Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I'll second that endorsement of Gunrunner's words..

 

Really, while I wouldn't appreciate the game company if it were overtly racists or discriminatory ... it is not the responsibility of the game company to sensor the stories told by gamers.

 

Nor is it anyone elses. If a gaming group wishes to do this in a negative manner that is obviously detrimental outside the game then you won't find me there, but they can do it if they would like.

 

I've been discriminated against, like many people, and deeply resent being questioned by police for walking to a 7-11, asked to leave stores and harrased in general but others not like myself ... but that doesn't mean I'll start to hate anyone who carries that into a game for the purpose of the game.

 

Stories, fiction, movies, games all exist for one reason: Entertainment.

 

Yes, it IS just fun & games - that's the point!

 

2nd point - utterly off topic and directed at some of Gunrunner's comments regarind the National Socialist Party (Nazi Party) and it's rise to power...

 

One, Germany was one of the first countries to come out of the Great Depression, the National Socialist Party was lauded as the reason for this and loved by many Germans - and a good portion of the rest of the world - in the early 30s.

 

Two, this is the part that constantly stupfies me even if I can grok it, during the race for election (yeah, they were VOTED into power) one of the first things Hitler and the party said was "They would abolish the Democratic Elections" mostly because they blamed that for the cause of their part in the Great Depression.

 

While the actions starting the mid 30s and through the mid 40s of the Nazi part were undeniably atrocious in many cases and just down right Evil in more .. they can be credited with saving Germany's backside coming out of the 1920s. But then, there's a reason we say "The road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions."

 

Come to think of it... that last quote might be part of Cyst13's point ... despite our best intentions in having fun if we keep certain elements such as stereotyping (which does work to an extent) and racism in our entertainment and games we will never fully stamp it out of society at large and thus perpetuate a problem we know to exist.....

 

It's late though, I shall sleep and ponder on this more.

 

[edit: oh, the spelling errors!]

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I find it interesting that Gunrunner made his argument that people should not be socially pressured into giving up a given viewpoint by comparing me to a Nazi. I asked a straight-forward question in this thread and many of the people who posted here answered with a yes. This is not my attempt to censor the gaming community.

 

My interpretation of Free Speech is that it should be used in an open forum such as the Internet to argue with others within the bounds of rational dialogue. If you convince someone, through peaceful argument, to adopt your viewpoint, that's not censorship. That's exactly the way the First Ammendment has always been intended to be used.

 

If you read my words that Gunrunner quoted, you can see that nowhere in there did I make a suggestion that individual gamers or game companies should be censored. Anyone here is free to do a search on my moniker. You will not find any such suggestion made by me anywhere on these boards. I am not in favor of censorship. I am in favor of dialogue.

 

And just for the record, I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the American Hippie Nazi Party.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

However' date=' I also think that the impulse to form quick judgements about entire groups (race, gender, class, hippies, cops, etc.) is an intrinsically human quality, and not a very good one. I work nightshift at a convenience store in a downtown area and I get tossed a good deal of crap from both Black and White people on a regular basis. While I don't form snap judgements about White people (I'm White myself), I do tend to break them down into sub-groups and go from there. Something along the lines of "I hate those damn street kids!" As much as it galls me to admit it, I do the same along racial lines as well. When the adrenaline wears off and I cool down, I realize the irrationality of my judgement and try to forget it. [/quote']

 

 

I don't think you are being a racist. When the adrenaline cuts in, the human brain is wired to sort friend from foe. It is a defense mechanism. At one time, an enemy was easy to identify because they looked different. Now we have to wear uniforms to be able to tell the enemy apart. Categorizing people when threatened is just the way our brain tries to deal with complexities of a hostile modern society. On the other hand, a racist actively hates people of other ethnic origins regardless of the situation.

 

 

The point is' date=' though, that when I (and I assume I'm not alone) get into a stressful situation, my tendency to form aggressive emotions directed toward an entire group comes to the fore. It's something I have to consciously suppress in myself. And if I were spending every Saturday night pretending to slay evil races, it might not be so easy for me to suppress those real life tendencies. I can't prove this to be true, but if there is a chance that it is true, I don't think the pleasure of slaying orcs compensates for taking that chance.[/quote']

 

 

If you let your job stress build up without some kind of emotional release, you are more likely to one day explode on someone. You need some way to cope with the stress your job generates. I think that slaying a few orcs on the weekend is a very healthy way of releasing the stress. I think if more people chilled and slew a few orcs it would be a much better world.

 

 

.

