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Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?


OddHat

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Inspired by a post in another thread, and by The Ultimate Brick:

 

Str 43 = The Strength of 100 Men.

Str 43 = 8.5d6 punch

 

8.5d6 = Str 13 Martial Artist with Fast Strike and a Bo Staff.

 

So does the fact that a man with the Strength of 100 Men only hits as hard as a fairly athletic guy with a stick bug anyone else? ;)

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Not really.

 

If you consider that Spider-Man (who can lift 10tons which works out to ~43 STR) can do a couple of things that the Martial Artist with a Bo Staff can't without spending any additional points on MA or weapon familiarities:

 

  1. Toss a car (AOE attack) at an opponent.
  2. Apply the Haymaker manueuver to his punch to do up to 12.5d6 damage.

*The Martial Artist doesn't get any higher bonus for Haymaker than he does for Fast Strike since the Bo Staff does base damage of 4d6. Technically, if you are not paying points for a weapon which your example implies, its maximum damage can only be doubled to 8d6 (not 8.5d6). Also, Fast Strike only adds 2DC's which combined 13 STR and an 8 STR minimum for the weapon only does 7d6 damage. To get a +4DC bonus the MA would need to use an Offensive Strike, Sacrifice Strike or buy 2 additional damage classes with MA's for 8 more points above his base 10 point minimum investment.

 

Seems fair especially with all the complaints of how cheap STR is.

 

HM

 

 

edit: added additional MA info.

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Hyperman has some good points. I'm still confused as to adding damage and what the max of any given damage construct is... but unless you're playing in a superheroic game, the dude with the stick maxes out at 8d6, where the muscle man maxes out at 12.5d6. I'd say that's a difference. If you are in a superheroic game, then it's all good... the guy with the stick is probably a super of some kind anyway.

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

I'm happy with what Champions strength does too. It lets Daredevil and Spiderman have a fight, which they can and often have. It's enough bang for your buck because of the figured stats that so many people complain about (but that look OK to me). And it certainly doesn't put other character types out of business, which it would if it was really under-priced.

 

There are aspects of Champions that look to me to be broken or at least a bit cracked. (Which would be a different thread.) Strength isn't one of them. It's one of the last things I would want to meddle with.

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Only argument to that is that its not just "some guy" with a stick...An 8d6 MA attack represents batman ESQUE training and skill...something near legendary....

 

No, an 8.5d6 attack in the example above represents a 13 STR (you almost certainly know people this strong, and may be one), the basic fast strike maneuver (i.e. a year or less of training with the staff), the Useable With Staves weapons element for martial arts (a year or less of training) and a staff.

 

So it seems reasonable to you that this does as much damage as a punch from a guy with 100 times the strength of a normal man? ;)

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Seems fair especially with all the complaints of how cheap STR is.

 

But then the question isn't "Is it fair, as a game element, considering genre conventions and the fact that STR is arguably underpriced"...

 

The question is "Does it bug you that having the Strength of 100 Men does not allow a charater to hit any harder than a moderately well trained weekend athlete with a stick?"

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Hyperman has some good points. I'm still confused as to adding damage and what the max of any given damage construct is... but unless you're playing in a superheroic game' date=' the dude with the stick maxes out at 8d6, where the muscle man maxes out at 12.5d6. I'd say that's a difference. If you [i']are[/i] in a superheroic game, then it's all good... the guy with the stick is probably a super of some kind anyway.

 

We're not talking about where he maxes out, but you're right about the 1/2 d6 in Heroic games. So, in a piece of well written fiction, not a game, who would you expect to do more damage with a single blow; a man with the Strength of 100 Men, or a guy in fairly good shape with some training and a big stick?

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

The 43 str guy vs. the martial artist with staff comparison doesn't bug me, for a few reasons already mentioned. The doubling levels for mass, lifting power and body determination does. Its very geared, IMO, towards a 4 color game and isn't very granular at all. And the higher you go on the charts, the worse it gets. But honestly, this has been one of the few problems I've had with the system that I've never really been able to find a house rule to fix.

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

The doubling levels for mass' date=' lifting power and body determination does. Its very geared, IMO, towards a 4 color game and isn't very granular at all. And the higher you go on the charts, the worse it gets.[/quote']

 

This is exactly what bugs me, but more in a "That's silly" way than a "That must be fixed now" way. :)

 

I've tried a few house rules to fix the "problem", but I generally just run the system as is. In a way it's related to the Agent problem. If an ordinary person with minimal training and relatively cheap equipment can be as useful as a Super, it makes Supers that much less valuable in the setting.

 

Easiest house rules fixes are to use a "Super Attacks do Double Body" rule (not a perfect fix, but works as a patch), or to draw up a new STR chart (which has problems of its own, considering the system).

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Inspired by a post in another thread, and by The Ultimate Brick:

 

Str 43 = The Strength of 100 Men.

