Collimating/Reflex Sight

[Edsel]

I have a few questions about these types of sights.

 

I believe that the collimating/reflex sight is also called a "holographic" sight by some companies. Is that correct, or is that another type of sight?

 

Having never used one just how effective they really are. Dark Champions says that they grant a +2 OCV and +10 RMod to the gun they are fitted to and they give +2 PER vs. darkness, but they are only good out to 125", beyond that no bonus. Is this realistic?

 

It seems like this will pretty much negate range from being a factor in combat. Most of our DC combats take place in less than half of that 125" distance.

[Fox1]

Re: Collimating/Reflex Sight

 

Having never used one just how effective they really are. Dark Champions says that they grant a +2 OCV and +10 RMod to the gun they are fitted to and they give +2 PER vs. darkness' date=' but they are only good out to 125", beyond that no bonus. Is this realistic?[/quote']

 

Heck NO!

 

Long was smoking some good crack the day he wrote down those stats. The wise person would ignore ALL the weapon stats in DC, I'd detail the ones that are actually spaced (some do work) but it would be a long list and I have no wish to waste the time. I will say that laser sights and scopes are also badly whacked.

 

 

It is worth a OCV bonus due to removing the need to align the sights. It also allows one to pick up a target quickly and has a certain advantage in not tunnel visioning you while you do it.

 

Nor should it give PER bonuses vs. darkness, it only allows you to see the gunsight easily in darkness, something of a different matter.

 

 

Here's how I handle it:

 

+1 OCV, +1 Lightning Reflexes only to bring weapon to bear (and likely fire).

 

 

Anything more is highly unrealistic.

 

 

Yes, I do think reflex sight and holographic sight can be used interchangeability.

[greymankle]

Re: Collimating/Reflex Sight

 

When I'm think of a holographic sight I'm thinking of laser sight that doesn't beam out to the target. The rear sight is replaced by a inch and a half veiw finder that creates a floating red dot. The dot only appears when you are looking down the barrel at the right angle. It has more benifit than a regular laser since it's very good at long range. No one can see a little red dot on a target at 300m but this floating dot is right there. Plus for a sniper there is no dot on the target to give it away.

 

As for OCV benifits? I am not game mechanic guru, anyone has read my posts know that. But to me the benefit granted by the sight should figure into how much better the shooter becomes with the sight. I have a real world analoy for you. When we were qualifying at the range to come over here, one of the guys had a sight like this on his 16, he buys every neat toy for his weapon. He shot expert 39/40. He's a high speed, good shot anyway. Another soldier shot 15/40. She is not a good shot. On her second go around she borrowed this sight. After she re-zero'd she shot a 32/40. That's a big improvement in my eyes. We qualify out to 300m so I wouldn't discount these sights. They work.

 

The collimating sight is just a brightened-up front sight post. You can get the same effect breaking open a glow stick and wiping it on the front sight. That type of sight I have never used. Never needed it. I don't do CQM. But I can see it only helping bring the weapon to bear quickly. If you can't shoot long distance, having a glowing front post wont help.

 

I'll talk to the guy who bought the holo-sight. I think he got it form Brigade Quartermaster. If I get link I'll edit and post it.

 

-Peace

[Fox1]

Re: Collimating/Reflex Sight

 

Another soldier shot 15/40. She is not a good shot. On her second go around she borrowed this sight. After she re-zero'd she shot a 32/40. That's a big improvement in my eyes. We qualify out to 300m so I wouldn't discount these sights. They work.

 

I'd put that down to someone who doesn't know how to get and hold a good sight picture in the first place.

 

I.e., she never really had WF in the first place. So assuming the sight corrected that problem, she lost the first -3 OCV for lack of WF and gained +1 OCV (using my numbers). There's your huge difference.

[greymankle]

Re: Collimating/Reflex Sight

 

I'd put that down to someone who doesn't know how to get and hold a good sight picture in the first place.

 

I.e., she never really had WF in the first place. So assuming the sight corrected that problem, she lost the first -3 OCV for lack of WF and gained +1 OCV (using my numbers). There's your huge difference.

 

I agree on the sight picture comment. but if the artificial sight solved the problem it has to have some merit. How much merit for someone who can already shoot? can't say.

 

Like I said, I'm not a mechanics guy. I just wanted to put in my thoughts on what a holographic sight was. Now that I'm thinking about it, the holographic sight would only really work in rifle long distance work. Usually in CQM you don't have time to use the sights, where having the collimiating sight would help more in the CQM situations.

 

-Peace

[Fox1]

Re: Collimating/Reflex Sight

 

I agree on the sight picture comment. but if the artificial sight solved the problem it has to have some merit. How much merit for someone who can already shoot? can't say.

 

Oh it certainly has merit, just nothing like the merit DC gives it.

 

I think the +1 OCV, +1 lightning reflexes is a good match.

 

I wouldn't worry about its effect on characters with little or no skill as I don't think it would come up in a game- but you could buy it as WF: Specific Firearm if it did.

 

 

 

Like I said, I'm not a mechanics guy. I just wanted to put in my thoughts on what a holographic sight was. Now that I'm thinking about it, the holographic sight would only really work in rifle long distance work. Usually in CQM you don't have time to use the sights, where having the collimiating sight would help more in the CQM situations.