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

And as an example of using rational dialogue to convince others, I offer Ghost Angel's above post. He started out agreeing with Gunrunner, who's opinion is opposed to mine. Then at the end of his post, after thinking about what I was actually writing, rather than what some one else characterized my opinion to be, he ended up summarizing my own thoughts much more concisely than I ever could. The system works after all.

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

China Bob,

 

Yes, I agree with what you said in your last post. I think it is a primal, intrinsic thing. And as such, we have to consciously avert our thoughts from negative stereotypes. Civility is but a thin veneer atop our baser urges. I do blow off steam at work (an absolute necessity). I just don't know that it's such a good idea to blow off steam by reinforcing the same thought patterns of stereotyping groups that I was trying to avert to begin with. That seems a vicious circle. Usually, I just turn up the radio and do a little dancing.

[trechriron]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

The system works after all…

 

I think you have mistaken your opposition’s stance to be “since your opinion is wrong/bad/stupid you have no right to foster a dialog on the subjectâ€. I think, more to the point, your opposition 1) finds the suggestion of social responsibility in fictional gaming content by the part of gamers and publishers to be misled and 2) you have yet to provide evidence of either a current problem of intentional/unintentional racism in gaming or the existence of intentional/unintentional racism in current products.

 

So going against my original protest of “who cares?†and inferring some sincerity on your part to actually foster dialogue on this subject, I repeat my previous suggestion with more seriousness and less anger.

 

What exactly IS the subject? Please outline your problem and your concerns. I would like you to provide some evidence of both existing products supporting your theory and cite examples of actual play that you feel fosters racism (even in a generic manner would be fine for me). I have a hard time believing this is some random act of curiosity. Something inspired your inquiries.

 

I asked you to pen an essay (might I suggest a PDF attachment?) and that is precisely what I think you should do. If you truly feel this an issue, I think you need to present your idea clearly and do so boldly as to avoid any misunderstanding from your readers. Stating that “the existence of evil dark elves in games is racist†is not a point. I cannot grasp your reasoning from that bold assumption. Further clarifying that statement with “well, what if those dark elves were actually Kabalistic Jews?†only further clouds the issue. I need more theory. Connect the dots for me. Pretend I am an idiot. It helps relieve stress when dealing with me anyways. My friends do it all the time (actually supporting the theory that I AM an idiot, but I prefer denial over debate more often than not…).

 

I look forward to reading your thoughts if you are willing to take the time. If this is really just the simple question of “Is "evil race" an intrinsically racist concept?†then I stick with my original answer. No it is not.

 

On a related note – just because I disagree with your opinion does not mean I think it is stupid. I simply disagree.

 

Regards,

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

If you're worried about the concept of "evil races" in RPG's promoting racism' date=' then implying that companies that publish RPG's should be held accountable for their influence on others is not the answer. Individuals should be held accountable for their own actions.[/quote']

 

Well, Cyst13 isn't writing to his legislator, and isn't even writing to a gaming company. He's writing to some gamers and suggesting that they think about what they do. That seems more like a responsible exercise of free speech than it does like censorship.

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I don't think you are being a racist. When the adrenaline cuts in' date=' the human brain is wired to sort friend from foe. It is a defense mechanism. At one time, an enemy was easy to identify because they looked different.[/quote']

 

There is some very interesing work in experimental psychology being done these days, showing that prejudice is an heuristic that is used to conserve cognitive effort. The ability to act on those rules-of-thumb we call 'prejudices' is an important ability with which we have been graced by evolution (or perhaps by one of the many possible creators) for very reasons that are doubtless very good (or at least were good in the environment in which we were evolved (or for which we are intended). And it ain't going anywhere.

 

The experiemental evidence tends to show that we rely more on these heuristics when cognitive resources are at premium: when we are busy and preoccupied, or when we are dealing with issues at the periphery of our attention while centrally engaged on something else. In short, prejudices come to the fore when we are in circumstances that make it difficult for us to apply conscious viligance. In even shorter, prejudices are difficult to control. This being the case, I urge that we ought to exercise what care we can about forming the wretched things.

 

If you let your job stress build up without some kind of emotional release, you are more likely to one day explode on someone.

 

This opinion is among the matter of Freudian psychology, and was once very influential in informing social policy. In the Seventies it was accepted unquestioningly that one ought to 'vent' anger to avoid the alternatives of either exploding or of 'turning the anger inward' into depression. But this theory has become controversial since, as it turns out to be without evidentiary support. There is a growing body of opinion that 'venting' anger rehearses anger, and leads to more angry behaviour. To become less angry, it is better to employ the techniques of cognitive therapy (also of Stoicism, Christ, St Paul, and the Buddha) to refute the reasoning that leads to anger and cultivate a calm mind.