Str 43 = 8.5d6 punch

 

8.5d6 = Str 13 Martial Artist with Fast Strike and a Bo Staff.

 

So does the fact that a man with the Strength of 100 Men only hits as hard as a fairly athletic guy with a stick bug anyone else? ;)

 

 

Yes it did. Although I'll admit it didn't bother me as much as Thor having something like a 60 STR in HERO, that of a beginning brick character.

 

So I re-wrote the strength chart for my own game. So a Strength of a 100 men comes out to be something like a 63 for 12.5 damage. Even so, that's a damage level that a world class superhero Martial Artist (say Captain America) could reach with the right conditions.

 

Such is the nature of a game designed for comic book superheroes.

 

 

I think I need to add my HERO website to my signature...

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

This argument assumes that lifting ability translates directly to hitting power. But even in the real world that's not the case. Olympic weightlifters don't become heavyweight boxers or streetfighters, and there's probably a good reason for that. Impact energy equals velocity times mass. Ben Grimm isn't necessarily swinging much faster as the Thing than he could before he got his superpowers. Somewhat, sure, but is it really 100X faster and thus hitting with 100X the energy?

 

If a 13 STR martial artist with a staff can hit as hard as a brick with a 63 STR, then I suggest the real problem may be in the granularity of extra damage added by weapons rather than in the strength rules themselves. Having actually trained and fought with a staff, I think it only adds +4d6 damage when it's swung like a baseball bat for maximum power (a tactic that's likely to break most staffs). That's not how it's normally used in combat. In combat a staff is used more like two sticks which add a bit of hitting power (perhaps an extra 1d6 or 2d6) but which has an excellent ability to block with the large portion in the middle, and also can add a bit of reach (an extra foot or two of reach makes a tremendous difference in a fight).

 

Plus, of course, it's nice to hit without bruising your fists on the other person's jaw and/or armor. :)

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

So does the fact that a man with the Strength of 100 Men only hits as hard as a fairly athletic guy with a stick bug anyone else? ;)

 

Not me. That "fairly athletic guy" is supposed to have at least ten points in Martial Arts to get its benefits, which is black belt caliber if I'm remembering the suggestions in UMA correctly. Not exactly a weekend athlete, regardless of STR.

 

In addition, the guy with the STR of 100 Men is hitting harder than our black belt. The black belt is just hitting better: placing the blow better, using his STR with the greatest efficiency, and so on. That's why the brick can get the further 4d6 for a Haymaker, because he's doing (untrained) the same type of thing the black belt is. And nothing stops him from getting Martial Arts and a stick, himself, further showing that he's hitting harder.

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Impact energy equals velocity times mass.

Actually velocity has an even bigger role than that. . . .

 

The formula for kinetic energy is:

 

kinetic energy = 1/2 mass times the velocity squared.

 

Thus 2 times the velocity results in 4 times the KE.

 

 

However, there is a relation ship between STR and velocity (or at least between Force and Acceleration).

 

Force = Mass times Acceleration

 

and from this same formula

 

Acceleration = Force divided by Mass

 

Most really strong characters should be capable of great acceleration. And Speedsters would have to be very light or very strong, or have pathetic acceleration (and take forever to get up to speed).

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

But then the question isn't "Is it fair, as a game element, considering genre conventions and the fact that STR is arguably underpriced"...

 

The question is "Does it bug you that having the Strength of 100 Men does not allow a charater to hit any harder than a moderately well trained weekend athlete with a stick?"

 

 

Exactly. People never answer the question being asked... they just give their own personal anecdotes and tangents.

 

Yes... it bugs me a lot that damage doesn't increase exponentially as STR does.

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Honestly and in my darkest heart? Sorta' date=' yeah. You don't get that Authority exploding head action going. :D[/quote']No, but you are getting close. 8d6 = 8 Body average. Normal has 2 PD. Head shot is x2 Body. You can see where this is going...
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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

The 43 str guy vs. the martial artist with staff comparison doesn't bug me' date=' for a few reasons already mentioned. The doubling levels for mass, lifting power and body determination does. Its very geared, IMO, towards a 4 color game and isn't very granular at all. And the higher you go on the charts, the worse it gets. But honestly, this has been one of the few problems I've had with the system that I've never really been able to find a house rule to fix.[/quote']

The exponential nature of Hero is one of the things that IMO makes the game so much better than a game like Rifts.

 

Rifts does not do the doubling power thing, instead they have multiple linear scales for both damage and STR.

 

For example:

 

A character can have a 59 extraordinary strength.

 

Or a character can have a 37 robotic strength.

 

Or a character can have a 23 supernatural strength.

 

Or a character can have a 15 ultra-hyper strength.

 

 

Each of these types of STR uses a different scale and a different damage chart. IMO it is totally pathetic. And, in the end, the Rifts system still does not cover the range that the single exponential scale of Hero covers.

 

Using an exponential scale has more application than "4 color games." In any case where you have a great range of power levels, such a scale is almost necessary (that is why it is used in places like earthquake ratings).

