Oihid

[Gary]

Is anyone else annoyed at the OIHID limitation? It seems to me that this is one of the most abused limitations around. A 350 pt character who has OIHID on 250 of his points saves 50 pts, making him significantly more powerful than a 350 built straight. And in my experience, it doesn't usually come up enough to warrant that much savings. There's a limit to how much a GM can screw with a player before it stops becoming fun.

 

My suggestion is to make OIHID a Physical Limitation. 10 pts of Limitation for every 50 pts of power affected. X1/2 if it takes a phase or less to change into hero ID or if the character is almost never in "normal" ID, and X1.5 if it takes a full turn or longer to change into Hero ID as long as the character is in "normal" ID a fair amount of the time.

 

So Captain Marvel might take this on 1000 of his points, getting a 200 pt Physical Limitation X1/2 because it's trivial for him to say "Shazam". He nets 100 pts.

 

This Physical Limitation idea would also be good for powers that don't work in very rare situations not worth a full -1/4. Instead of getting a -1/4 for powers that don't work under a red sun or powers that don't work under a full moon (it's almost impossible to make these worth the points savings without tremendous contortions), the player would get a Physical Limitation where the points match how limiting it is for him.

 

The difference between having a power limitation and a physical limitation is that in many campaigns, there are limits to how many Disadvantages a player can take. Saving 50 pts through power limitations means that you're 50 pts more powerful. Saving 50 pts through physical limitations merely means that you have fewer additional disads that you must take.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Oihid

 

I'm in agreement with you here. I haven't seen OIHID "disadvantage" players very often, and the times it does seem forced.

 

The best use I've seen is to involve the PCs in a conflict in their secret IDs, but my players don't want to roleplay that aspect often enough for it to seem natural.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

Well, compared to the focus family of limits (which it plays a lot like) I don't see OIHID as a problem. I do take a step to make it more of a real limit in my games; I require the Heroic ID itself to carry some disadvantages that would make it awkward to constantly be the Hero, usually in the form of Distictive Features and sometimes Physical Limits. Of builds I posted recently:

 

Athenian - Can't pass for a normal woman in her Heroic ID

 

Kanae - Can't pass for human at all, and has no fine manipulation, plus other limits.

 

Caballero - Can't pass for a normal human in his Heroic ID, and has some minor physical limits.

 

That approach (imo) gives the player a real reason to stay Human in many parts of the adventure.

 

Counting Limitation points as part of disads doesn't really appeal to me, unless we do it that way with all limitations. Personally, if I were to dialow OIHID and make it a disad, I'd treat it like any other Phsyical Limit. In would be Greatly Impairing, and the Frequency would vary according to how often it was going to cause problems in game.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Well, compared to the focus family of limits (which it plays a lot like) I don't see OIHID as a problem. I do take a step to make it more of a real limit in my games; I require the Heroic ID itself to carry some disadvantages that would make it awkward to constantly be the Hero, usually in the form of Distictive Features and sometimes Physical Limits. Of builds I posted recently:

 

Athenian - Can't pass for a normal woman in her Heroic ID

 

Kanae - Can't pass for human at all, and has no fine manipulation, plus other limits.

 

Caballero - Can't pass for a normal human in his Heroic ID, and has some minor physical limits.

 

That approach (imo) gives the player a real reason to stay Human in many parts of the adventure.

 

Counting Limitation points as part of disads doesn't really appeal to me, unless we do it that way with all limitations. Personally, if I were to dialow OIHID and make it a disad, I'd treat it like any other Phsyical Limit. In would be Greatly Impairing, and the Frequency would vary according to how often it was going to cause problems in game.

 

 

How often do these characters get caught with their pants down, and how easy is it for them to switch forms?

 

I don't like treating OIHID like a regular physical disad. It has the potential to zap hundreds or thousands of points of the character, so IMO it should be worth more.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

I think OIHID serves a purpose by allowing smaller roleplaying groups (3-4 players) to potentially still have a well-rounded group via slight increases to power level and variety with an otherwise smaller group of characters. This in turn allows a GM to still use published material at the ~350 point power levels without too much extra tweeking. It also presents an early storytelling opportunity when the Bad Guy of the Week TM shows up near the OIHID Hero while he/she is normal form. A sense of fun on both the player and GM is necessary to pull this off of course.

 

I and several others have used this limitation to construct otherwise difficult at best concepts that fit into a team. Superman and the Justice League is a perfect example. Any writeup of that team is either going to have Superman be almost double the points of the other characters OR apply an equivalent limitation to his powers (not in red solar radiation or near kryptonite).

