Mental Powers

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I can see how one could look at it very literally and come up with class of minds as being an option. I even think that it is. Most of the time they can just be dispensed with and do as you suggest and work purely on SFX: Most minds are effected only a few rare ones are not.

 

I merely point out that the adder system is one option and the modifer rules are another for effecting minds different from the power user.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Ummm...

 

Did I miss the post that pointed out that Classes of Minds is *one* option presented in 5e and 5er? You know the other one that says you can attack "use a mental power on" a character outside of your class for a -3 ECV and -10 (-5 Ego Attack) on the effect roll.

 

I use that rule because it makes too much sense not too. That way I can have my minds classes and still mind thwap all I want to who ever I want.

 

Hawksmoor

 

That approach makes more sense to me. It also makes some sense to set the cost of adding a class of minds to a single mental power at 10 points, since this likely isn't too far off PSL's and extra dice "only for X class". Maybe the cost should be +10 for adding one class, and +20 for being able to affect all classes, since the PSL and extra dice cost likely wouldn't double for a second class of minds.

 

[Not suire where it's presented in 5e/5er though).

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I'd like to stress, I have no problem with the idea of a "Class of Minds Framework" - just not the Class of Minds as presented.

 

Good point, Hawksmoor, too.

 

PS - I do think that a CoM Framework does address the prior problem of "what are the limits of minds I can reach?" - but I would also add that the current CoM does not come across as a reusable Framework (even though a half-witted GM can easily adapt it)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Let's take that Pirates game and add in Magic, so that mental powers become viable, at least. Presumably, the limitation for "Requires large quantities of water" for my Summon Water Elementals spell will be set at a pretty low level, since the ocean will normally be in the area.

 

However, if I change "Pirates" to "Lawrence of Arabia", and set the campaign in a desert, the limitation should be considerably greater for that game. A globetrotting campaign will set the limitation somewhere between these two extremes.

 

Yet the system, removes this judgement for Mental Powers that only affect certain classes of minds. Affecting, say, "Only Aliens" is of equal value whether we're polaying a Supers game where we encounter Alien-Class minds (say) every 20 adventures or less carries the same value as in a Sci Fi campaign that focuses on War Against the Aliens. To me, the value of that limitation varies considerably bgetween games, and so the value should be set individually fo0r the games, not incorporated as a default in the (supposedly SFX neutral) game rules.

 

Did you completely miss the point of my last post?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I'd suggest we did fine without Class of Minds for many years prior to 5th.

 

PS - please read that to mean - so what is the problem statement that this addresses?

 

It addresses the issue of affecting the machine class of mind with default mental powers. The topic of cyberkinesis was never fully addressed by 4th edition, and in 5th it is, using the Classes of Mind rule.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I'm not sure what 5ER says, as I only have 5E, but the second sentance states what the "basic" classes of minds are, and then states that the GM may add to this, or alter them as he sees fit. That sentance alone should solve everyone's problem. Right there in the rules, by the book and default settings of classes of mind, just say that there is a "sentient" class that everyone belongs to.

 

One thing I'd like to add though: How powerful would a mentalist type be if there were no classes of minds, and the mentalist only wanted to be able to affect a specific type of mind, such a only humans? Obviously the Limitation would depend upon the campaign setting, but even in a normal ordinary world without aliens or demons, not being able to affect machines or animals is a big enough Limitation that suddenly Mentalists come uber cheep.

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I'm not sure what 5ER says, as I only have 5E, but the second sentance states what the "basic" classes of minds are, and then states that the GM may add to this, or alter them as he sees fit. That sentance alone should solve everyone's problem. Right there in the rules, by the book and default settings of classes of mind, just say that there is a "sentient" class that everyone belongs to.

 

One thing I'd like to add though: How powerful would a mentalist type be if there were no classes of minds, and the mentalist only wanted to be able to affect a specific type of mind, such a only humans? Obviously the Limitation would depend upon the campaign setting, but even in a normal ordinary world without aliens or demons, not being able to affect machines or animals is a big enough Limitation that suddenly Mentalists come uber cheep.

 

 

I think you're making excellent points in this thread. Rep to you.

 

However I also think you're talking to brick walls on this issue. Some people hate some things, logic doesn't enter into it.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I think you're making excellent points in this thread. Rep to you.