 

Well...

 

Actually the Reflex sight was meant for short-range work and is functional in CQB.

 

That's why it's an open ghost ring design without any magnification. The first is to avoid blocking your view of the area, the second is to prevent the near tunnel vision result of using magnification.

 

As a sight picture isn't needed, the final result should be quick and rapid aimed fire on a target assuming the weapon was carried in near firing position.

 

It's advantages over open sights of course carries over to long range work, but it would be better to have a scope for that.

 

 

If one wanted a pecking order it would be thus:

 

Laser Sight: CQB

+1 OCV, +2 Lightning Reflexes. Max Range 16"

 

Reflex Sight: Short Range

+1 OCV, +1 Lightning Reflexes if weapon ready.

 

Standard Scope (2-4x): Medium Range

+1 OCV, +2 RMod, Set/Brace to use

 

Hi-Power Ranging Scope (8-10x): Long Range

+1 OCV, +5 RMod, Set/Brace to use.

 

 

The advantages over different ranges is why of course the SOPMOD Kit includes all the above sights (except hi-powered scope, not useful on the M4).

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Collimating/Reflex Sight

 

Shadowrun had an Ultrasound sighting system, whats the best way of modeling that for DC?

 

for that matter, we're assuming laser sights are using visual light lasers, at higher tech levels, could you use IR or UV band lasers if you had the right vision enhancement gear to go with it?

[greymankle]

Re: Collimating/Reflex Sight

 

I think I'll bow gracefully out of this conversation. Once you start bringing SOPMOD into the mix you're out of my level of expertise. Hey Fox1 you seem to be pretty up on firearm conversions. I peeped your website but didn't find what I was looking for.

 

Do you remeber that bolt action single shot .50 cal sniper rifle? I want to mod it up to a 6-10 shot clip. Do you have this converted somewhere with the AP/RP listed? I'd love to see a link.

 

-Peace

[greymankle]

Re: Collimating/Reflex Sight

 

oops nevermind just found it. Barret M82A1. That's a great chart you've got there. I'd rep you if somebody told me how.

 

-Peace

[gewing]

Re: Collimating/Reflex Sight

 

Shadowrun had an Ultrasound sighting system, whats the best way of modeling that for DC?

 

for that matter, we're assuming laser sights are using visual light lasers, at higher tech levels, could you use IR or UV band lasers if you had the right vision enhancement gear to go with it?

 

they already do make IR lasers for use with night vision gear.

 

I think some lasers should have more than 16" range.

 

I also think something like +2 ocv for the laser works. ymmv.

 

One day I may buy Lasergrips for one of my pistols. $$$$

[Sociotard]

Re: Collimating/Reflex Sight

 

As for OCV benifits? I am not game mechanic guru' date=' anyone has read my posts know that. But to me the benefit granted by the sight should figure into how much better the shooter becomes with the sight. I have a real world analoy for you. When we were qualifying at the range to come over here, one of the guys had a sight like this on his 16, he buys every neat toy for his weapon. He shot expert 39/40. He's a high speed, good shot anyway. Another soldier shot 15/40. She is not a good shot. On her second go around she borrowed this sight. After she re-zero'd she shot a 32/40. That's a big improvement in my eyes. We qualify out to 300m so I wouldn't discount these sights. They work.[/quote'] You could also, possibly, chalk this up to the dumbo's feather effect. By this I mean, the sight gave her more confidence, blah blah.

 

It could be true.

[Fox1]

Re: Collimating/Reflex Sight

 

Shadowrun had an Ultrasound sighting system' date=' whats the best way of modeling that for DC??[/quote']

 

Shadowrun basically would have broke that down into two elements.

 

The Ultrasound Sighting system itself would be Active Sonar (assuming it sent out a sound pulse and mapped from there, if it's passive you can make the sense passive). That's given in the book, about the only change is that I might make is to limit it to a 60 degree arc.

 

The second element would be the Smartlink that it would tie into.

 

Smartlinks are cyberwear, so how you do that limit wise can vary by setting, but the modifier I used is +2 OCV, +2 Lightning Reflexes.

 

If the Smartlink has a range finder as part of it (as some do) and the ultrasonic sight does as well, give it +2 to +4 RMod and the Enhanced Sense: Sense Range (5 point Enhanced Visual Sense with Discriminatory: 10 active points).

 

 

You may have to play with PER bonuses and Telescopic PER modifiers to taste. Generally ultrasound systems should have shorter ranges than visual under normal conditions. But the whole idea of them is that they are used in abnormal conditions (horrid weather perhaps, heavy smoke, complete darkness, etc).

 

 

 

for that matter, we're assuming laser sights are using visual light lasers, at higher tech levels, could you use IR or UV band lasers if you had the right vision enhancement gear to go with it?

 

Yes.

 

Build them normally, the IR/UV part is a +0 Limit as it has it's ups and downs.

 

I limit mine to 16" as seeing that tiny dot beyond 100 feet seems unlikely to me under combat conditions. It would in the real world vary greatly depending upon lighting conditions and the color of the 'painted' target.