 

I posted the character my board userid was named after on another recent thread and I suspect that it might have sparked the idea behind this thread which is cool. I applied most of the point benefits of OIHID on that character to non-combat powers, talents and skill enhancers. Primarily due to have a very small gaming group. If another player wanted to cover some of the bases that I designed that character to handle I could certainly drop 15-20 points in talents and/or powers. Combat wise, a equivalent power level of character could be constructed. I remember seeing Killer Shrike post a character, named appropriately Hype, several months ago that fits that bill quite nicely if I remember correctly.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oihid

 

How often do these characters get caught with their pants down, and how easy is it for them to switch forms?

 

I don't like treating OIHID like a regular physical disad. It has the potential to zap hundreds or thousands of points of the character, so IMO it should be worth more.

 

Well, if it should be worth hundreds of points as a disadvantage, why shouldn't it be worth huindreds of points as a limitation? It seems to me all you're doing is capping the OIHID benefit at the campaign max for disadvantages from a single category.

 

While I don't see the need to eliminate it, I'm not aware of any player in any games I run or play in having taken it (of course, I haven't read their character sheets...). I agree with Oddhat that there must be some limitation at least as bad (frequently problematic) as an inobvious inaccessible focus (which, n my experience, isn't often either).

 

If I did eliminate it in favour of a physical limitation, I agree with Oddhat that there's no reason it should point out any different than any other physical limitation.

 

To the issue raised by HyperMan, I would rather see that solved by an across the board increase in points available to all characters (perhaps with the proviso they may only be spent in certain areas) than allow one character an effective point advantage.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

How often do these characters get caught with their pants down, and how easy is it for them to switch forms?

 

I don't like treating OIHID like a regular physical disad. It has the potential to zap hundreds or thousands of points of the character, so IMO it should be worth more.

 

All of them will have to spend time in human form in almost every adventure in the type of games I run; They can't have normal human lives in their enhanced forms. That's the point of the disads they're required to take. As to getting "caught with their pants down", they have that problem as often as anyone with a -1/4 IIF, which is kind of the point.

 

IMO, making all Limits disads, priced by how often and how much they actually interfere and saving no other points, might make sense. I don't see a compelling reason for pulling OIHID out and leaving most of the other -1/4 limits in.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

Miracle Man comic. Miracle Man is like Superman plus. He is almost all-powerful. He has to say a magic word to change from normal to 'god mode' (Kimota...sort of atomic backwards)

 

Big explosion all around him when he changes. Really dramatic.

 

Anyway, Evelyn Cream, something like a villain, gets in a lift with Mike Moran (MM in human form) and a mother and baby combo. Mike is asked to hold the baby and then Evelyn reveals he is there to shoot Mike, which he does. Can't change or it is crispy baby...

 

Same comic, there is a word that turns MM back into Mike Moran, forcing a reversal of OIHID. He also changes back when he says Kimota, whether he wants to or not. That doesn't happen often...

 

OK, that isn't how it works in HERO but there has to be some disadvantage to changing, even if it is only a time delay. You can always build other effects as outlined above. Something to spend those extra points on...

 

I do think OIHID is misused. I wouldn't allow it normally for purely offensive powers without good reason (you'll be in hero ID if you want to use them anyway so it isn't much of a disadvantage), but they are fine for defensive or part defensive powers and characteristics (including strength) so long as you define how the change takes place.

 

It can be devastating to a group to get hit out of Hero ID by a well prepared villain - one or two might get taken down before the fight gets going. You wouldn't want it to happen all the time, but for the points saving the player has to expect a quite serious down side now and then.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oihid

 

If you really think it's abused, you can level the field with "only in villain ID".

 

You can then show the players how you believe that should be limiting by having something happen with the limitation now and then.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

If you really think it's abused, you can level the field with "only in villain ID".

 

You can then show the players how you believe that should be limiting by having something happen with the limitation now and then.

 

Agreed here. Many of the -1/4 limits are self-enforcing. 15 or less activation? Sooner or later you will blow the roll. Gestures? Eventually, you will be entangled. Of those that require more attention from the GM (OIHID, IIF, Incantations, etc), I haven't found OIHID to be less of a limit, as long as it's enforced.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Well' date=' if it should be worth hundreds of points as a disadvantage, why shouldn't it be worth huindreds of points as a limitation? It seems to me all you're doing is capping the OIHID benefit at the campaign max for disadvantages from a single category.[/quote']

 

You just answered your own question. Hundreds of points as a limitation effectively increases the characters power level by hundreds of points. Hundreds of points as a Disad is capped, and usually just means that the character has to take fewer other Disads.

