Oihid

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

On page 236 sidebar, it says Activating any Power which provides the character with more points of defense (such as Density Increase) or some other significant form of protection (such as desolidification)

 

Also, Use of any other maneuver, activation, use of any other power or performing any other action deemed by the GM to be primarily for the purpose of defending or protecting the character.

 

So as long as the heroic form is better defended than the regular form, the Abort is legal.

 

This makes being in normal form nothing more than an inconvenience most of the time.

 

Ah. I don't permit that. Solves the problem.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

On page 236 sidebar, it says Activating any Power which provides the character with more points of defense (such as Density Increase) or some other significant form of protection (such as desolidification)

 

Also, Use of any other maneuver, activation, use of any other power or performing any other action deemed by the GM to be primarily for the purpose of defending or protecting the character.

 

So as long as the heroic form is better defended than the regular form, the Abort is legal.

 

This makes being in normal form nothing more than an inconvenience most of the time.

 

...legal but not much use. It is one thing to abort to a power that has a zero phase start up, but a full phase power - you abort then get hit before it activates. Even one hit in normal ID could be devastating...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

I kinda prefer OIHID for characters like the Smart Hulk to Multiform; OIHID feels more balanced in cases where the skill set is the same' date=' and Multiform is free points city if you don't keep a very tight cap on it.[/quote']

The biggest problem I have with Multiform (just 1 extra form) is the way it penalizes a character with regard to spending experience since the rules say that each form is a distinct character and experience must be spent seperately for each. This just does not fit ALL concepts. Multiform is good though if you just want to get a "real points" look at the super form for power level comparison, for what that's worth. I've seen arguments that the arbritary enforcement of every character starting on the same points when not all players participate equally in the game is just a bit skewed.

 

FYI, Regarding Miracle Man who was mentioned earlier in the thread. He was the British continuation of Captain Marvel/Shazam after DC comics sued over copyright infringement and put the original company that created Cap out of business (I can't remember the companies name).

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

...legal but not much use. It is one thing to abort to a power that has a zero phase start up' date=' but a full phase power - you abort then get hit before it activates. Even one hit in normal ID could be devastating...[/quote']

 

 

From the FAQ:

 

Q: What effect does Extra Time have on a character’s ability to Abort to a power?

 

A: As a default rule, a character can Abort to a power that takes a Full Phase, Delayed Phase, or Extra Segment as normal. He can Abort to a power that takes an Extra Phase, but if so he loses his next two Phases. He cannot Abort to powers that take more Extra Time. The GM can, of course, change this in the interest of common sense, dramatic sense, game balance, or the like.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Ah. I don't permit that. Solves the problem.

 

 

I would probably still require 2 phases. If her normal form dex is high enough or if she has lightning reflexes, she might still go first before a good percentage of people she may confront in that form.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

As with any Limitation, OIHID needs monitoring by the GM. If it's never any limitation in the campaign, then it's not worth any point savings. If the player selects this Limitation, then it's the GMs responsibility to enforce it just as he does for an IIF or other equivalent value Limitation.

 

If a character's defenses are bought OIHID, then occasionally his Secret ID is going to be exposed to danger before he can activate his powers/hero form. He might actually get hurt. Awww. If the character never deactivates his powers except in his armored Fortress of Invulnerability, then the Limitation isn't worth anything. In our campaign virtually every character with OIHID has been attacked in their secret ID at least once. In some cases they had to remain depowered in order to protect their Secret Identity.

 

Why is that so difficult to grasp? Why are we having another pointless discussion attempting to provide lazy or incompetent GMs with a way out of doing their job? If you don't like OIHID in your campaign, don't allow it. But stop trying to rationalize your decision.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

As with any Limitation, OIHID needs monitoring by the GM. If it's never any limitation in the campaign, then it's not worth any point savings. If the player selects this Limitation, then it's the GMs responsibility to enforce it just as he does for an IIF or other equivalent value Limitation.

 

If a character's defenses are bought OIHID, then occasionally his Secret ID is going to be exposed to danger before he can activate his powers/hero form. He might actually get hurt. Awww. If the character never deactivates his powers except in his armored Fortress of Invulnerability, then the Limitation isn't worth anything. In our campaign virtually every character with OIHID has been attacked in their secret ID at least once. In some cases they had to remain depowered in order to protect their Secret Identity.

