Combat initiative and the Speed Chart

[Greenstar]

I didn't mean everyone drew different cards. The GM draws, and the phases get shuffled about. You still go on your normal phase, you just aren't sure when it'll come up.

 

I'll take the caveat also that I don't play Supers games; I far prefer Fantasy or Swashbuckling or Modern or Post-Apocalyptic. So no one has over a SPD 5 at the best.

 

as for house rules that are hated, hey, the idea is for everyone to have fun, right? Otherwise, why p;ay? I'd never tyr and force my players to put up with something they totally hated. Sure I'd try and convince them, but if I couldn't, well, toss it!

[Markdoc]

>>>as for house rules that are hated, hey, the idea is for everyone to have fun, right? Otherwise, why p;ay? I'd never tyr and force my players to put up with something they totally hated. Sure I'd try and convince them, but if I couldn't, well, toss it!<<<

 

Exactly! My experience (and it's pretty damn extensive on this subject) has been that players in general like a simple randomised SPD chart, since it reduces the strain on their brains. BUT! Not everyone does. If I had players who hated it, I'd switch back.

 

So far I have introduced 4 groups (as GM) to the system I use. The reaction has been:

 

Group 1 (all experienced Hero system roleplayers, mostly also GMs): Thank GOD! Took to the new system IMMEDIATELY. Of the three I have kept in touch with, only one still games frequently - he still uses the randomised SPD Chart.

 

Group 2 (amostly experienced gamers, all but one new to Hero system). Tried both systems with them in a couple of short games to get them used to the rules. They preferred the random system to the SPD chart, but I think that's just 'co it was easier.

 

Group 3 (all experienced hero players, including one Hero author) One really loved it, one really hated it (the only guy who has, so far: Hi Mike!) and three said they didn't really care. I used it anyway, and after a couple of sessions, never heard any complaints.....

 

Group 4 (Mostly newbies - one has played Hero before) Went straight to the Random system on this one. The newbies could have cared less, the only other Hero gamers (my wife - not Hardcore :-)) commented it was "better than that stupid system where you had to remember what phase it was all the time"

 

Ya can't say "It doesn't work" or "It's worse than the problem it was meant to slove" because I have hundreds of hours of experience and I KNOW it does work. And for me and my players it is better than the standard system.

 

That doesn't mean that everyone should use the same system as I do: It's a house rule and like most of my house rules is a tweak to the game, not a wholesale change.

 

Still, this discussion has had one benefit - I think I'll try switching to numbered cards, instead of a dice. One of the real problems - a little one, but still real - is that using a dice, I can roll several times to get a phase where anyone acts, or I can get a string of phases where everyone acts. Using cards 1-6, when I have a bunch or SPD 4 or less players would ensure exactly the right number of actions for everyone and would save time.

 

the obvious problem is that people could see what has alreday been drawn and calculate what was coming - I'll have to test it to see if that disadvantage outweighs the benefits.

 

cheers, Mark

[Greenstar]

Keep the crads behind the GM screen and turn the discards face-down. Use 12 cards instead of 6 (a regular deck of cards, 1 suit, no King) to make card-counting harder. Discard face-down .

[Primal]

Originally posted by CourtFool

I would still be against this system because with my luck I will draw a bunch of high cards and the SPD 3 grunts would get all the low cards.

 

I take it you use all your powers with the "standard effect" rule?

 

Markdoc's viewpoint resonates a lot more strongly with me than with than Keneton's. I'm a little curious as to where "The Speed Chart was shown to be clearly superior. " comes from.

 

Anyway, what I'd really like is for someone to come up with a more fine-grained speed system.

 

from Derek:

it's due to people using player knowledge vs. character knowledge, and not roleplaying their characters faithfully.

Heheh.. that sort of reminds me of those IBM commercials for Magic Pixie Dust.. sprinkle it on your players and they will roleplay faithfully! I love those commercials!

 

Anyway, I think it's more dramatic to not know that you can get away with maneuvers like Markdoc mentioned. I think it's more heroic for people to try to execute those maneuvers in the face of that uncertainty.

 

As for NPCs holding actions to introduce some unpredictability, I tend to have my hands full enough as GM. If I can pick a system that doesn't require extra work on my part (tracking which of the 15 goblins, 8 Worgs, and 3 Orcs have held actions), but still keeps the players from knowing exactly how long until the enemy can make a strike, I like it.

