Guns vs. Armor

[gewing]

Re: Guns vs. Armor

 

Fortunatley nobody in my unit recieved a hit in the torso so I couldn't tell you how effective the claim is. The plates also don't say at what range they protect. All the casualties we suffered were in the limbs.

 

The basic Interceptor + plates iirc will stop a 7.62x39 at almost point blank. Much less than 100m.

 

IIRC

THe SAPI plates the Specops groups are apparently getting will stop the N11 or whatever it is AP at point blank, for only an extra pound or so.

 

 

The standard plates will, I believe, stop most ball 7.62x51 and 7.62x54 at under 100 meters, and I have seen reference to ability to stop .30-06 AP, but that may be at 200 yards or some such.

 

It is hard to get details.

 

 

Edit

 

I think some kind of removable arm protection should be developed. Probably too heavy for on foot except in "entry" situations, but the ability to wear it in vehicles might save some limbs in ambushes and VBIED attacks.

[sinanju]

Re: Guns vs. Armor

 

This is something I've been considering... to the point where I do feel that pistols are being relegated to a more "real" aspect of last chance weapon. You don't go into a gunfight with a side-arm... you do it with a long gun at least.

 

That's really always been the case. A pistol is a compromise, small enough to carry all the time (or most of the time, anyhow), but mostly it's a last resort weapon. Anyone expecting trouble--even in the old West--would want a rifle handy. Greater range, greater accuracy, greater stopping power.

 

9mm is now the zip gun of the fifties. A threat, but not a big one if you are really prepared.

 

True, and most Dark Champions characters (in costume, anyhow) are going to be prepared. But Joe Smith, Average Citizen, or even John Q. Thug, isn't likely to be wearing body armor even if it's available. Fully automatic weapons exist in the real world, and can even be built in a basement workshop by someone who knows what he's doing...but they're not being used on every street corner.

 

As for how to deal with this, some options I'd suggest:

 

Use Hit Location rules. Sure, the armor is virtually invulnerable--but only if the bullet hits the armor. Or use Activation rolls if you don't want to slow things down with Hit Location.

 

I once instituted a "Hot, Sweaty Armor Rule" in a cyberpunk campaign I was running. Any character who habitually wore armor when he had no reason to expect trouble suffered a DEX penalty because it was uncomfortably hot and sweaty to wear that stuff 24/7. Going into a potential firefight? No problem. Going barhopping? "Hot Sweaty Armor" rule is in effect.

 

Have the campaign authorities make wearing armor illegal unless you're authorized--it's reason enough in itself to get you noticed (if not arrested) by the cops. That should discourage casual use and give a reason why thugs don't wear it unless they're expecting to participate in a firefight.

[Guest voodoo54]

Re: Guns vs. Armor

 

The basic Interceptor + plates iirc will stop a 7.62x39 at almost point blank. Much less than 100m.

 

These are the plates we deployed with in mid '04

 

IIRC

THe SAPI plates the Specops groups are apparently getting will stop the N11 or whatever it is AP at point blank, for only an extra pound or so.

 

These are the plates we recieved about mid tour. They are slightly heavier but thinner so are actually more comfortable

 

The standard plates will, I believe, stop most ball 7.62x51 and 7.62x54 at under 100 meters, and I have seen reference to ability to stop .30-06 AP, but that may be at 200 yards or some such.

 

I concur with you on these details, I believe this is what I have been told but its been awhile.

 

 

 

 

 

I think some kind of removable arm protection should be developed. Probably too heavy for on foot except in "entry" situations, but the ability to wear it in vehicles might save some limbs in ambushes and VBIED attacks.[/

 

Some troops in Iraq have been issued upper arm protection in the form of "sleeves" made of the same material as the basic IBA that connects to the regular IBA. I believe the Marines have developed some IBA shorts they are issueing to gunners in HMMWVs.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Guns vs. Armor

 

Welcome to the Arms Race people!

 

When some of the new body armors become standards, weapons manufacturers will get orders to design weapons that will defeat them. Then when those weapons are standard, newer, better forms of Body Armor will have to be designed to defeat them and so on and so forth.

 

And thats what we call technological advancement.

[gewing]

Re: Guns vs. Armor

 

Welcome to the Arms Race people!

