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Focus = Too Great a Price Break?


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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

There's one "acid test" I generally use to determine if something (a power, a limitation, a disadvantage, a perk, whatever) is "too good" for what it costs you:

 

Does it become the "must have" that every character concept finds a way to incorporate it?

 

In my experience, the Focus Limitation does not meet that standard, so it isn't "too good".

 

I've found that to be a very good rule of thumb, not just for Hero but any point based system. I called it the "Ya gotta be an idiot..." test. IE: You'd have to be an idiot not to get this.

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

I've found that to be a very good rule of thumb' date=' not just for Hero but any point based system. I called it the "Ya gotta be an idiot..." test. IE: You'd have to be an idiot not to get this.[/quote']True, but we were discussing HERO, so I framed it in those terms. ;)
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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

There's one "acid test" I generally use to determine if something (a power, a limitation, a disadvantage, a perk, whatever) is "too good" for what it costs you:

 

Does it become the "must have" that every character concept finds a way to incorporate it?

 

In my experience, the Focus Limitation does not meet that standard, so it isn't "too good".

 

For example, in the current campaign I'm in, there are 5 characters (counting mine) and 2 of the 5 have Foci as part of their write-ups: my character (the gadgeteer) and the power armor wearer.

 

For that matter, I can't think of a single Power, Advantage, Limitation, Framework, Disadvantage, or Perk in HERO that is so good everyone automatically finds a reason to have it in their character concept.

 

All Limitations may not be created equal, but none of them stand out to me as "too good" / "broken".

 

This is a good point... and to an extent, I have found the Focus limitation to be "must have" in many instances.

 

Primarily the OIF (power suit, what-have-you). I will readily admit that the OAF is not nearly the issue. I got caught up in that discussion and distracted from my point. Sorry about that.

 

The OIF though. The focus that gives a cost break but is not easily removed... that one is the problem. Again... IMO.

 

To penalize this... in Hugh's words... to attack the guy in the shower... takes just as much GM plot maneuvering as it would take to capture Inherent Power Girl while asleep and drug her... or zap her with a Drain ray... etc.

 

Both are GM created plot elements to deprive the hero of their powers... but one character got a price break and the other didn't. There often is no game play difference to "taking away the power" between an OIF character and a non-focus character. Again... most of the time and in my experience.

 

That is why I consider the main cost break of foci to come from accessibility. Not only is the focus recognized... but a simple way to try and get rid of it is clearly obvious as well. Once it becomes "inaccessible"... i.e. no quick and easy way to get rid of it... then it really loses a great deal of penalty. I would argue it loses almost ALL real penalty in comparison with non-focused powers.

 

So, yes... the main reason I started this thread was that I was seeing the "must have" concept flowing through the basic builds of many characters. Typically the "must have" being an OIF or IIF or OIHD that lumps a large number of powers into a big price break group. This character then gets a greater breadth or depth bought witht he saved points.

 

This is not always because of munchkining... but part of character concept, like a power-armor guy, or suit that enhance mutant powers, or whatever. I'd say most of the time it isn't conscious point mongering by players as much as a concept turns out to take advantage of some of the better cost breaks.

 

Focus is not the only place this happens. (Hand Attacks are another place where you get more than you pay for in comparison to other powers...) it is just that Focus limitations cut across a lot of powers and concepts, and I was just asking if anyone else was seeing an issue like I was. Some yes, some no... as to be expected.

 

So going back to the beginning... I should have entitled the thread...

INACCESSIBLE Focus = Too Great A Price Break?

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

It does take GM manipulation to hit Power Armor Man in the shower or Mutant Girl with a Nullifier Ray that is undeniable truth. I think somr people just see the case of the Nullifier ray to be more heavy handed since you can hire two thugs off the street to sneak and beat the crap out of Power Armor Man, but Power Nullification tech isn't that common in most campaigns. Its similiar to the cost difference in Susceptibilities, IMO. Being Suceptible to Water is worth more points than being susceptible to Uranium. One is more easier to get. The situations that limit Power Armor Man can be arranged much more easily than Mutant Girl (assming she has no limitation on her powers). I have seen campaigns where Power negation tech was so commong that "Mutant powers" did get a limitation bonus, so as I've said if it doesn't work in your particular setting. Change it until it does.

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

. The situations that limit Power Armor Man can be arranged much more easily than Mutant Girl (assming she has no limitation on her powers).

 

In the 'captured and brought the the deathtrap/lair' scenarios, Both OIGGuy and Mutant girl may be captured, but once she breaks off her power-nullifier, its party time. OIF guy is now just..a guy, and hoping he can stay conscious as MutantGirl covers his @$$ and maybe he finds his stuff. Before the game is over. There's nothing wrong with the GM having OIFguy suffer through the rest of the escape powerless, maybe using his normal id stats to fight an agent or two. This is a minor pint, but just one of many ways that the intricacies of the focus limitation can be brought into a game in a variety of ways.