 

 

While I don't see the need to eliminate it, I'm not aware of any player in any games I run or play in having taken it (of course, I haven't read their character sheets...). I agree with Oddhat that there must be some limitation at least as bad (frequently problematic) as an inobvious inaccessible focus (which, n my experience, isn't often either).

 

If I did eliminate it in favour of a physical limitation, I agree with Oddhat that there's no reason it should point out any different than any other physical limitation.

 

To the issue raised by HyperMan, I would rather see that solved by an across the board increase in points available to all characters (perhaps with the proviso they may only be spent in certain areas) than allow one character an effective point advantage.

 

 

I guess in my mind, I have a philosophical problem with a character who's effectively 400-450 pts 95% of the time, and 50-100 pts the other 5% of the time.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

All of them will have to spend time in human form in almost every adventure in the type of games I run; They can't have normal human lives in their enhanced forms. That's the point of the disads they're required to take. As to getting "caught with their pants down", they have that problem as often as anyone with a -1/4 IIF, which is kind of the point.

 

IMO, making all Limits disads, priced by how often and how much they actually interfere and saving no other points, might make sense. I don't see a compelling reason for pulling OIHID out and leaving most of the other -1/4 limits in.

 

 

How much time does it take for them to switch forms? And how often do you enforce an IIF limitation?

 

I don't believe in removing all limitations. Just the ones that IMO aren't worth even a -1/4 without a lot of effort from the GM. Such as OIHID, and most of the "Not In" types of limitations such as Not In the light of a red sun.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

I guess in my mind' date=' I have a philosophical problem with a character who's effectively 400-450 pts 95% of the time, and 50-100 pts the other 5% of the time.[/quote']

 

Which is a problem with any limitation that covers a long list of powers. If you're not interested n making it count, you can always forbid it in your games. OIHID is (imo) no more of a problem than a character who takes an IIF Magic Ring or Incantations on some powers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

I and several others have used this limitation to construct otherwise difficult at best concepts that fit into a team. Superman and the Justice League is a perfect example. Any writeup of that team is either going to have Superman be almost double the points of the other characters OR apply an equivalent limitation to his powers (not in red solar radiation or near kryptonite).

 

I posted the character my board userid was named after on another recent thread and I suspect that it might have sparked the idea behind this thread which is cool. I applied most of the point benefits of OIHID on that character to non-combat powers, talents and skill enhancers. Primarily due to have a very small gaming group. If another player wanted to cover some of the bases that I designed that character to handle I could certainly drop 15-20 points in talents and/or powers. Combat wise, a equivalent power level of character could be constructed. I remember seeing Killer Shrike post a character, named appropriately Hype, several months ago that fits that bill quite nicely if I remember correctly.

 

To my mind OIHID means you have NO ACCESS to the powers unless you change to hero ID, so I don't think Superman has OIHID: he still has the powers as CK, he just is shy about using them (although he always finds a way if he needs to).. I always play OIHID as they only have the powers in hero ID, otherwise it is just part of the points you get for Secret ID.

 

Also I would feel uncomfortable about letting non-combat powers benefit from OIHID: you will very very rarely be prevented from using non combat powers no matter what special effects your OIHID might have. Maybe if you can only use your devastating social skills when you are dressed in tights and a cape...

 

Realistically the only (well main) time OIHID is a disadvantage is when you are ambushed in normal ID, and so it is only really the powers that would be useful in thatsituation that I'd normally allow you to buy with OIHID - i.e. stuff you might want to abort to or otherwise defend yourself with.

 

Hugh Neilson and OddHat have it right, I feel.

 

Now who wants 'only in Normal ID'....as a superhero I'm rubbish, but in my normal ID I'm a god....

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Which is a problem with any limitation that covers a long list of powers. If you're not interested n making it count' date=' you can always forbid it in your games. OIHID is (imo) no more of a problem than a character who takes an IIF Magic Ring or Incantations on some powers.[/quote']

 

 

The Incantations usually aren't a problem. They rarely cover virtually the entire character's points and there is an obvious way for the opposition to stop the power.

 

The IIF is more problematic. If it rarely if ever comes into play while covering the majority of a character's points, then I would support the same thing as OIHID. Just like most of the "Not In" limitations.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

How much time does it take for them to switch forms? And how often do you enforce an IIF limitation?

 

I don't believe in removing all limitations. Just the ones that IMO aren't worth even a -1/4 without a lot of effort from the GM. Such as OIHID, and most of the "Not In" types of limitations such as Not In the light of a red sun.