 

However I also think you're talking to brick walls on this issue. Some people hate some things, logic doesn't enter into it.

 

Hmmm... good point.

 

I never thought about it that way before....

[Agent X]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I think you're making excellent points in this thread. Rep to you.

 

However I also think you're talking to brick walls on this issue. Some people hate some things, logic doesn't enter into it.

I'm not sure he wants this kind of support for his position.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I'm not sure what 5ER says' date=' as I only have 5E, but the second sentance states what the "basic" classes of minds are, and then states that the GM may add to this, or alter them as he sees fit. That sentance alone should solve everyone's problem. Right there in the rules, by the book and default settings of classes of mind, just say that there is a "sentient" class that everyone belongs to.[/quote']

 

The game also states GM's may alter the costs of powers, advantages, limitations and what have you as he sees fit. By stating the four classes of minds in the core rules, these become enshrined as "official", with any deviation from them being a house rule. I do not believe the "classes of mind" rules belong in the core rules at all. I certainly don't believe those four belong in the core rules.

 

One thing I'd like to add though: How powerful would a mentalist type be if there were no classes of minds' date=' and the mentalist only wanted to be able to affect a specific type of mind, such a only humans? Obviously the Limitation would depend upon the campaign setting, but even in a normal ordinary world without aliens or demons, not being able to affect machines or animals is a big enough Limitation that suddenly Mentalists come uber cheep.[/quote']

 

To clarify, I have no problem with providing for a special rule dealing with mental powers which affect only machines with no Ego score, but possessing an INT score in some fashion. In my view, this should stack out overall as a limitation, and is best considered a completely separate power (cyberpaths aren't commonly telepaths and vice versa, so a huge discount to link the two isn't needed).

 

However, "classes of minds" are not needed to incorporate a mechanic for mental powers which affect non-sentient computers rather than sentient beings. The "alien class" of minds, and the "animal" class of minds were hardly necessary to allow for a cyberpath.

 

I would have mental powers affect, by default, only characters with Ego scores. That would include animals, AI's, Firewing and Mechanon, and exclude computers. The "mechanical mental powers" rules would then apply to create characters with mental powers that affect computers.

 

If a mentalist wants to define his powers as "only affecting humans", a limitation appropriate to the campaign world would be assessed. In a Superspies game, this might be -1/4. In a Call of Cthulhu game, it might be -1 or even greater.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I have always felt that "human class minds" applies to the character's own species. If an alien has a "human class mind" default then his ability only effects his race.

 

Alien, is any sentient biological mind that is not of the player's race.

 

Animal is non-sentient biological life.

 

And Mechanical, is well mechanical.

 

Thus if you want to effect your own species, you must buy no adder. If you want to effect other species you have to buy the appropriate adder. I actually like this idea. Alien/animal minds (and by that I mean minds other than those of your own species) may not think the same way you would, or be effected by your abilities the same way your species would be.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

It addresses the issue of affecting the machine class of mind with default mental powers. The topic of cyberkinesis was never fully addressed by 4th edition' date=' and in 5th it is, using the Classes of Mind rule.[/quote']

Good point, thanks. Then it's a 24-ton weight to kill the fly, as I'd echo Hugh's sentiments as to the construction if this was a primary driver. I don't see a "Classes of Mind" framework as a natural result of addressing that, I would see more the explanation of the limitations and advantages related to the types of targets that Mental Powers operate against. Or a Class of Minds framework that was more indicative as to the rationale of grouping so that people could readily understand the rules are presuming some things (I would have to think, anyway) about the presence of aliens and animals, that it's not some sort of bizarre deviation from HERO's normal balance and utility logic. People coming from other systems, especially, might not get this.

 

However, while I still agree with Hugh re the central issue of enshrining this typology, at least without really explicating the background framework, I grant your point probably more strongly than he regarding the "alter as you see fit" thing as the placement of that sentence is rather intentional as opposed to simply being the blanket caveat.

[Agent X]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I have always felt that "human class minds" applies to the character's own species. If an alien has a "human class mind" default then his ability only effects his race.

 

Alien, is any sentient biological mind that is not of the player's race.

 

Animal is non-sentient biological life.

 

And Mechanical, is well mechanical.

 

Thus if you want to effect your own species, you must buy no adder. If you want to effect other species you have to buy the appropriate adder. I actually like this idea. Alien/animal minds (and by that I mean minds other than those of your own species) may not think the same way you would, or be effected by your abilities the same way your species would be.

