"Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

[steriaca]

What do you think about magic as 'science', with haveing to obay certan laws and such? I ask this, because I watched the first four epasolds of Full Metal Alchemist (an intresting anime series) at Gamefest Milwaukee, and it seems that there is a big sciente background to the alchemisty (for example, the main big rule for Alchemisty is that you must give up something of equal value to acheve the effect you want, which Al and his brother learned when trying to bring there mother back to life).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

You can set up your own meta-rules as a campaign guideline either at the setting level (affects all magic), or at the subsystem level (affects only particular kind(s) of magic) quite easily.

 

I briefly discuss this type of "Control Factor" in one of the documents on my website.

 

 

For a literary example of this type of Magic, check out Master of the Five Magics by Lyndon Hardy. Its hard to find, being out of print, but well worth the effort of tracking it down. I think Steve even references it in Fantasy HERO.

[trechriron]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

Also, Isac Bonewits wrote a very cool GURPS book called Authentic Thaumaturgy. It discusses the common laws of magic and they operate with some "science" as it were. His book Real Magic is supposed to be an interesting read (have not read it yet).

 

Ars Magica has "laws" as well. It confines things and gives magic a flavor that is different than the typical fantasy fair.

 

I like the idea from two angles.

 

One is that magic must follow certain laws, rules, etc from a "scientific" outlook. It constrains things and gives them flavor. You don't really need game rules at this point, it simply defines the "physics" of magic. If it is impossible to affect the moon, it is impossible.

 

The other is having magic replace technology for power, communication, manufacturing, etc. So you have crystal lattice main boards with magically created gem stone processors. They are powered by magic like laptop batteries and store information in crystals. Communications are facilitated by magic as are the magical engineering of super-substances that are not possible in the real world. I like it as a rubber science explanation for things as it gives you some leeway to play around with stuff and explain it with magic. Especially if you don't want to try and give it some basis on physics or current scientific theories. Just because that star ship has plasma screens with configurable touch sensitive controls does not mean the underlying technology is based on real science or technology. Essentially replace physics with some type of magical scientific laws that allow for more flexibility.

 

HERO is perfect for emulating this kind of stuff. The system does not care where the stinking power source came from or why the plasma screen works. These concepts are great for adding flavor to a setting. OTOH, you can make required limitations like expendable focus, RSR, etc. that emulate the nature of your scientific laws of magic. If magic only works with a commensurate expenditure of an equal valued focus, then magic is very special indeed. “Honey, where did I put the Hope Diamond? I have that ritual…†:-D

 

Do you have a specific setting or game in mind for this? Just curious.

 

Here is the link to the GURPS book in case you’re interested. http://www.sjgames.com/thaumaturgy/

[UltraRob]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

Just to add, something you might consider tracking down for anyone interested in "magi-tech" is a Japanese comic by a dude named Masamune Shirow called "Orion". It shows an entire spacefaring civiliation based on "psycho-science" (as the English translators called it) which is a highly advanced form of magic with regular science as a subset of the true science, which is "psycho science". The damn thing is so complex I can only barely begin to explain it, but so cool that I've always planned to use it as my template for an advanced magitech setting someday...

 

Some Info About Orion and it's Setting

 

Rob

[Nyrath]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

For inspiration, there was a facinating fantasy novel called Master of the Five Magics by Lyndon Hardy (yes, there are two other novels in the series, but I wouldn't bother with them if I were you). It sets up five classes of magic, each with its own rules. Thaumaturgy is like physics, Alchemy is like chemistry, Sorcery is like psychology, Magic is like mathematics, and Demology is like, er, ah, sort of a combination of gremlins and Murphy's law.

 

Another interesting series is Wiz Biz and Wiz Biz II by Rick Cook. In a parallel universe, the dragons, elves, and other magical creatures have hunted human beings almost to extinction. The greatest human wizard gives his life casting a spell to summon a being from another world which will save humanity.

 

"Wiz" Zumwalt, a young hot-shot computer hacker from Berkeley. Oops.

 

At first Wiz is helpless. He can't fight, he can't march, he's worthless.

 

Until he discovers how to make magic work like computer programming. Suddenly he's the most powerful wizard in the entire universe!

 

I also second GURPS: Authentic Thaumaturgy. A very useful book.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

RE: WizBiz: IIRC, he brings over some other proggies to help him later on.

 

IIRC he creates "script daemons" to generate spells, and things like that. The idea was kind of amusing.

 

As far as the other two books in the Master of Five Magics series, I thought they were ok, though they didnt live up to the potential of the 1st book.

[Zeropoint]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

It's an interesting idea, and I think that magic should have some structure to it, but if you break it down too far, the final product isn't magic anymore, it's just different science.