 

Why is that so difficult to grasp? Why are we having another pointless discussion attempting to provide lazy or incompetent GMs with a way out of doing their job? If you don't like OIHID in your campaign, don't allow it. But stop trying to rationalize your decision.

 

 

I hardly think being attacked "once" in normal ID is worth a -1/4 overall limitation.

 

This is simply a suggested house rule. If you don't like the suggestion, then you don't have to adopt it. Nothing can be simpler.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

I hardly think being attacked "once" in normal ID is worth a -1/4 overall limitation.

 

This is simply a suggested house rule. If you don't like the suggestion, then you don't have to adopt it. Nothing can be simpler.

 

4d6RKA vs poor DCV, no resistant defences....really?

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

4d6RKA vs poor DCV' date=' no resistant defences....really?[/quote']

 

 

Yes really. If you have 20+ adventures and you get attacked once, it's a nuisance unless the attack kills you. And every GM I know would never "fiat death" a character. Most likely result is that the character gets knocked out and captured once. The other 19 times, the character has 50-75 additional points to play with.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

Yes really. If you have 20+ adventures and you get attacked once' date=' it's a nuisance unless the attack kills you. And every GM I know would never "fiat death" a character. Most likely result is that the character gets knocked out and captured once. The other 19 times, the character has 50-75 additional points to play with.[/quote']

 

You could run them over with an Italian car...no, OK, it would be wrong to kill them...but...

 

If I had to start even 1 in 20 fights stunned, bleeding internally and almost unconscious, I'd say that was a sufficient check and balance to the extra points. Far more than a 'nuisance', unless the character has easy access to regeneration or healing.

 

Think of it this way, too: it may not come up often but it is REALLY useful to the GM to have it there now and then. That's worth points too.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

Yes really. If you have 20+ adventures and you get attacked once' date=' it's a nuisance unless the attack kills you. And every GM I know would never "fiat death" a character. Most likely result is that the character gets knocked out and captured once. The other 19 times, the character has 50-75 additional points to play with.[/quote']

 

Gary, seriously, this no different from any other -1/4 limit. If you allow it, you should enforce it. The rule itself is not broken.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

...I think that OIHID will be more of a problem for some characters than others. If it is not any kind of problem, it shouldn't be allowed for that character, but for the chap with the secret ID he can't just call down the lightning whenever he wants to...make sure characters with OIHID have appropriate disdvantages and you'll be fine.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

You could run them over with an Italian car...no, OK, it would be wrong to kill them...but...

 

If I had to start even 1 in 20 fights stunned, bleeding internally and almost unconscious, I'd say that was a sufficient check and balance to the extra points. Far more than a 'nuisance', unless the character has easy access to regeneration or healing.

 

Think of it this way, too: it may not come up often but it is REALLY useful to the GM to have it there now and then. That's worth points too.

 

 

But in exchange for the 1 in 20 fights where I'm out, I have +10 Dex +3 Spd compared to my teammates. Or I have +20 Str and +15 Con. Or any number of things that 50 pts buys. These things are going to help me more in my other 19 fights than I'll lose in the one single fight.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Gary' date=' seriously, this no different from any other -1/4 limit. If you allow it, you should enforce it. The rule itself is not broken.[/quote']

 

 

My experience is that not all -1/4 limitations are created equal. Just like not all -2 limitations are created equal.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

My experience is that not all -1/4 limitations are created equal. Just like not all -2 limitations are created equal.

 

True enough.

 

It's still campaign, character and GM dependant. Personally, I don't think the house rules and GM's calls needed to make OIHID count are that much of a stretch, and forcing people to take this particular limit as a new form of disad just feels kludgy. Much easier to just make it count, or ban it if you don't think it works.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

But in exchange for the 1 in 20 fights where I'm out' date=' I have +10 Dex +3 Spd compared to my teammates. Or I have +20 Str and +15 Con. Or any number of things that 50 pts buys. These things are going to help me more in my other 19 fights than I'll lose in the one single fight.[/quote']

 

 

They've all got IIFs the villain will be nicking after he guts me. Seriously though, so long as the extras are within campaign limits (and your examples probably are not...+3 SPD...) fine.