 

You can read more about this in the popular works of Martin Seligman, such as Authentic Happiness.

 

You need some way to cope with the stress your job generates.

 

Yes. But I question that rehearsing murderous rage is a good way.

[badger3k]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Yes. But I question that rehearsing murderous rage is a good way.

 

Yeah- try this game for stress relief: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/pingu2.php

 

edit - yeah, it's both bloody and violent, but fun...

[Gunrunner]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I find it interesting that Gunrunner made his argument that people should not be socially pressured into giving up a given viewpoint by comparing me to a Nazi.

 

Yes, indirectly I did compare you to a Nazi. This is because I want people to realize the serious danger your logic presents. And despite this or what you may believe, as a member of the U.S. Armed Forces I would fight and die for your right to disagree with me on this or any subject. However, people need to know the words that sew the seeds of tyranny so that even if it happens on a small scale such as this forum, they will be aware of it when it happens on a larger, more politically relevant scale. And as such, I am obligated to give you strong opposition, so if you feel offended by this then too bad. Your feelings are just collateral damage, not the focus of my opposition - so don't take it personally.

 

If you convince someone' date=' through peaceful argument, to adopt your viewpoint, that's not censorship. That's exactly the way the First Ammendment has always been intended to be used.[/quote']

 

I'm sorry, can you quote in this forum where it is that I threatened you? Do not confuse strong, civil opposition with anything other than peaceful argument.

 

If you read my words that Gunrunner quoted' date=' you can see that nowhere in there did I make a suggestion that individual gamers or game companies should be censored. Anyone here is free to do a search on my moniker. You will not find any such suggestion made by me anywhere on these boards.[/quote']

 

Really? What do you call this then?

 

I would much prefer to see the RPG community take responsibility for the extent in which we participate in the creation of social values. I spend as least as much time and energy writing my games as many authors do writing fiction or screenplays. I think I have as least as much responsibility for the content of my imagination as do they.

 

That may be fine for you, but when you begin suggesting what people/organizations should and should not say or take responsibility for, that is a form of censorship IMHO and such logic leads to worse forms of censorship. If I believed that an RPG was promoting strong racism, then I would tell that RPG's creator and everyone else that it is pure crap. What I don't do is tell that person what he should or shouldn't say. It's his right to publish whatever RPG he wants, and I'm not foolish enough to believe that people are such mindless sheep that it is the RPG - not the people - that must be held accountable for any actions such a game may influence. Many Jews died during the Spanish Inquisition, but I don't blame Christianity nor the Bible for that.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

when you begin suggesting what people/organizations should and should not say or take responsibility for' date=' that is a form of censorship IMHO[/quote']No it isn't. Censorship must include the power to remove material from the document under examination.

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I'm sorry' date=' can you quote in this forum where it is that I threatened you?[/quote']

 

On the other hand, can you quote in this forum where Cyst tried to censor or advocating censoring anyone? He is using peaceful argument to try to persuade others to his viewpoint. That isn't censorship, so don't try to confuse the issue by accusing him of attempting or advocating censorship.

 

Really? What do you call this then?

 

I don't know what Cyst calls it, but to me it looks like a reasonable and civil plea for roleplayers to act responsibly in consultation with their own consciences. I can't see how anyone could reasonably construe it as an argument that the authorities should impose censorship.

 

That may be fine for you, but when you begin suggesting what people/organizations should and should not say or take responsibility for, that is a form of censorship IMHO and such logic leads to worse forms of censorship.

 

And you are suggesting that Cyst13 ought not to say that people should take responsibility for what they publish and play? That they ought not to consider the possibility that their games might affect their mental habits?

 

And since it is obviously alright for you to say that Cyst ought not to say that sort of thing, why is it not alright for Cyst to say that people ought not to publish or play dangerous RPGs? Why is what you are doing not censorship?

 

By all means tell us if you think that evil races in fantasy are not racist, or that playing racist games presents no danger of making us racist. Argue, if you wish, that it isn't the players' or the publishers' fault if the games that they publish and play do make them racist. Hell, it's a free 'Net, so you can go on telling Cyst not to express his opinion because it promotes censorship: if you want. But saying "Don't say what you think: people should be allowed to say what they think" does come across as a paradox.