I didn't read Alien that way. I'll check the book and get back to you on this.

 

Edit: The books I have are silent on the matter. I don't have the revised 5th edition though.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Now look. This has gone far enough! Everyone look up here at the chalk board!

 

There is nothing -- and I mean nothing -- wrong with having a separate class of minds for each species in the game.

 

Oftentimes, playing it this way makes dramatic sense, as WELL as simulationist sense. The only time it becomes an issue is from the gamist perspective, which is mighty low on my list of priorities, I don't mind saying.

 

Does that mean Mr. Mentos might not be too effective against the archvillain? Maybe. Well, life is tough. -I- can't go storming into the police station and demand to be deputized, either, nor can I run into a courtroom and yell, "This isn't fair! I declare a mistrial!" Sometimes, you just can't. You have to suck it up.

 

Perhaps playing an alien character under the absolutist "mind class" rules system means you can't effect any of the humans on Earth. Well, just buy an Adder for human! In return, most humans won't be able to affect YOU with their mental powers!

 

Just because something isn't perfectly "balanced" in game terms does not mean it is broken. Revamping the entire game system to fit your character concept is just ludicrous.

 

Well, that's my 0.02 cents (which is about what this post will be worth to some people who've been participating on this thread). As always, I've posted not to benefit myself, but to try and get people to see things from a fresh perspective, for their own peace of mind, should their mind be changed.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Can we just degenerate to me calling you names instead of all this reasoned argument?

 

 

I disagree. I see the issue PRECISELY as related to simulation (big S, little s, whichever). I want to see the guidelines more clear as to the manifestation of the SFX of the actual mental power. And I think the rest becomes a regurgitation back into what I said before...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I'm not sure he wants this kind of support for his position.

 

Hey, support is still support. I wont' knock it.

 

Whether or not it helps is another matter...

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I sometimes don't like these 4-way cross-fire arguments.

 

Too many friendly fire injuries!

 

That plus it just gets confusing.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

The game also states GM's may alter the costs of powers, advantages, limitations and what have you as he sees fit. By stating the four classes of minds in the core rules, these become enshrined as "official", with any deviation from them being a house rule. I do not believe the "classes of mind" rules belong in the core rules at all. I certainly don't believe those four belong in the core rules.

Not it doesn't. Well, yes it does, but NOT in the Powers section or the Modifiers section. Only for those specific items who's cost, usage, relavancy, etc. fluctuates greately from game to game and genre to genre, and only in those specific item's descriptions, will it mention something about altering it. The only place you find mention of altering anything in the system (as opposed to any specific part of it) is a remark made in general and stated as such, or found in the back of the book in an entire chapter devoted to altering the rules.

 

I find it hard to believe you would so easily ignore this, and harder still to believe you to expect the majority of others too as well.

 

 

To clarify, I have no problem with providing for a special rule dealing with mental powers which affect only machines with no Ego score, but possessing an INT score in some fashion. In my view, this should stack out overall as a limitation, and is best considered a completely separate power (cyberpaths aren't commonly telepaths and vice versa, so a huge discount to link the two isn't needed).

 

However, "classes of minds" are not needed to incorporate a mechanic for mental powers which affect non-sentient computers rather than sentient beings. The "alien class" of minds, and the "animal" class of minds were hardly necessary to allow for a cyberpath.

 

I would have mental powers affect, by default, only characters with Ego scores. That would include animals, AI's, Firewing and Mechanon, and exclude computers. The "mechanical mental powers" rules would then apply to create characters with mental powers that affect computers.

 

If a mentalist wants to define his powers as "only affecting humans", a limitation appropriate to the campaign world would be assessed. In a Superspies game, this might be -1/4. In a Call of Cthulhu game, it might be -1 or even greater.

 

And this mindset makes Mental Powers too powerful, too cheep, or both. Only Versus Humans becomes the next OIHID or Not In Magnetic Fields Limitation used by powergamers and munchkins.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

It's a fair point but I"m of two minds on that - properly explained and understood, such a -1/4 Limitation can make sense...so long as the GM does indeed take it that it will limit the character on some occassion. But, yes, these things often lead to what you cite.

 

In my campaign, though, it'd be -1/4 - actually given 2 of the PCs aren't human, it'd be worth a lot more!