 

If you want young wizards learing about how the maximum mana that can be extracted from a gem is equal to the product of the square root of the gem's mass times the local mana level times a constant (which varies according to the type of gem being used), that will seem scientific. Then you could have them use this information to answer questions like, "Kasdreven wants to create a magical barrier covering five square meters, capable of dissipating 30 kilowatts and withstanding a peak power density of 2 megawatts per square meter. If the local mana level is 500 millithaumas, what is the minimum mass of an emerald capable of powering the barrier?"

 

Science deals with effects that are the necessary results of certain initial conditions. In my mind, one of the key factors that makes magic magic is the will of the user--the fact that something is happening not because it is the inevitable conclusion mandated by the laws of physics, but because you decided that it should happen.

 

Well, that's my take on it, anyway. Feel free to disregard.

 

Zeropoint

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

The "Lord Darcy" seroies of fantasy/mystery/alternate history stories postulates magic as a Chruich-approved science that is superior to all other forms of technolgoy, but is more subtle and, when misused, affects the user. Black Magoic can cuase great harm but evenrtually destroys the minds of its users, in addition to being a felony in and of itself. "Black mgaic is a matter of symbolism and intent" -- so if you attempt to harm someone with magic, you are also harming yourself.

 

Honest practitioners are licensed with the Catholic Church. Givne that priests really could cure illnesses in their parishoners by laying on of hands, the education of priests and lay healers imrpoved, the Chruch became less corrupt, and the Reformation was averted. Sinc emagic is a science with teachable laws 9if you have the talent to use them), Jewish rabbis and Islamic clerics can also use these powers to minister to their flocks. Some things you still need a "chiurgeon" for, though -- before the pirest closes the wound in your leg, you might want to ahve that bullet taken out.

[Nyrath]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

RE: WizBiz: IIRC, he brings over some other proggies to help him later on.

IIRC he creates "script daemons" to generate spells, and things like that. The idea was kind of amusing.

The "conventional" wizards are baffled by Zumwalt's spells. The spells seem to be composed of hundreds of small weak spells working together to create major-league effects. This is because Zumwalt's spells are composed of computer programming subroutines.

 

In later books, the conventional wizards are more or less incapable of learning Zumwalt's system, because they are too fossilized in their thinking.

 

It's like trying to teach map use to a member of a primitive culture who do not have the concept of "one-to-one correspondence". They cannot understand how that jagged symbol on the map corresponds to Mt. Baldy, nor the dot indicating Wattle-Daub Village.

 

If you pointed to the dot and said you wanted to be there, the local might place the map on the ground and step on the dot.

[Nyrath]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

It's an interesting idea, and I think that magic should have some structure to it, but if you break it down too far, the final product isn't magic anymore, it's just different science.

--snip--

Then you could have them use this information to answer questions like, "Kasdreven wants to create a magical barrier covering five square meters, capable of dissipating 30 kilowatts and withstanding a peak power density of 2 megawatts per square meter. If the local mana level is 500 millithaumas, what is the minimum mass of an emerald capable of powering the barrier?"

And Terry Pratchett notes that you measure the local mana level with a (wait for it) Thaumometer (*rimshot*)

 

I see what you are saying, but magic has to have some structure or it cannot be simulated with the Hero System, short of making every spell a virtual power pool.

 

And there are those who maintain that magic is a different science. Such as Isaac Bonewits.

 

Personally I see it as merely different flavors. Yes, magic uses runes and funny chalk diagrams, but chemistry uses glass beakers with bubbling liquids, astronomy uses telescopes and cameras, and physics uses atom smashers and laser beams.

 

YMMV

[Zeropoint]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

I suppose it all boils down to the tastes of the setting designer, and what they want to emphasize (how's that for a cop-out?).

 

You are absolutely correct about magic needing some kind of structure. I believe it was H. G. Wells who said, "If anything can happen, then nothing is interesting."

 

I've read one of the Lord Darcy stories (I'd like to read more, but haven't seen a book around lately), and found that magic whose properties are well understood by both the author and characters makes for intriguing and intellectually satisfying storytelling, and lends a strong sense of realism to the work.

 

My own preferrence for magic, though, would have it draw from art as well as science. In the same way that chemical laws, optical laws, color theory, and composition theory can never completely account for, say, Van Gogh's "Starry Night", it seems to me that magic should have something that goes beyond simple cause-and-effect laws.

 

Of course, I could be making a false distinction here. Computer programming is a wholly deterministic, rule-governed field, yet programmers recognize that truly great code is spawned in beauty, art, skill, and perhaps a little "magic".

 

I think I've just argued myself out of my point. Or shifted to a subtly different distinction, or something.