[Victor]

I was tinkering around with Excel a while back, trying to figure out how to calculate which segments were action phases for a given SPD value. Calculating as opposed to doing a table lookup, or list, or whatever -- yes, I know it's not as CPU efficient, but I had to figure it out for my own sanity's sake.

 

Anyway, I later added a couple variations... one where the action phases for all SPD values are shifted by X segments (not very useful, IMO), and another where all the action phases for each SPD value are shifted by separate values.

 

The latter mode preserves the interval between actions, but changes up the timing relative to other SPD values. You can print out a separate speed chart for each combat, or even for each turn, although I'd think that might be more trouble than it's worth.

 

Here it is, on the off chance someone finds it useful/interesting. Click on the yellow square, and select the menu item you want, to change the mode.

[JamesG]

I've toyed with the idea of abandoning the Speed Chart in favor of each character rolling a die and if they roll their speed or under they get an action. There are two reasons this appealed to me:

1. To introduce an element of randomness to the combat sequencing
   
2. To give slow Speed characters a chance to occasionally have a phase in a segment a higher Speed character does not. For example, in the Speed Chart, all of Speed 3's phases are in segments that Speed 6 also has a phase.[/list=1]
   But I abandoned the plan for a number of reasons. Mainly, it added additional complication and also I saw some of the problems it could entail that Keneton has pointed out.
    
   This thread has me thinking of trying the "12 numbered cards" method. I assume most who use that system use it either like:
   • (GM turns over card #4) OK, everybody with a Speed 4 or less goes this segment.
     or
     
   • (GM turns over card #4) OK, everybody with a phase in segment 4 goes.

Both ways fix my issue 1, but not issue 2 (in fact the first way makes issue one worse, as low Speed characters will never have a phase when higher Speeds don't, barring prior aborts by the high Speed char).

 

One solution I thought of is creating a custom set of 12 cards that say which Speeds go when that card is turned. And then I can set up the cards so that low speeds (other than Speed 1) have at least one card where other "low" Speeds don't go. For example Speed 2 would appear on two cards, the "Everybody goes" card and a card with Speed 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12. That way on one of Speed 2's two segments, no other Speed of 6 or lower would be going.

 

Has anyone experimented with a system like this? I'm not even sure the additional complexity would be worth it.

[Guest Keneton]

Keeping The Faith!

 

The random systems still dont solve my 11 objections. They are still there and no one besides Markdock has even addressed them.

 

If you think that is being religious, well sorry. Ideas are sound when they can face the voice of reason without being crushed.

 

If you dont care about the mechanics then just play it your way. It doesnt bother me one bit.

 

I still dont see this improving play or making the GM's life any easier. The random die roll metod fails to my 11 objections.

 

The cards seem fine but introduce another metagame and invalidates 5 core maneuvers, several powers, and the effective use of vehicles and falling in combat.

 

If you think this is improving the game. . . Go for it. I believe the key to the game is fun, but for me that involves some strategy and a strong system.

[dbsousa]

I use a method that works for us, but you all might not like. In any game with NCM, I do not allow characters to spend more than 10 points on SPD. I have found that everyone takes a SPD of 3, even the characters who buy a 20 DEX. The Speed Chart is effectively non existent. The real mooks have a SPD of 2 and never go before the heroes. The super fast creatures have a SPD of 4 and always go first. Every one else goes in 4, 8, and 12, and since the DEXes tend to go from 13 to 18, anyone can Hurry and potentially beat anyone else to the punch.

[Guest Keneton]

Although limiting, your system makes sense to me!

[JamesG]

Originally posted by Keneton

The random systems still dont solve my 11 objections. They are still there and no one besides Markdock has even addressed them.

 

Agreed that the random roll for each character has many (or most) of the problems your 11 objectives specified. One of reasons I never implemented it.

 

But the basic 12 card system (which is described between "This thread has me thinking" and "Both ways fix my issue 1" in my post above) is pretty similar to Markdoc's system, and he already very effectively refuted your objections, so I saw no reason to repeat that.

 

Looking back at your objections, some of them are reintroduced by my proposed addition to the system (my paragraph starting "One solution"). But some of your objections were a lot more objectionable than others, and I'm not sure the ones my proposal falls prey to are critical by any stretch.

 

The cards seem fine but introduce another metagame and invalidates 5 core maneuvers, several powers, and the effective use of vehicles and falling in combat.