 

When some of the new body armors become standards, weapons manufacturers will get orders to design weapons that will defeat them. Then when those weapons are standard, newer, better forms of Body Armor will have to be designed to defeat them and so on and so forth.

 

And thats what we call technological advancement.

 

 

From what I have heard, when they gave up on the OICW as it was originally being developed (5.56 smg + 20mm grenade launcher) due to inability to get the weight as low as they wanted it, there was a "secondary" consideration. I have read rumor level stuff that there was alot of concern that the enhanced fragmentation effects of the 20mm were not considered adequate anymore.

 

Originally they were going to use the same 25mm grenade for the individual and crew served weapons. It turned out that at teh velocity of about 790fps the 25mm kicked WAY too hard (more than a .50 caliber rifle) and so they dropped the diameter to 20mm. AFAIK this used new explosives and enhanced (tungsten?) fragmentation to allow it to penetrate the PASGT helmets and body armor at a reasonable distance.

 

The new body armors threatened to make that level of penetration inadequate, so it was another advantage of going to a reduced velocity 25mm grenade. The maximum effective range will almost certainly be shorter, but the 1000 meter range was possibly more than strictly neccessary anyway.

 

 

I know that there are developmental (have seen some field use) fragmentation and shaped charge grenades for the 12 ga shotgun.

 

I foresee the US actually FIELDING(in significant quantities), in addition to type classifying, a rifle caliber armor piercing round.

 

THis is one of the roles where the 6.8 or 6.5 grendel would have greater capability.

 

Another possiblity is probably very expensive, but...

 

Given the levels of digitization that the military is planning, I wouldn't be too surprised if they increase the amount of fire support (light artillery, etc) for our troops.

 

While MOST enemies will not have the level of body armor that will make rifles require hits to the head, pelvis, etc, some will be assumed to have them.

 

If the xm25 grenade launcher with its laser range finder is issued 2/squad, this alone will give greater accurate firepower(longer range and better accuracy than the 40mm gl)

Given the commonality of GPS now, and the relative cheapness of laser rangefinders, it is possible that the battalion level mortars will get a lot more targets.

 

I understand the Army has bought another large number of Carl Gustav M3(?) 84mm recoilless rifles, for troops other than the rangers.

 

THis should also increase the ability to engage targets too tough for basic rifle fire.

 

One of the problems, as always when infantry are involved, is weight.

 

I think the Marine corps is on to something with the Dragon Fire testbed, functionaly a remote controlled, autoloading 120mm mortar. If it were mounted either on the back of or towed behind a HMMVW or some such, it could have mobility to keep up with the troops, and if bought in enough numbers, they could be placed in direct support of each Company, for instance.

 

Or the marine corps "SPIKE" mini missile could be used for many missions. although they estimate the missiles (4.4 lbs each) would cost about $4k, I wonder if a non-guided version could be made with adequate accuracy.

 

 

Why YES I do believe in "Peace through superior (accurate) firepower", why do you ask?

[Barton]

Re: Guns vs. Armor

 

GEWING:

I find your last post very interesting, and giving what I have too have heard in rumors it makes sense. The US is increasing the firepower at the solider level dramatically.

 

What this means is new "toys" for DC games.

 

Peace thru firepower... my favorite is "if you want peace prepare for war"; still true over 2000 years after the phrase was coined.

[loraxxx]

Re: Guns vs. Armor

 

uuuuuhhh, i think people are missing the point--this is CHAMPIONS, not REALITY....

 

players should be able to beat the crap out of everybody except those people who are SUPPOSED to give them a challenge, i.e. other characters of their point level, or higher....

 

and if guns as written aren't effective against your characters, start lobbing flash-bang or gas grenades--start dropping buildings on the heroes if you have too--the idea is to 1) play a scenario WITHIN GENRE CONVENTIONS; 2)for EVERYONE--GM included--to have a good time....

 

if your characters start bringing in the latest hi-tech stuff, so should you villans--that's what MERCS and THUGS are for--dip 'em in NOMEX, and send them out to soak up the lead while the real villain runs away to fight another day....WHATEVER!!--if your characters can justify it for themselves then it should exist for everyone to use....

 

not that anyone has access to it--when RAMROD, THE KILLER PIMP has access to body armor things are pretty out of whack--but the HIRED KILLERS the mafia calls in to deal with your players should have their own superior methods of avoiding damage, or dishing it out to the PC's--otherwise, what's the point?