 

Assuming your question is serious, it takes Athenian one phase (she has instant change) and the others one turn. I personally enforce an IIF when it fits the story, which is what most GMs do with limits that are not self-enforcing. Having somone put a bullet or two into a hero in his civillian ID takes no more effort than coming up with a scenario where someone takes Doc IIF's Magic Nose Ring away.

 

Again and always, if you don't like the limit, you don't need to allow it. The alternative you're suggesting does not mesh well with the rest of the game system.

[JmOz]

Re: Oihid

 

Some write ups on the hulk, to represent the drop in INT

 

I hold that there must be a change in forms, I recently made two characters with OIHID as a lark, both gained major stat ups in Hero ID...

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

The IIF is more problematic. If it rarely if ever comes into play while covering the majority of a character's points, then I would support the same thing as OIHID. Just like most of the "Not In" limitations.

 

I kind of agree with rarely comes into play being the problem. That's why I restrict the OIHID limit to characters that can't perform all of the tasks in an adventure in their Heroic IDs (by requiring Distinctive Features and other appropriate disads to be taken).

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Assuming your question is serious, it takes Athenian one phase (she has instant change) and the others one turn. I personally enforce an IIF when it fits the story, which is what most GMs do with limits that are not self-enforcing. Having somone put a bullet or two into a hero in his civillian ID takes no more effort than coming up with a scenario where someone takes Doc IIF's Magic Nose Ring away.

 

Again and always, if you don't like the limit, you don't need to allow it. The alternative you're suggesting does not mesh well with the rest of the game system.

 

 

The ones who take a full turn have a serious limitation. Athenian doesn't. At worst, she can abort into her heroic form even if she gets ambushed. Not worth a -1/4 IMO.

 

I disagree that my alternative doesn't mesh well with the system. At worst, all you have to do is to makeup a new Disad category called Power Disads to handle "-1/8" limitations. This way, they won't interfere with the max points in physical limitations.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

Some write ups on the hulk, to represent the drop in INT

 

I hold that there must be a change in forms, I recently made two characters with OIHID as a lark, both gained major stat ups in Hero ID...

 

I kinda prefer OIHID for characters like the Smart Hulk to Multiform; OIHID feels more balanced in cases where the skill set is the same, and Multiform is free points city if you don't keep a very tight cap on it.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

I kind of agree with rarely comes into play being the problem. That's why I restrict the OIHID limit to characters that can't perform all of the tasks in an adventure in their Heroic IDs (by requiring Distinctive Features and other appropriate disads to be taken).

 

 

I would agree with you except that I would have one more requirement. That it takes at least 2 phases to shift to hero ID.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

The ones who take a full turn have a serious limitation. Athenian doesn't. At worst' date=' she can abort into her heroic form even if she gets ambushed. Not worth a -1/4 IMO.[/quote']

 

Um, can you abort to an attack action in 5th? Instant Change is a specialized form of transformation attack; she still loses the phase, and has none of her Super Stats or defenses while she makes the switch. In Heroic ID she can't access her bank accounts, talk to her "normal" contacts, or interact as a normal person with non-supers, due in large part to the disads I require her to have in Heroic form. It's worth the -1/4, again IMO.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

While we're on the subject of limitations, why is Gestures worth a -1/4 while Restrainable is worth -1/2?

 

Both of them are stopped by Grabs and Entangles. Why is Restrainable worth more?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

At worst' date=' all you have to do is to makeup a new Disad category called Power Disads to handle "-1/8" limitations. This way, they won't interfere with the max points in physical limitations.[/quote']

 

Yes, OK, but you have to promise to come round to all our houses to do the maths.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Um' date=' can you abort to an attack action in 5th? Instant Change is a specialized form of transformation attack; she still loses the phase, and has none of her Super Stats or defenses while she makes the switch. In Heroic ID she can't access her bank accounts, talk to her "normal" contacts, or interact as a normal person with non-supers, due in large part to the disads I require her to have in Heroic form. It's worth the -1/4, again IMO.[/quote']

 

 

On page 236 sidebar, it says Activating any Power which provides the character with more points of defense (such as Density Increase) or some other significant form of protection (such as desolidification)

 

Also, Use of any other maneuver, activation, use of any other power or performing any other action deemed by the GM to be primarily for the purpose of defending or protecting the character.

 

So as long as the heroic form is better defended than the regular form, the Abort is legal.

 

This makes being in normal form nothing more than an inconvenience most of the time.