 

I think getting crippled every couple of months is a problem, you don't. There are other disadvantages too, depending on what powers you don't have access to. if you look at my earlier post you'll see that i mainly only allow OIHID for defensice powers, so you are probably not getting 50 points back anyway.

 

The point is that it is up to the GM to make sure balance is maintained. If there is a character whose powers don't work during the day who only fights crime at night, the GM is not doing her/his job. OIHID is the same. Either don't use it or make it worth 50 points.

 

Cannot be bounced is worth -1/4. I hardly ever bounce attacks, but some people do.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

They've all got IIFs the villain will be nicking after he guts me. Seriously though' date=' so long as the extras are within campaign limits (and your examples probably are not...+3 SPD...) fine.[/quote']

 

 

A character with 50 extra points is probably going to be at campaign max for virtually every category as opposed to the character bought straight.

 

 

I think getting crippled every couple of months is a problem, you don't. There are other disadvantages too, depending on what powers you don't have access to. if you look at my earlier post you'll see that i mainly only allow OIHID for defensice powers, so you are probably not getting 50 points back anyway.

 

IOW, you also see a problem with someone who places OIHID with the majority of his character points.

 

If you're going to be in the habit of crippling characters every couple of months, the player will eventually buy kevlar clothing or combat luck. Then he'll probably be only knocked out every couple of months.

 

 

The point is that it is up to the GM to make sure balance is maintained. If there is a character whose powers don't work during the day who only fights crime at night, the GM is not doing her/his job. OIHID is the same. Either don't use it or make it worth 50 points.

 

Cannot be bounced is worth -1/4. I hardly ever bounce attacks, but some people do.

 

 

As I mentioned previously, not all -1/4 limitations are created equal.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

These things are going to help me more in my other 19 fights than I'll lose in the one single fight.

That's true of any -¼ Limitation, be it IIF or Activation 14- or "Not During Blue Moons." The responsibility for enforcement still lays with the GM. Ideally a good player will help without prompting ("Captain Colossus is still in his Secret ID because he was in the restaurant on a date with Polly Sweetbread, his DNPC girlfriend. So when The Mad Bomber's attack goes off he has only 4 ED. He's gonna get hurt because he's covering her body with his own, and he has to protect his Secret ID."), but if that doesn't happen then the GM must do it.

 

OIHID is not more abusive than any other equally valued Limitation. IMO it is far less abusive than most IIFs, which are often protected by their own intrinsic defenses and basically can't be taken unless the character is unconscious and the opponent has a full Turn to remove the IIF. In one Turn in HERO most characters could build a cathedral. What are the odds of a character who is Stunned or KO'd being out for an entire Turn in order to lose that focus? And how often does that happen in order to make the Limitation worth -¼? One out of 20 fights? One out of 50?

 

Why does Iron Man get the price break but Captain Marvel doesn't rate it?

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

IOW, you also see a problem with someone who places OIHID with the majority of his character points.

 

If you're going to be in the habit of crippling characters every couple of months, the player will eventually buy kevlar clothing or combat luck. Then he'll probably be only knocked out every couple of months.

 

As I mentioned previously, not all -1/4 limitations are created equal.

 

Again, this is very campagin dependant. In my games where character have OIHID, they find themselves dealing with it very regularly, and not just by getting shot while drinking tea.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

snip...

 

Why does Iron Man get the price break but Captain Marvel doesn't rate it?

An even better comparison would be to take a look at 3 characters from the DC Universe: Superman, Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman. It can be argued that all 3 have essentially the same flying brick powerset. Also all 3 could be built as starting characters with essentially the same points to arive at the obvious 123 pecking order of power that exists in that comics universe.

 

 

1. Superman gets to apply 3 different does not work... (-1/4) limitations to nearly all of his powers (red solar radiation, kryptonite and magic).
   
2. Captian Marvel gets the OIHID limitation for All of his powers. Virtually same combat power as Superman except for senses and other vision related effects.
   