 

It's his right to publish whatever RPG he wants, and I'm not foolish enough to believe that people are such mindless sheep that it is the RPG - not the people - that must be held accountable for any actions such a game may influence.

 

"Sow a thought, reap a deed;

"Sow a deed, reap a habit;

"Sow a habit, reap a character;

"Sow a character, reap a destiny."

 

If you play a racist game and that makes you racist (it might not), so that you commit a racist offence (not all racists do), that is indeed your fault. Perhaps, therefore, it is a good idea not to play a racist game. I'm not suggesting that we ought to empower the authorities to censor RPGs. I'm just asking that we all think about this, consult our consciences, and act with prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude: when we are publishing games and designing adventures, just as we ought in everything else we do.

 

The right of freedom of speech provides that no expression of a view can be a crime. Which is not to say that no expression of a view can be morally wrong. Pointing out that an act is morally wrong, and asking one's fellow-citizens to abstain from that act is not the same as coercing abstention.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

You are correct and I retract that statement, but I still oppose that logic.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I am referring to Doug's post in the above statement.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

"And since it is obviously alright for you to say that Cyst ought not to say that sort of thing, why is it not alright for Cyst to say that people ought not to publish or play dangerous RPGs? Why is what you are doing not censorship?"

 

I'm sorry Agemegos, but can YOU quote where it is that I said cyst ought not to say something? I just said that I don't agree with what he's saying. If you actually considered what I posted you would realize this. You remember the part where I said that I'd fight for cyst's freedom to disagree and argue with me? Was there something there that I said that you don't understand?

 

I'm not going to argue with you about responsibility of influence because it is just a matter of opinion/differing theories of which we both disagree.

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I'm sorry Agemegos' date=' but can YOU quote where it is that I said cyst ought not to say something?[/quote']

 

My apologies, I considered that to be the implication of rabbitting on about the First Amendment (which forbids censorship) in close juxtaposition to describing what he was doing as censorship.

 

But since we are now agreed that Cyst is not attempting censorship and is not threatening anyone's First Amendment rights that part of the argument is moot.

 

The issue comes down to a question of whether it is a moral danger to play RPGs in which racist assumptions (eg. that a person's deserts can depend on his or her race) are true. I guess we agree that if rehearsing racist attitudes in RPGs tends to make us more likely to act on such attitudes in real life then it is such a danger. I guess that we also agree that that condition is a matter of fact that we can only be informed of by empirical evidence, and that such evidence is not available at the moment.

 

This being the case, I guess that all I can reasonably ask is that you be aware of the issue, keep half an eye out for the evidence when and if it becomes available, and act in this, as in everything, not unadvisedly or wantonly, but thoughtfully and conscientiously.

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

You remember the part where I said that I'd fight for cyst's freedom to disagree and argue with me?

 

I also remembered the part where you likened him to a NAZI, the part where you proudly associated yourself with the US armed forces, and what the US armed forces fought for in connection with NAZIs. And I remembered the part where you pushed an unjustifiable accusation of censorship, and implied that Cyst was attacking game publishers' First Amendment rights. You do agree that denying people their First Amendment rights is something that ought to be prevented?

 

[edited to add] I don't mean to imply here any disparagement of what the US Armed forces did against NAZIism. On the contrary, I agree that US efforts against German, Japanese, Italism and French fascism were proper and heroic.

 

I just wish that people in general would be a little slower to liken people to NAZIs for cheap rhetorical purposes. The NAZIs killed, tortured, and enslaved millions of innocent people. Asking gamers and game publishers to act responsibly in view of a possible danger is not in the same boat by any means. It was necessary to kill and die to stop the NAZIs. It is not necessary to kill and die to stop people like Cyst and me. We are not killing, torturing, or enslaving anyone. We are only expressing a concern that we have, and asking people to think about it and act circumspectly.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Well said Agemegos, well said. On those points I can agree.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Dangit man, you keep posting as I write something! Anyways, I do believe that the ACT of denying people their First Amendment rights should be prevented, but I also believe I must expose the logic used that sets the precedent for such an act. Speaking and acting are two different things entirely in my opinion. The right to speak about such an act I would support (even if I don't agree with it and would argue against it), but not the action of denial itself.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I also remembered the part where you likened him to a NAZI' date=' the part where you proudly associated yourself with the US armed forces, and what the US armed forces fought for in connection with NAZIs. And I remembered the part where you pushed an unjustifiable accusation of censorship, and implied that Cyst was attacking game publishers' First Amendment rights.[/quote']

 

It seems to me like you have a problem with me being a proud American, I fail to understand what you're implying here. As far as accusing cyst of censorship, I already conceded the point on that so why are you bringing it up again?