 

Zeropoint

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

Hi guys, Although I am not familiar with the specific stories being discussed they do sound similar to others stories I've read by Larry Niven:

The Magic Goes Away

The Flying Sorcerers

The first book describes a world that was formerly high magic but has waned of late due to 'mana' levels dropping. For anyone familiar with Magic the Cardboard Crack Game NevinYrral's disk is from this story.

 

The second book is an exploration of the perception of high technology as magic to a sufficiently primitive culture. Very comedic in its own way.

 

Does anyone know who's mana stories came first?

[Nyrath]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

Does anyone know who's mana stories came first?

According to Wikipedian, Niven coined the term.

--

SURREAL SAGE SEZ: Make a man a fire, and he'll be warm for the night, Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life

[Agemegos]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

For inspiration' date=' there was a facinating fantasy novel called [b']Master of the Five Magics[/b] by Lyndon Hardy (yes, there are two other novels in the series, but I wouldn't bother with them if I were you).

 

I wouldn't bother with the first book much either. Characterisation was pretty flat and the story made no sense. If there had not chanced to be a person capable of mastering all five classes of magic in exactly the right place at the right time, or if that person had chanced to be ill-disposed, or if an accident had befallen him or her, then the plan would have failed and civilisation been doomed (or whatever it was that was at stake, it has been a long time since I read it). To work, the grand plan had to take in tens of thousands of candidates, not just one.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

There was a plan?

 

It's been a while since I've read it, but it seems to me that it was a prophecy being fulfilled. Not the sort of thing that generally gets planned out, so much as something that just happens.

 

He didn't really master anything anyway. He was a journeyman thaumaturgist, and a bare apprentice in everything else.

[Markdoc]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

According to Wikipedian' date=' Niven coined the term.

]

 

The word mana - meaning inherent quasi-magical power that can be increased or diminished by certain actions - has been around in micronesia-branch polynesian languages for centuries: I assume Niven lifted it from there. He certainly popularised it, though.

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Magic" Through Scientific Laws?

 

I wouldn't bother with the first book much either. Characterisation was pretty flat and the story made no sense. If there had not chanced to be a person capable of mastering all five classes of magic in exactly the right place at the right time' date=' or if that person had chanced to be ill-disposed, or if an accident had befallen him or her, then the plan would have failed and civilisation been doomed (or whatever it was that was at stake, it has been a long time since I read it). To work, the grand plan had to take in tens of thousands of candidates, not just one.[/quote']

What plan? it was a prophesy type thing. That's how all literary prophecies work. We know the main character is the person in the prophecy. What is a literary prophecy other than a huge contrivance anyway?

 

Has any author ever written a book about a character wrapped up in a prophecy only to have it turn out that they really arent the person in the prophecy afterall? Some books have included characters that were failed would-be prophecy fillers such as Logain and Mazrim Taim from WoT, and IIRC there was a character in one of the Dune books who was intended to fill the Muad dib prophecy but who wasnt the right one, but the main characters were obviously the prophecied ones in both cases -- the false starts were secondary characters at best.

 

Besides all of that, it just makes logical sense that unless you specifically and arbitrarily forbid it, if you have multiple power systems in your setting somebody somewhere across the wholeness of time could theoretically learn all of them. No matter how unlikely or difficult, unless it were outright impossible it could happen.

 

 

Besides the point to reading Master of Five Magics isnt to follow the plot or the character, its to see five very clearly described and codified Magic Systems in context with each other. Thats what makes MoFM of interest to RPGers -- it is very upfront about how it's magic systems work, and has more than one magic system to boot.

 

Most settings with Magic have just one form of Magic, and further those systems are often not clearly explained or defined. Often the magic systems just exist to enable a contrived ending, or serve more traditional literary purposes by narrowing a character's decision set to basically drive the plot around.

 

In MoFM's for the most part the systems do what they do, and the main character (Aldecar? cant recall his name off hand) basically goes against the plot elements to force his way into not just the magic systems in question but more importantly the organizations and day to day realities of those who use the magic systems.

 

Personally I really liked how he used elements from one Magic to enhance, simplify, or expedite another. Like using Thaumaturgy and Wizardry to reduce the randomness of Alchemy. That was a neat bit, I thought. The book has little things like that here and there which are great "flavor" bits.

 

 

Finally, I thought the ending did a pretty good job of adhering to the limitations of the different magic systems as they had been portrayed, and their use hung together by the internal logic of the setting.

 

The basic plot was nothing amazing. The book wasnt about the destination, it was about the journey. It didnt even really need the big finish; he could have just learned the five magics and gone off to live in cabin somewhere to ponder it all. The ending didnt matter. It was the exposition of the five magics and their use that was intriguing.