 

What core maneuvers and powers are invalidated? Markdoc has already shown that any maneuvers and powers you've previously given as examples work fine. They may work a little differently, but they are still valid. He also addressed the metagame, vehicles and falling issues to my satisfaction.

[Guest Keneton]

Actually Markdoc originally addressed the issues but then did find that many of my objectsions did still stand and did still apply. Note the second post I made following his that reverified the worth of my concerns. He never refuted my arguments and in fact noted that these concerns were in fact valid. Markdoc chooses the more random sytems in spite of these concerns and I can certainly respect that. To say that my arguments were refuted although is an exaggeration and even Mark would agree to that. Lively debate is not all about right and wrong, but my concerns still stand.

 

That is not to say that Markdoc was not convincing as to some of the merits to his stytem, but definately he would attest that most of my objections do make sense.

 

Now once again we are talking about several different systems here. Most of my objections targeted phase by phase randomness whereas Mark's system involved a turn by turn randomization. Concerning the card sytems mentioned in your post. . .

 

1. Make sure that you are not messing up any abilities that include Takes extra Time (end of next segment).

2. Consider implications with Haymaker.

3. Consider how this will interact with vehicles.

4. Examine how this will effect segmented movemnet for falls.

5. Consider how this will effect stunning, knockout, and the diversification of 0-10 and -11 and beyond.

6. Examine the use of Hurry, Hipshot, and snapshot.

7. Consider how you will mechanically keep track of aborting the next phase in a new turn.

8. Consider when you will handle continous powers.

9. Watch the interaction with Presence attacks.

 

If your system can work these issues out, then by all menas use it! You have shown quite a grasp of mechanics in this thread and by no means is this task insurmountable. I wish you the best and if you find the cure, please advise as even I may try it for a change!

 

On another note, I did have a friend that only allowed up to an 8 spd and so had a condensed Speed Chart. It really worked well. I think this is fun and avoids the 3 speed guy being still "in a dodge!" An example for speed 1-6 say for Fantasy hero might go.

 

SPD 1 Phase 6

SPD 2 Phase 3,6

SPD 3 Phase 2,4,6

SPD 4 Phase 2,3,5,6

SPD 5 Phase 1,2,3,5,6 or 2,3,4,5,6

SPD 6 All 6 Segments

 

Post 6 Recovery!

This is an example for FH that avoids lots of problems and still speeds up play.

 

[Gauntlet]

One thing that everyone should be aware of is that you do not have to go in the phases listed by your speed. If you are a 3 speed and are set to go in 4, 8, & 12 you can always hold your action. So when phase 4 comes you can wait and go in 5 instead, or 6, or 7. I have found this to be great against heroes fighting large number of slower targets. By switching the phases they act in, they can be attacking the characters in EVERY SINGLE PHASE, not just in 4, 8, & 12. This means that the characters have to pay attention to every phase, not just the three their enemies go based on the Speed Chart.

[Old Man]

 

That is some Vecna-level thread necro my man.  Good post though.

[Duke Bushido]

Necromance if we want to.,,,

 

We can bring dead threads to life....

 

Threads arent dead- when they'e twenty years dead-

 

Well that's my favorite kind....

 

 

 

 

[Rich McGee]

38 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Necromance if we want to.,,,

 

We can bring dead threads to life....

 

Threads arent dead- when they'e twenty years dead-

 

Well that's my favorite kind....

 

 

 

 

Got your phone back already, did you?  That wasn't so bad.

 

And hey, you've still got time to tell us what this guy's deal is over on the Supers Image thread.  Good luck, I flopped around for a while before inspiration took hold.  It may help not to look directly at the image while considering, reduces the number of neurons tied up trying to process all those colors.    

Edited December 9, 2023 by Rich McGee

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Rich McGee said:

Got your phone back already, did you?  That wasn't so bad.

 

 

 

Yes and no.

 

Repair shop called; said parts wouldnt be in before next Friday, so I picked up.

 

Can't do much, as it was foinf into the shop because it won't charge.  My daughter has the same phone, so we have worked out a deal where we swap batteries so I have the phone for emergency use.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

Yeah-

 

Replaceabke batteries is one of a very long list of reasons I will use this phone until it is absolutely incompatible with cellular and internet service, period.

 

Is it old?

 

Well, so far as I have been able to tell, it was the first phone with USB-C (again: dont know that as an absolute fact)

 

It was "3-G ready."  You know:  for the day when providers made the change to 3-G. 