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

...I've never had any PC's rely on a OAf as a primary power/defense. Never. I've not seen any PC's who did so more than a game before the error of their ways caught up to them in a hurry. A side item' date=' somethign ok but not essential, maybe. What's especially adversarial about enforcing focus limitations than having villains make any other plot to harm or discomfort heroes?[/quote']

Never had the archer type in your game? This must be fixed! An archer in every campaign I say! :winkgrin:

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

OK

 

First limitations are not balanced.

 

Take, for instance, activation rolls. If you apply them to a power you roll every phase to see if they work. It is sad if your 14- EB doesn't work, but it is only one shot in 11, so no real biggie. Mind you the limitation works the same for constant powers, and losing one of them one time in 11 could be fatal...say flight, just as you're trying to pull out of a dive, or suddenly your force field goes off and you find you have no resistant defences...

 

So: 1 - let's not pretend this is a science.

 

Second, there's been much reference to the conditional/limited power guidelines. These are guidelines AND they only reflect powers that either do or do not work, and with reference to other limtations, like activation, they don't do that well. The system is erring on the side of caution: you get less for your money if you buy a generic limitation rather than a Hero-hand-crafted version.

 

So: 2 - let's not pretend this is a science (I know I've already done this one but it is a biggie)

 

Finally the focus limitation is not simply a question of how often the power works. Looking at it that way is daft as it utterly fails to take into consideration that a focus is a limitation that can be effected by outside factors, most often the villains. They can attack you when you haven't got it, or they can steal it or whatever: a villain can not control when a power with an activation roll works, or effect the number of charges a power has or changethe increased END cost, but they can darned well effect your focus. Failing to acknowledge that is missing the point of the limitation, which will, of course, make it look like a bargain. 'Internal' limitations can be controlled by the character, 'external' limitations, like focus, are controlled at least in part, by the game world. That's why 'not in intense magnetic fields' is worth a limitation - they hardly ever occur - until the villain finds out that they screw up your main attack....

 

So: 3 - look at limitations in the round, don't 'focus' on just one aspect of them.

 

Pun intended, obviously (and accessably). Which means it only cost me half the points :D

Exactly. How mathematical precision should be expected to override fun and a good mutual storytelling adventure is impossible for me to figure.
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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Exactly. How mathematical precision should be expected to override fun and a good mutual storytelling adventure is impossible for me to figure.

 

There is even more to it than that.

 

The complete loss of a power generally IME causes more of a negative reaction in a player then a simple '50% rule' would indicate. Even one time in ten is enough to make players shy away from the limit.

 

Players hate not being useful. That dislike is often of such strength that the impact of a limit (or disadvantage) need not even begin to approach the math value given in the rules.

 

Point systems are not good scientific formulas; they are better viewed as economic values. What the market accepts and avoids is likely the best indication of balance you have.

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

There's one "acid test" I generally use to determine if something (a power, a limitation, a disadvantage, a perk, whatever) is "too good" for what it costs you:

 

Does it become the "must have" that every character concept finds a way to incorporate it?

 

For that matter, I can't think of a single Power, Advantage, Limitation, Framework, Disadvantage, or Perk in HERO that is so good everyone automatically finds a reason to have it in their character concept.

 

All Limitations may not be created equal, but none of them stand out to me as "too good" / "broken".

 

Armor Piercing. Sometimes MAs go with Find Weakness, but damn few characters go long without an AP attack. Which is why I hate the advantage.

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

I play the Power Armor guy in the game Trebuchet refers to. More often than not, the fact that the armor is an OIF carried in a briefcase imposesits own limits on utility without the GM having to roll anything. Having to run to a closet or empty office in order to don armor while the villains are wreaking havoc is preety limiting if you see the purpose of your team being to protect society and not just win the fight.

 

Often the OIF overlaps with the Secret ID in preventing Cyberknight from donning his armor to prevent something from going down or to keep one of his comrades or DNPCs from being affected. There is much more to the limitation that making the batteries drain or something.

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Armor Piercing. Sometimes MAs go with Find Weakness' date=' but damn few characters go long without an AP attack. Which is why I hate the advantage.[/quote']

 

There is always the option of saying "no" to a player. No GM should run a game where he's forced to contend with things he hates.

 

If on the other hand you're just a player in a game were everyone buys AP, your options are more limited.

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Cyberknight from donning his armor to prevent something from going down or to keep one of his comrades or DNPCs from being affected. There is much more to the limitation that making the batteries drain or something.

 

Ok, I'll bite.

 

Are you saying that if he did not have OIF armor, he would say "screw the secret id, lets not run into the closet to change and lets start the fight now"?

 

if not, then it seems like the OIF isn't really making this any worse than the usual secret ID thing, right?

 

Armor Piercing. Sometimes MAs go with Find Weakness' date=' but damn few characters go long without an AP attack. Which is why I hate the advantage.[/quote']

 

FWIW, this tends to tell me more about your villains than your players. Ap os good only in certain cases, specifically higher end defenses being typical. In other cases, with moderate defenses, damage reductions or not uncommon hardened defenses, straight shots work best.