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

I would venture to say that, although the 13 STR martial artist can deal as much damage with his staff as the 43 STR superhuman, chances are that the superhuman has a HA along the lines of Really Whallop Them!: HA +6d6. Something like that. And a lot of Brick Tricks: Explosion for STR, Area Effect for STR, Entangle up to DEF of material used, x2 Knockback for STR... I'd venture to say that once you reach STR 43, you've become bricky enough to have at least one of these, even as a Powered Armor type. I mean, there's some exceptions, like Ironclad, but 60 STR can usually speak for itself.

So, although our quick, accurate MA can do as much damage with a strike, he's still a bit of a one-trick pony. He certainly can't uproot a streetlight and start hitting things with it if somebody takes his staff.

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Yes... it bugs me a lot that damage doesn't increase exponentially as STR does.

 

Looks like another way of phrasing this is that you want a linear increase in STR/Damage.

 

The concept of exponential increase is rather core to HERO and it was one of the first rpgs to use that idea (the first that I encountered). It made superhero gaming by genre convention (i.e. Captain America and Thor on the same team with both being worthwhile) possible.

 

It may be possible to house rule it back, as long as you're interested in only human level games. On a linear scale it becomes very difficult to manage a system that runs the range of power that HERO does now. I do seem to recall a free rpg that tries... http://jagsgame.dyndns.org/ I think.

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

at 8.5 dice, you're averaging 9 BODY a Punch. Subtract the average DEF of a "civilian, pedestrian, average Joe" and they take 6 BODY. Out of 10. So one average punch, not even a wind-up, crushing blow and "Fred from the Office" goes to the hospital. Two punches and our poor victim needs medical attention *stat* or they expire in about a minute.

 

When Spiderman punched Charlie (in the infamous Spiderman vs Wolverine issue of Marvel Presents), he was pushing his Strength (as evidenced by "hitting (who he thought was Wolverine) with everything I got"). Charlie was already seriously wounded by Wolvie earlier, so she's probably carrying a 8 or 9 BODY wound. Spidey unloads 12 dice of Haymaker Damage. Scores an above average result of 14 BODY, and Charlie go *splut*.

 

STR 13 (2.5 D6) + Martial Strike (+2d6) + Bo Staff (+4d6) does do the same amount of damage. This represents (as mentioned) a dedicated Martial Artist, and not some hobbiest with a convenient shaft (of wood).

 

What is the strength of 100 men anyway? Is it 100 2d6 attacks going off seperately but simultaneously? When applying PD, 100 2d6 attacks isn't necessarily any more lethal than one 8d6 attack. (remember with a PD of 3 most of the BODY done by all of these punches and kicks will be pretty much ignored, though the STUN will pile up thoroughly). Can 100 people actually lift 6,400 kg all at once?

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

No, an 8.5d6 attack in the example above represents a 13 STR (you almost certainly know people this strong, and may be one), the basic fast strike maneuver (i.e. a year or less of training with the staff), the Useable With Staves weapons element for martial arts (a year or less of training) and a staff.

 

So it seems reasonable to you that this does as much damage as a punch from a guy with 100 times the strength of a normal man? ;)

 

Having ten points worth of Martial Arts is stated in the rules as being black belt level of proficiency. I would think that about half of all martial artists at less than black belt proficiency don't have any maneuvers. Conversely, anyone who does pick up a maneuver in a year or less of training has a Batmanesque level of obsession, and is far from representative when discussing game mechanics in real world terms.

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Yes... it bugs me a lot that damage doesn't increase exponentially as STR does.
I always thought that damage did increase exponentially. However, it is represented x2 damage = +1d6. Not that I can ever really wrap my head around this idea too well... ;)

 

As to whether it bothers me that STR doesn't translate into damage too well, I don't think so. Me and my buddy can lift the rear end of his small car off the ground. That car probably has the "power of 100 horses." But the car only has that much power for particular applications (trying to pull or push something along the ground). It only has it's weight to keep us from lifting it off the ground. I view STR vs. punching damage as the same type of thing. It's not apples and oranges, but it's not apples and apples, either.

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Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

 

The concept of exponential increase is rather core to HERO and it was one of the first rpgs to use that idea (the first that I encountered). It made superhero gaming by genre convention (i.e. Captain America and Thor on the same team with both being worthwhile) possible.

 

True... but also one of the genre conventions that bug me. I always felt that the Caps, Bats, Green Arrows of the big teams would have been turned into tomato paste somewhere along the lines, just being in proximity to the Thor's and Supes of the genres. I don't think norms should really expect to keep up with true metas. I've always had a tough time swallowing that mix of extreme power ranges.

 

Again... Champs was designed to support this convention... so I deal with it, even though it bugs me. I've always scaled the STR chart down to something closer to the Marvel strength levels. (100 STR hulk can lift 100 Tons) which is still ridiculous, but keeps things a LITTLE more in line.

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