadvantaged, and thus is unfair. If one acepots STR is overpriced (good luck finding the supporter for that position!) then lowering its cost removes an unfair disadvantage suffered by bricks.

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

Gary, please point out where I began to give the impression that I was arguing that a character with a naked energy blast (NOT inside any type of power framework) could be competitive with a Brick? To my knowledge, I never did.

 

This whole time I have been arguing the point that you just conceded! Which makes the case that the majority of other posters to this thread seem to agree with: STR is NOT too cheap or too powerful.

 

if this conclusion is based on (hinges on) gary's statement about EBs built into a framework compared to strength, then in campaigns where those frameworks are less common and less an automatic thing (such as IMX heroic level games) then the conclusion that strength is not too cheap or too powerful would not necessarily stand up.

 

Which of course brings us full circle back to post 1... where it was said:

 

I'm thinking 1 point of strength per 2 CP may be more reasonable, especially for heroic campaigns.

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

The point structures can only be out of whack in relation to one another. There is no absolute against which they can be compared. If you eliminate frameworks, it will have an impact on the relative efficiencies of various concepts. Those that would not use frameworks anyway become more efficient compared to those that would. If you do nothing but increease the price of STR, characters who rely on STR, like Bricks, will be disadvantaged as compared to other characters who are not reliant on buying STR.

 

This is a completely separate issue from whether the present structure is, in fact, balanced. If one accepts that STR is underpriced under the current structure, raising it to an appropriate level would remove an advantage enjoyed by bricks, and is fair. If one accepts it is competetively priced with other options in the system, raising its price results in bricks being competetively disadvantaged, and thus is unfair. If one acepots STR is overpriced (good luck finding the supporter for that position!) then lowering its cost removes an unfair disadvantage suffered by bricks.

 

 

I do feel that Str and ECs are both out of whack, especially if you go with pre-5th edition ECs. However, I agree that changing one without changing both at the same time won't provide the desired results.

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

I do feel that Str and ECs are both out of whack' date=' especially if you go with pre-5th edition ECs. However, I agree that changing one without changing both at the same time won't provide the desired results.[/quote']

 

Heh, you open up that can of worms, and you will wind up rebalancing everything in the system. Not worth it, in my view.

 

I have no plans to alter the cost of STR for any superheroic game I run. I historically haven't been greatly invoved in Heroic games so I won't comment much there. However, I will say that the options proposed that look best on paper to me don't involve recosting strength, but instead reduce the impact STR has on figured characteristics.

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

I have no plans to alter the cost of STR for any superheroic game I run. I historically haven't been greatly invoved in Heroic games so I won't comment much there. However' date=' I will say that the options proposed that look best on paper to me don't involve recosting strength, but instead reduce the impact STR has on figured characteristics.[/quote']That would be my own preference as well, were I to be convinced STR is too effective for the price (which I have not been; such overefficiency seems to me to be far more theoretical than is reflected in actual gameplay.). I would probably remove the secondary effect STR has on REC and possibly on STUN in order to make it marginally less cost effective.
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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

That would be my own preference as well' date=' were I to be convinced STR is too effective for the price (which I have not been; such overefficiency seems to me to be far more theoretical than is reflected in actual gameplay.). I would probably remove the secondary effect STR has on REC and possibly on STUN in order to make it marginally less cost effective.[/quote']

In a prior game, we dropped all figured characteristics and messed around a little with costs. I think Dex & Ego were left at 2 points per, while the rest of the primaries were 1 per.

 

This was also a Heroic game, so the numbers were not as high. One thing in Hero is that not all powers scale at the same rate. Things like spreading for OCV get a lot better for EB at the higher levels, at least that was our experience.

My brick in the Protector's had an 8 dex. I wrote down everytime he was missed. In over 900 XP, he was missed less than 20 times. Instead of DCV, he just had defenses. There were on occasion 40d6 EBs being thrown and the Martial Artists would suffer even with a 35 DCV, a 20d6 EB with +20 OCV was worse for them them than 40d6 was to Scales.