3. And Wonder Woman gets no bonus what so ever, and that is OK. She is not normally the toughest brick around but she almost never loses ANY of her abilities unless the Gods intervene. More often however, there are times when she is the toughest Brick in the JLA exactly because of this.
   

HM

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

Yes really. If you have 20+ adventures and you get attacked once' date=' it's a nuisance unless the attack kills you. And every GM I know would never "fiat death" a character. Most likely result is that the character gets knocked out and captured once. The other 19 times, the character has 50-75 additional points to play with.[/quote']

 

Uhm... it should be a _problem_ one in 20. Using the Activation scale... it should _potentially_ be a problem every single adventure.

 

Seriously. Activation, even when it activates, always has the risk of failure. OIHID, even when you transform without getting pasted, should always have a risk. (Seriously. They should almost _always_ have to transform _during_ the scenario)

 

The 1/20 should be how often you get KO'd.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

A better comparison would be to take a look at 3 characters from the DC Universe: Superman, Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman. It can be argued that all 3 basically have the same powerset. All could be built as starting characters with essentially the same points to arive at the obvious pecking order of power that exists in the comics.

 

1. Superman gets to apply 3 different does not work... (-1/4) limitations to nearly all of his powers (red solar radiation, kryptonite and magic).
   
2. Captian Marvel gets the OIHID limitation for All of his powers. Virtually same combat power as Superman except for vision related effects.
   
3. And Wonder Woman gets no bonus what so ever, and that is OK. She is not normally the toughest brick around but she almost never loses her abilities unless the Gods intervene. More often however, there are times when she is the toughest Brick in the JLA exactly because of this.
   

HM

Nicely argued, HM. However, your examples certainly don't prove OIHID is "wrong" in any way. Few people would dispute that Superman is more powerful than Captain Marvel. CM's OIHID doesn't seem to have prevented him from being widely recognized as #2. I know that's not the case you're actually making; but it is the logical correllary.

 

I would question whether Supes actually has three separate -¼ lims. The only one I could see as applicable in a game setting would be the "Not vs. Magic." Since he doesn't live and work on a planet with a red sun, that's a -0.(Otherwise all my characters could take "Requires oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere to utilize powers: -¼". As long as they are in an environment that doesn't outright kill them, such as a vacuum or poison gas, they'd be good to go.)

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

Nicely argued, HM. However, your examples certainly don't prove OIHID is "wrong" in any way. Few people would dispute that Superman is more powerful than Captain Marvel. CM's OIHID doesn't seem to have prevented him from being widely recognized as #2. I know that's not the case you're actually making; but it is the logical correllary.

 

I would question whether Supes actually has three separate -¼ lims. The only one I could see as applicable in a game setting would be the "Not vs. Magic." Since he doesn't live and work on a planet with a red sun, that's a -0.(Otherwise all my characters could take "Requires oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere to utilize powers: -¼". As long as they are in an environment that doesn't outright kill them, such as a vacuum or poison gas, they'd be good to go.)

 

Actually "Affected by Red Sun or Kryptonite" is probably a -1/4, considering the weird and wacky wonders of Kryptonite...

[C++]

Re: Oihid

 

There are other ways a GM can make this one worth it's salt, too. Captain Marvel got hosed earlier this year when Brainwave used Mind Control to make him say "Shazam" and then Black Adam slapped Billy into unconciousness.

 

In the olden days, it wasn't too uncommon for people with the Shazam power to get un-Marvelled by another person calling down the lightning (or Instant Changed for that matter).

 

Let's face it, a GM can basically one-shot your character by changing him or her out of Hero ID. It's almost like having a Fatal Vulnerabilty.

 

And generally speaking, your OIHID (or HIDO as I prefer) character is also going to have disadvantages that ensure that being in Hero ID isn't always a good thing (Secret ID, Distinctive Features, Hunted, Vulnerabilities, Susceptabilities, ect).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

Actually "Affected by Red Sun or Kryptonite" is probably a -1/4' date=' considering the weird and wacky wonders of Kryptonite...[/quote']

Well, in practice it would be only 2 seperate (-1/4) since the magic part usually only applies to his defenses and not much else so we really agree more than disagree on this point.