[Gunrunner]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I missed the part where you answered my first question. Please disregard.

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Dangit man' date=' you keep posting as I write something! Anyways, I do believe that the ACT of denying people their First Amendment rights should be prevented, but I also believe I must expose the logic used that sets the precedent for such an act. Speaking and acting are two different things entirely in my opinion. The right to speak about such an act I would support (even if I don't agree with it and would argue against it), but not the action of denial itself.[/quote']

 

Fair enough. Is it okay if I ask you to go a little easier on the NAZI analogies? You are afraid that Cyst and I will provide a moral justification for censorship if we established a belief that it is morally wrong to say or publish certain things. I am afraid that you will establish a moral justification for killing Cyst (and by extension me) if you establish a belief that we are equivalent to Hitler.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

My point was only to present a worst-case scenario. I don't believe you or cyst is an evil, tyrannical Nazi and I hope no one actually took it as my intent to denounce you as such. I know that both your intentions are good, but Ghost Angel's quote summarizes my beliefs about what cyst has been saying "The road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions."

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

My point was only to present a worst-case scenario. I don't believe you or cyst is an evil' date=' tyrannical Nazi and I hope no one actually took it as my intent to denounce you as such.[/quote']

 

Similarly, it was not my intent (and I think it was not Cyst's intent) to urge that games ought to be censored.

 

I know that both your intentions are good, but Ghost Angel's quote summarizes my beliefs about what cyst has been saying "The road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions."

 

The road to censoring games is paved with arguments that games can promote bad behaviour. The road to lynching Cyst and me is paved with arguments that we are like the NAZIs. Both intentions may be good. But both destinations are Hell. Let's all be careful about what paths we are paving.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Well... I just read all that back and forth and over and under ...

 

1) I don't actually agree with Cyst in that we should be policing our personal entertainment for instances of immorality. We don't have ThoughtCrime yet...

 

2) I don't actually agree with Gunrunner in that Cyst's statements will, in an extreme case, lead to censorship or squishing of 1st Amendment rights.

 

3) Generally I don't agree with anyone at all actually.... no wait, off topic.

 

"With Freedom Comes Responsiblity"

 

Freedom-

We should have the freedom (which no one has denied mind you) to express concepts that are on moral shaky ground (racism, mysoginy, etc..) within a fictional setting such as an RPG.

 

this does several things - Firstly it makes sure we know and can identify those concepts in a Real Life setting and prevent them (hopefully). Secondly it allows us to act out certain less savory aspects of our culture in order to educate the young in what not to do - they won't know it's wrong to hate people unless we tell them, entities such as stories, RPGs, etc.. allow us to show them both the act and possible concequences of the act in concrete terms by example. Thirdly - Orcs are evil, they should be all killed (no, wait .. off topic again - ignore that last part).

 

Responsibility-

We need to recognize when we are acting in a manner detrimental to society and discontinue that act. If we are propegating Racial Hatred (as is the focus of this discussion) in Real Life situations we should stop ourselves or be made to stop by those around us - peer pressure is a wonderful thing occasionally.

 

Playing a game in which we act out certain unsavory feelings is not detrimental to society at large - in fact it can be healthy as a person can remove agressive tendencies in a controlled setting, eat a pizza and go home.

 

It is not our responsiblity to prevent someone from Thinking Evil, it is our responsiblity to prevent someone from Acting Evil ie "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose."

 

Given the above (I had more points ... but they elude me at the moment) both Cyst and Gunrunner are absolutely 100% in the correct.... even if on polar opposites of the Opinion-O-Meter.

 

Cyst believes we should take care in the things we say and act out within a game, which we might want to look at, in order to make sure they stay in the game and don't leak out.

 

Gunrunner believes that no actions should be censored/lessened in any manner, which is correct as long as people take the personal responsibility to police themselves this will cause no problems at all, ever.

 

Unforetunately under any system from Anarchy to Totalitarianism you'll always get a few extremists and fringe elements that'll mess it all up, take stuff the wrong way and generally act like gits making the whole situation a pain in the backside for the rest of the world. These people should be likened to Orcs and slaughtered .. (I'm kidding. mostly).

 

In short: We should have the freedom to think and act out whatever we feel is correct, but should be sure not to infringe on the ability of others to do the same.

 

there was more .. I know there was. shoot.

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