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I come at this issue from the opposite end.

 

Dontchya love that?

 

It is not that Venus Mindcontroller has to either pay more points or accept Penalties to her ability to cause mass swooning of the human male population. Or that her powers are somehow worth the same amount of points as Computo, the man with the Electronic Brain.

 

It is that Squato, the alien brick, with 8 EGO and no mental defense is suddenly either immune to almost all mental powers or has free mental defense (10 or 5 points depending on the power used against him).

 

So SFX suddenly trumps points? Since when?

 

And now that we cleared that up since I paid points for Squato to be Immune to Intense heat he is now by points and SFX totally immune to your character's flame blast.

 

Didn't work did it?

 

So we're back to square one and the fact that SFX does not trump points and that simply saying "I have a dog mind!" does not give you more capability or reduce the capability other character' have paid for.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

It is that Squato, the alien brick, with 8 EGO and no mental defense is suddenly either immune to almost all mental powers or has free mental defense (10 or 5 points depending on the power used against him).

 

So SFX suddenly trumps points? Since when?

 

And now that we cleared that up since I paid points for Squato to be Immune to Intense heat he is now by points and SFX totally immune to your character's flame blast.

 

Didn't work did it?

 

So we're back to square one and the fact that SFX does not trump points and that simply saying "I have a dog mind!" does not give you more capability or reduce the capability other character' have paid for.

 

Hawksmoor makes my point more clearly than I have. The mentalist (PC or NPC) can't affect certain characters, solely because they have a background element. Ironclad of the Champions can pound Menton into the dirt (well, Menton has some non-mental powers, but you get the idea) just because he's an alien, instead of being a mutant or bitten by a radioactive armadillo.

 

[And never mind the implications of a human who gets mental powers through alien technology...what's his default?]

 

EDIT: "You must spread rep around before giving it to Hawksmoor". BLAST!

 

In my campaign' date=' though, it'd be -1/4 - actually given 2 of the PCs aren't human, it'd be worth a lot more![/quote']

 

Those PC's are, of course, immune to the mental powers of the vast majority of CU characters. Presumably, as these are official characters, they are written up under the official rules and intended to be utterly helpless against characters from another planet.

 

Only Versus Humans becomes the next OIHID or Not In Magnetic Fields Limitation used by powergamers and munchkins.

 

Retain classes of minds and "I'm an Alien" becomes the background used by powergamers and munchkins. Add in Desolid, and look how easy it is to affect the character.

 

Only vs Humans will cost you at some point, guaranteed. "Firewing is an alien. Your powers have no impact." "Help! Help! A lion has escaped from the zoo." These types of scenarios will logically justfy some type of limitation.

 

How does "Not vs powers purchased with the 'affects aliens' adder" justify unlimited mental defense carrying no cost whatsoever?

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I have always felt that "human class minds" applies to the character's own species. If an alien has a "human class mind" default then his ability only effects his race.

 

Alien, is any sentient biological mind that is not of the player's race.

 

Animal is non-sentient biological life.

 

And Mechanical, is well mechanical.

 

Thus if you want to effect your own species, you must buy no adder. If you want to effect other species you have to buy the appropriate adder. I actually like this idea. Alien/animal minds (and by that I mean minds other than those of your own species) may not think the same way you would, or be effected by your abilities the same way your species would be.

 

I think Human should be expanded to any PC type with free will, such as intelligent aliens, androids, vampires etc, because that's what the book hints at.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I think, perhaps, a lot of this comes down to the fear many have of mental-based characters already being too powerful. Perhaps in some part CoM was created to combat that, I don't know. But I was reminded, reading the last few posts, how opinion is highly divided as to whether mentalists are over- or under-powered or somewhere inbetween. I tend to think they're fine.

 

Although I don't think CoM makes a real dent either way if the optional rule is used to allow for -3 ECV rolls. Actually, I kind of think things are worse, balance-wise, if GMs take the letter of the law re CoM in 5th, because then there's no SFX mitigation for different minds and I think it's a little too effective, although not by much, perhaps not even significant. And I'm not really blaming the rulebook if GMs don't take SFX into account, but then again I do think that 5ER, as it stands, is too leading with CoM as written.