 

You might be able to "solve" this by varying the defensive values and types a bit more.

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Armor Piercing. Sometimes MAs go with Find Weakness' date=' but damn few characters go long without an AP attack. Which is why I hate the advantage.[/quote']

 

I've never had the experience that Armor Piercing was "must have". Of course, a decent percentage (probably 25%) of our characters are hardened. More dice is usually more effective than Armor Piercing anyway.

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

There's one "acid test" I generally use to determine if something (a power, a limitation, a disadvantage, a perk, whatever) is "too good" for what it costs you:

 

Does it become the "must have" that every character concept finds a way to incorporate it?

 

In my experience, the Focus Limitation does not meet that standard, so it isn't "too good".

 

For example, in the current campaign I'm in, there are 5 characters (counting mine) and 2 of the 5 have Foci as part of their write-ups: my character (the gadgeteer) and the power armor wearer.

 

For that matter, I can't think of a single Power, Advantage, Limitation, Framework, Disadvantage, or Perk in HERO that is so good everyone automatically finds a reason to have it in their character concept.

 

All Limitations may not be created equal, but none of them stand out to me as "too good" / "broken".

 

There are plenty of 'must haves' in the hero system. It's just that most GMs wouldn't allow those abusive power combinations in the first place, so they're not experienced in most games.

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

One thing I wish they'd do about activation rolls is to smooth them out.

 

Make 12- worth -3/4, 13- worth -1/2, and 14- worth -1/4. 15- would be worth nothing unless you add something like Jammed to it. Then we'd stop having it brought up everytime this topic comes up.

 

12- and 13- should not have the same limitation value!

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

It does take GM manipulation to hit Power Armor Man in the shower or Mutant Girl with a Nullifier Ray that is undeniable truth. I think somr people just see the case of the Nullifier ray to be more heavy handed since you can hire two thugs off the street to sneak and beat the crap out of Power Armor Man' date=' but Power Nullification tech isn't that common in most campaigns. Its similiar to the cost difference in Susceptibilities, IMO. Being Suceptible to Water is worth more points than being susceptible to Uranium. One is more easier to get. The situations that limit Power Armor Man can be arranged much more easily than Mutant Girl (assming she has no limitation on her powers). I have seen campaigns where Power negation tech was so commong that "Mutant powers" did get a limitation bonus, so as I've said if it doesn't work in your particular setting. Change it until it does.[/quote']

 

Perhaps the villain could bring a shower with him?

 

I really shouldn't just wander into these discussions half way through....

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

I play the Power Armor guy in the game Trebuchet refers to. More often than not, the fact that the armor is an OIF carried in a briefcase imposesits own limits on utility without the GM having to roll anything. Having to run to a closet or empty office in order to don armor while the villains are wreaking havoc is preety limiting if you see the purpose of your team being to protect society and not just win the fight.

 

Often the OIF overlaps with the Secret ID in preventing Cyberknight from donning his armor to prevent something from going down or to keep one of his comrades or DNPCs from being affected. There is much more to the limitation that making the batteries drain or something.

 

Ever get your fly caught when you're changing into the power armour? Really puts a cramp on your fighting style, let me tell you... :nonp:

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Ok, I'll bite.

 

Are you saying that if he did not have OIF armor, he would say "screw the secret id, lets not run into the closet to change and lets start the fight now"?

 

if not, then it seems like the OIF isn't really making this any worse than the usual secret ID thing, right?

Cyberknight may not be an entirely typical powered armor character. The time and necessity of putting on his armor is further complicated by the fact that he has different Hunteds both as Cyberknight and in his Secret ID as a billionaire industrialist and philanthropist. He's about as public a personality as one can get without actually being in show business or politics. (In fact, our superteam MidGuard most often travels incognito as Dr. Thorssen's entourage; my own character Zl'f actually is his executive assistant and our other MA acts as his bodyguard.)

 

On one occasion, his neo-Nazi cousin shot down the helicopter Dr. Thorssen was taking off in with a Stinger missile and kidnapped him; leaving the armored briefcase with his powered armor behind in the burning wreckage. So Dr. Thorssen was forced to escape from a ship in the middle of the North Sea without any of his powers. Fortunately he hadn't shorted himself on useful skills, including SCUBA diving. :)

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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Charges of End Reserve. A single item' date=' but [i']extremely[/i] abusive.
And in my 15 years as a HERO GM, I've never had to say "No" to that. I've never even had a player suggest it. So where's the "must-have" single-power stuff that only doesn't get seen because a GM has to say "No" to it?
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Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

And in my 15 years as a HERO GM' date=' I've never had to say "No" to that. I've never even had a player [i']suggest[/i] it. So where's the "must-have" single-power stuff that only doesn't get seen because a GM has to say "No" to it?

 

 

That's because either your players haven't thought of it, or they figured they'd never get it by you.

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