 

It's also game dependant. What's abusive in one group, isn't in another. And sometimes a controlled abuse elsewhere can level the playing field in another area.

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

In a prior game, we dropped all figured characteristics and messed around a little with costs. I think Dex & Ego were left at 2 points per, while the rest of the primaries were 1 per.

 

This was also a Heroic game, so the numbers were not as high. One thing in Hero is that not all powers scale at the same rate. Things like spreading for OCV get a lot better for EB at the higher levels, at least that was our experience.

My brick in the Protector's had an 8 dex. I wrote down everytime he was missed. In over 900 XP, he was missed less than 20 times. Instead of DCV, he just had defenses. There were on occasion 40d6 EBs being thrown and the Martial Artists would suffer even with a 35 DCV, a 20d6 EB with +20 OCV was worse for them them than 40d6 was to Scales.

 

It's also game dependant. What's abusive in one group, isn't in another. And sometimes a controlled abuse elsewhere can level the playing field in another area.

 

 

How would you deal with a 20d6 Ego blast or 40d6 Mind Control in such a campaign?

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

How would you deal with a 20d6 Ego blast or 40d6 Mind Control in such a campaign?

You smack the controller real hard. :D

 

Actually in game, the Active points tended to be lower in special attacks so instead of a 20d6 Ego Blast, you'd only have to deal with 15d6 if that. Straight damage was the norm.

 

For mental defenses, Scales had 1/2 Mental damage reduction, 25 points of Ego defense, and a 20 ego. We were also still using Ego multiples for mind control & PRE attacks making it harder to do severe effects there.

 

While we enjoyed having the ability to occasionly roll 100d6, we did back off to campaigns with much lower dice levels. The permutations just got easier to deal with at 20d6. ;)

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

You smack the controller real hard. :D

 

Actually in game, the Active points tended to be lower in special attacks so instead of a 20d6 Ego Blast, you'd only have to deal with 15d6 if that. Straight damage was the norm.

 

For mental defenses, Scales had 1/2 Mental damage reduction, 25 points of Ego defense, and a 20 ego. We were also still using Ego multiples for mind control & PRE attacks making it harder to do severe effects there.

 

While we enjoyed having the ability to occasionly roll 100d6, we did back off to campaigns with much lower dice levels. The permutations just got easier to deal with at 20d6. ;)

 

 

Yeah, from my experiences with an unlimited campaign, everybody purchased damage reduction at high level and high defenses, and everyone tried covering all their bases with every exotic defense, because being uncovered meant a one shot knockout with the number of dice being thrown around.

 

I like lower level campaigns better.

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

However' date=' I will say that the options proposed that look best on paper to me don't involve recosting strength, but instead reduce the impact STR has on figured characteristics.[/quote']

 

I'm inclined to rebalance the distribution of figured between STR and CON, and lower the price of Figured's such that 1/3 of STR's cost and about 2/3 to 4/5 of CON are reflected in Figured's.

 

But I also agree that any "imbalance" is not sufficient to justify changing the costs of anything. To date, the people I game with haven't gone full-bore for STR (whether in heroic or superheroic), whether because there is no balance problem or because they play to concept, not costing. :o

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Re: Cost of strength vs. benefit

 

Yeah, from my experiences with an unlimited campaign, everybody purchased damage reduction at high level and high defenses, and everyone tried covering all their bases with every exotic defense, because being uncovered meant a one shot knockout with the number of dice being thrown around.

 

I like lower level campaigns better.

I agree. I've run one and played in two high point games, and none of them lasted for me. The one I ran failed because it was boring. The group, between them, could solve nearly any problem I came up with without trying. Of the ones I tried playing in, one failed because all the characters turned out the same (when everyone has almost the same states except for you attack power, you might as be playing a ninja turtle), and the other has such weird required powers that it didn't leave much room for concept (how am I supposed to play the street urchin psion or the ultra-perceptive man when I have to buy total life support and FTL?).

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