 

To the point you made about abuses for PCs, I don't know how bad it is as to be fair the CoM rules state - in what I find to be a bit arbitrary - that "all player characters...are affected as if they belong to the Human class..." - which most GMs are going to end up applying to at least many NPCs to balance, though the text doesn't state that. Clauses like this make the whole thing fudgey, though.

[Lord Zod]

Re: Mental Powers

 

It seems to me that all of this argument is really not about the issue of classes of minds itself but about the issue of fitting characters into the right categories so that nobody gets a free ride thanks to their background or sfx. I think there are better ways to fix this than eliminating classes of minds altogether.

 

I think classes of minds are vital to doing mental powers right. In most of the source material, fantasy fiction, superhero comics, and science fiction, mentalists are extremely limited in terms of who they can affect.

 

If you make a Druid that can control the minds of animals, his power shouldn't work on humans. A supervillian with the power to control the brain chemistry of his foes should not affect computer terminals.

 

Sure you could give these characters a limitation to model this and have all mental powers affect all targets with ego scores by default. But IMO that would be unbalanced. It would make mental powers too good. The power to control animals, people, and machines are all different powers that happen to work the same way mechanically. And I don't you will ever be able to convince me that they do not possess equal utility to each other or to any other power with the same cost per die.

 

Except maybe Ego Attack. Maybe you think its unbalanced to have an attack power that by default can't do damage to any target you aim it at, like a RKA or EB could. Then you can always just assume the developers didn't have Ego Attack in mind when they made the class of minds rule (they aren't infallible after all) and allow Ego Attack to work on anything with something resembling a nervous system.

 

And it would be so simple to just fit all PCs into the people, or sentient category. If your smart enough to be a viable PC then you are not an animal, even if you are talking cat. If you are an advanced AI, then maybe you should count as a human and not a machine. Maybe you should take a physical limitation and count as both.

 

The real problem is that one distinction, Alien vs Human minds. I'm all for modifying this. You could reason the "Human" means your own species and "Alien" means every other sentient thing. (Everybody's an alien to somebody after all, and it does fit some source material if mentalists need "extra training," ie 10 more pts, to affect other species.) This maybe too limiting in some games where aliens are very common or are uncommon but still allowed as PCs. Another solution is to merge them together, call it sentient minds, and let advanced robots fit in too. You could also assume that "alien" was never really meant to refer to elves or people from Krypton but to truly alien and bizarre extra dimensional beings. HP Lovecraft monsters fit in their own category, counting neither as sentient beings nor as normal animals, yet certain mentalists trained in the occult can control them and harness their power.

 

The whole point is to make sure PCs and major antagonists don't get a free ride, and that really isn't hard to do. If you use one of my suggestions in the last paragraph, which all stick to the rules more or less as written, though they may be different interpretations, then you can have your supers campaign where strange visitors from another world have no advantages of disadvantages over Earth's homegrown mutants, still allow for quick and easy construction of animal empathy and cyberkinesis type abilities, and maintain your prescious canonical rules.

 

Maybe I'm wrong on this one, but would we be having this discussion if their were originally only 3 classes of minds? If it really that big a deal for the power to affect people, animals, and computers to count, by default, as different abilities? Would this be an issue if the developers had specifically stated, not as an option or suggestion but as an official rule, that all sentient beings, human, alien, or android, and therefore anything remotely resembling a viable PCs, were all in one category, by default? Or is it that important to you that Mentalla the Enchantress be able to use her powers to seduce bears, house cats, playstations, and i-macs?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

To avoid overquoting: Hugh, Hawksmoor, try looking at it this way...

 

Since when did the Alien class of mind include "dudes from other planets"? I don't recall it saying that in the books. It just lists a term named Alien. I naturally assumed it meant that litterally... something that is completely different in fuction and method than a human mind. From what I've seen Spock, E.T. and My Favorite Martial all have human minds. Cthulu has an alien mind. The strange energy beings that inhabit the middle atmosphere of gas giants have alien minds. The 4th dimentional hyperkitty and the superintilligent shade of blue would have alien minds. Of course, these are things that no PC can ever play, except in extremely rare situations.

 

Look at it this way and there is no such thing as a "really, if I play the Noob from Neptune I'm immune to mental powers for free?" issue. The Noob from Neptune has a human class of mind.... or rather, humans have the same class of mind as the Noob.

 

I think you are taking this stuff way too litterally. Relax and allow yourself to interperate for a while.