 

It has a removable battery, all parts are serviceable, and it has an IR blaster, so when I walk into a bar and a certain news channel is blaring hate and fear all over my socializing, I can fix that.  Same thing for NASCAR.

 

Actually, thise last two are great reasons to keep it even when it won't connect anymore.....

 

  

[GDShore]

Had a cell phone once,,, never again. I had a nice unit, with a three year contract acquired thru the company I worked for, when my contract was up, contacted the carrier and expressed a desire to continue the contract and was assured as long as I paid on time contract would continue. The contract had as part of it, that I only paid for outgoing calls no incoming calls. I Do Not Believe that any phone call should be paid for twice. I received in my last year with them a $900 dollar bill for INCOMING minutes. It seems they changed the parameters 2 years before, and did mot tell me. I saw a lawyer to check my options. There were few, I could dispute the bill but it would cost me more than the bill and still lose. So I paid it and cancelled , at the office I had acquired it 6 years previous. I received another bill, including incoming minutes. I had turned the phone off and removed the battery. I returned to the cell phone office and spoke to the manager, who now told me that in order to cancel, I would have to call the head office between " X and Y' time to cancel. As I already had undergone an attempt to get thru to head office once before and been on hold for 2 hours, I was not about to do that. Before The meet with the manager began I told him I was taping the meet, that I would not be calling, anyone, that I had canceled and if they sent me another bill I would sue. My lawyer would ask for and injunction against them doing business any where in Canada until the suit was settled. I was prepared to go to the supreme court and my lawyer had argued twice before the court and won both, using the injunction once. (she is one very scary lady) I had not been home an hour when I got a phone call on my land line (yes I still have it) with profuse apologies the contract was cancelled and the bill reversed. I hate cell phones, they are an anchor tied around a persons neck. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I have toyed with the idea of randomizing phases etc (such as roll 2d6 and if you get your speed or under you can act, if you fail, you get +1 to your SPD each subsequent roll until you move, etc).  The reason I abandoned all of that is because the way speed works according to the rules is tactics.

 

Having predictable, knowable speed simulates someone's combat ability: you aren't necessarily faster with a higher speed, although often you are.  You're just more skilled, experienced, and capable at combat.  In the same way someone who practices the piano gets so used to where the keys are and what sequence gives what results that they don't even have to look or think about it, or someone who does a job so long and so often that they are much faster than others at the job, speed represents skill and tactical ability.

 

Randomizing that makes the tactics not work any more and reduces speed to swiftness in combat, so I don't care for it.

[Doc Democracy]

21 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Replaceabke batteries is one of a very long list of reasons I will use this phone until it is absolutely incompatible with cellular and internet service, period.

 

2 hours ago, GDShore said:

I hate cell phones, they are an anchor tied around a persons neck. 

 

And I thought I was old.  My phone cost £150 and I pay £10/month for unlimited minutes, texts and social media with 60GB data for everything else.

 

I think modern life demands an internet connection and a mobile phone is the most convenient way to achieve that. 

 

I fully expect the next generation of ROGs to integrate a mobile device in accessing rules and being an interactive character sheet at the gaming table rather than a distraction.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

I think modern life demands an internet connection and a mobile phone is the most convenient way to achieve that. 

 

 

Its amazing how easy it is to get by without the internet.  Do without it a few days and you barely even miss it.

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Its amazing how easy it is to get by without the internet.  Do without it a few days and you barely even miss it.

And yet here you are on the Internet...

[Doc Democracy]

10 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Its amazing how easy it is to get by without the internet.  Do without it a few days and you barely even miss it.

 

In my job it would be entirely impossible. 

 

I also cosume my news online and I play games with my friends online (both console and boardgames).  It means I still game with friends who are in Scotland while I am in London. 

 

I think the internet enhances my life, I read about games and gaming, I download books that I read offline when I am commuting, I check the availability of trains and buses online while on the commute and stay in touch with my team as we work hybridly.

[Rich McGee]

22 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

In my job it would be entirely impossible. 

Ditto, and I'm self-employed with caregiver responsibilities that mean I have no other choice.  I'd be losing hundreds every day I was stuck offline, and the backlog would become unmanageable within a week or two as the stuff in the pipeline advances.

 

It's as unfeasible as saying I could do without electricity.

[GDShore]

I have an internet connection, hence I am able to communicate on this forum. (I upgraded from soup cans and string some time ago, although I sometimes still use drums)