[Storn]

Re: Guns vs. Armor

 

loraax, no, this is not champions, this is DARK champions... and a certainly level of realism is expected.... much more than champions. Spliting a very important hair.

 

Having said that.

 

Let me go back to John Woo guy, 2 high powered brownings and expect to work in a campaign with lots of Mark III class body armor (cyberpunk, for example).... he is built, like others said, on Combat Luck.... buy chow yun also had FIND WEAKNESS with those Brownings. Expensive in pts, but can make pistolero pro stand alongside Chain Gun Charlie and not feel TOTALLY outclassed.

[loraxxx]

Re: Guns vs. Armor

 

loraax' date=' no, this is not champions, this is DARK champions... and a certainly level of realism is expected.... much more than champions. Spliting a very important hair.[/quote']

 

possibly, but my point still applies--ALL hero system is power/stat effects and point cost--the REALISM of which is debateable, and debateable endlessly....

 

but let's be honest--people aren't playing REAL LIFE--because in real life most of us don't get to be the hero. DARK CHAMPIONS is still a GENRE game and most folks are playing to a set of genre conventions, same as with regular CHAMPS....

 

consensus defines reality for any group interaction--so, as long as the group and GM are satisfied with how things playout--as long as people get to play and be the heroes they wish to play, regardless of the outcome--why worry so much about how REAL the system mechanics are? we're playing ACTION HERO cops, not ACTUAL REAL LIFE cops--and we want to do the things we see or read about, not the things that actually happen....

 

so with that in mind, it only serves for HERO to be a little lenient in terms of dealing out damage--if for no other reason than to keep characters alive long enough to have fun....

[Eosin]

Re: Guns vs. Armor

 

consensus defines reality for any group interaction--so' date=' as long as the group and GM are satisfied with how things playout[/quote']

 

I think you have the answer right there ---- Many of us like to import all the modern sophisticated gear and keep it as realistic as possible while playing a cinematic game. Obviously, WE like these kind of things else we wouldn't be talking about them. Our group consensus (and all of the posters here but you apparently) indicates that these things do matter, at least to us.

 

Trying to fit your definition of what is and what is not relevant to game play/enjoyment onto other gamers with obvious differences in taste is lose/lose proposition.

[Fox1]

Re: Guns vs. Armor

 

Let me go back to John Woo guy' date=' 2 high powered brownings and expect to work in a campaign with lots of Mark III class body armor (cyberpunk, for example).... [/quote']

 

I've watched some John Woo moves, never saw Class III body in them although I haven't seen that many.

 

Nor do I think that one would be carring a handgun and ammo first designed in 1935 for use in a cyberpunk campaign. You'd likely be using something far better- say blended metal bullets, nanometal gunpowder replacement, and advancement recoil management.

 

Can we say Class III = paper. Yes we can.

[loraxxx]

Re: Guns vs. Armor

 

Trying to fit your definition of what is and what is not relevant to game play/enjoyment onto other gamers with obvious differences in taste is lose/lose proposition.

 

actually, i was referring to the EDSEL's original post about how effective DC/RL body armor is and how that may negatively effect play in DC, since guns don't seem to be able to hurt people

 

at first, i was trying to make the point that you can still play a dangerous action/adventure scenario without spending a lot of time tooth-gnashing about the effectiveness of body armor, and offered some admittedly off-the-cuff/over-the-top suggestions as to how he could do so....

 

then i responded to STORNS's post about how important a sense of 'realism' is to players of DC, (which he made, probably in response to my own somewhat outlandish suggestions) and how he felt it was important that gameplay try to reflect how things actually are--to which i responded with the idea that striving for too much realism in an attempt to recreate, which is actually cinematically inspired, genre-fiction storytelling, may put one across purposes from playing hero, and having fun--just a caution, not an admonition....

 

i'm wasn't trying to tell anybody how to run their campaigns, just suggesting that time spent being creative about the use of system mechanics and tactics, or the placement and design of NPC villains would be a more effective way to deal the body armor issue, than time spent researching RL body armor statistics--if i came off as trying to tell people how to run their games, that was not my intent--i was simply offering my suggestions, which is why i assumed the question was posed here in the first place.....

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Guns vs. Armor

 

Buy Targeting PSL's and shoot enemies in the head. Problem solved.

 

Or if you don't want to kill them, shoot them in the legs...