Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

[Susano]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

Oh, the irony.

 

Godzilla wasn't awakened by the nukes. He was awakened by the ritual the nukes were dropped to disrupt!

 

Hadn't considered that!

[gewing]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

If this is the one I'm thinking of, it fired a "plug" of compressed air and could shattered a thick oak plank at ranges of... 200? yards.

 

 

 

The Dragon King under the sea.

 

 

That would work. ONI or Tengu didn't quite make sense.

[gewing]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

SURF NAZIS MUST DIE!!!

 

 

DAMN that was a bad movie!

[gewing]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

Don't see how that would have been worse than Hamburg/Dresden. Incendiaries at night, explosives by day, tens of thousands dead.

 

If it took place in 41, we probably would have seen a ceasefire agreement.

 

 

The gasses would probably have killed a lot more than the NORMAL bombings. Sure, the Firebombings were vicious, but iirc it took a thousand planes to pull one off, more or less.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

The gasses would probably have killed a lot more than the NORMAL bombings. Sure' date=' the Firebombings were vicious, but iirc it took a thousand planes to pull one off, more or less.[/quote']

Dunno, since there's a lot of variables(weather, wind, population concentration, etc.) in determining the effectiveness of chemical weapons.

 

Perhaps a 500+ plane night bombing of London with Sarin would have generated casualties in the tens of thousands, perhaps not. I'd expect Germany to start issuing chemical masks to citizens either shortly before or shortly after the first strike.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

Talking about nerve gas, I remember reading that the US was going to conduct a massive campaign of nerve gas attacks against every major Japanese city for two weeks, nonstop, before launching Operation Olympic (the invasion of Japan). They figured it would produce a kill total somewhere in the low millions.

 

And concerning Japanese A-bombs, I believe that was one reason why Stalin was so eager to send the troops into Manchuria and Korea. He apparently believed that the info was there and that if he moved quick enough he'd have his own A-bomb.

 

And does anyone remember something about a U-boat that surrendered at an Argentine port a few weeks after the war ended that carried a heavy load of liquid mercury? I never heard that anyone knew what they were ferrying all the mercury around for.

[st barbara]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

Has anyone read Alfred Coppel's novel "The Burning Mountain" ? If my memory is correct the Japanese try to use Mustard Gas to repel the Allied invasion of Japan in that.

[Old Man]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

Talking about nerve gas' date=' I remember reading that the US was going to conduct a massive campaign of nerve gas attacks against every major Japanese city for two weeks, nonstop, before launching Operation Olympic (the invasion of Japan). They figured it would produce a kill total somewhere in the low millions. [/quote']

 

I have trouble believing that, since by the time Little Boy was dropped, there were so few Japanese cities left intact that the targeting committee had a very hard time finding anything to drop it on. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen partly because they hadn't been firebombed out of existence yet.

 

And does anyone remember something about a U-boat that surrendered at an Argentine port a few weeks after the war ended that carried a heavy load of liquid mercury? I never heard that anyone knew what they were ferrying all the mercury around for.

 

I'd heard that some U-boats carried mercury as ballast, which would be easy to pump out in case of emergency. But I don't think there's actually anything to that.

 

Hmm... googling seems to indicate that several U-boats were carrying lots of mercury around at the end of the war, but again, no explanation. Well, there's a pulp plot just waiting to happen.

[Mantis]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

Hmm... googling seems to indicate that several U-boats were carrying lots of mercury around at the end of the war' date=' but again, no explanation. Well, there's a pulp plot just waiting to happen.[/quote']Due to the Allies' surface blockade, the Germans (and Italians) and Japanese conducted their trade in strategic goods using submarines. Several U-boats carried mercury as part of their ballast on the outward journey, planning to replace it by some other material on the return journey.

 

Some of these journeys make amazing tales in their own right, although they would not make particularly good roleplaying fodder.

[Roter Baron]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

In other words, countries the size of montana should not necessarily believe they can conquer the world?

 

Or

 

being outnumbered 50 to 1 makes for great songs, but painful wars?

 

Basically? Yeah.

[austenandrews]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

Mercury is excellent for making small-scale models of water-driven systems.

[Susano]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

 

At one point the German military fielded proposals for an immense series of "landkruisers." This model shows one of the proposed designs, the 1,000 ton "Ratte" (Rat). Although never produced (It would have required enough steel to produce a year's worth of Panthers!), the sheer scale of the vehicle is staggering. Dwarfing the the Tiger II (seen next to it), the Ratte would have 35 meters (115 feet) long, 14 meters (46 feet) wide, and 11 meters (36 feet) high. The main armament was to be two 280mm cannon of the type normally used for battleships and coastal defense, with six 75mm guns in separate, hull-mounted turrets. The 280mm guns were to be mounted in a turret all their own. Atop this was to be another turret mounting twin 88mm flak guns, as well as eight smaller turrets packing twin 20mm antiaircraft guns.

 

As the Ratte was never made, questions such as speed, crew, and thickness of armor, are unknown. Its weight would have made it a highly impractical vehicle, and no bridge in Germany would have supported it. Other the other hand, the initial appearance of such a machine, a literal mobile fortress, would have been frightening, to say the least.

[Mantis]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

As the Ratte was never made' date=' questions such as speed, crew, and thickness of armor, are unknown. Its weight would have made it a highly impractical vehicle, and no bridge in Germany would have supported it. Other the other hand, the initial appearance of such a machine, a literal mobile fortress, would have been frightening, to say the least.[/quote']The Germans did produce a super-heavy tank (or SPG - I can't recall which), the "Maus" (Mouse). It wasn't anywhere near the scale of the "Ratte", but was still too heavy for bridge crossings. They got around this by making it watertight, and fitting it with electric motors, one per track. To cross a river, the Maus was sealed up, hooked up to a generator vehicle (which remained on dry land) to power the electic motors, and then driven across the river underwater. On re-emergence, the air intakes and exhaust would be unsealed and it would continue on its conventional engine. The process was slow and complex and not something that could be done under fire, even in the most desperate situations.

[gewing]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

The Germans did produce a super-heavy tank (or SPG - I can't recall which)' date=' the "Maus" (Mouse). It wasn't anywhere near the scale of the "Ratte", but was still too heavy for bridge crossings. They got around this by making it watertight, and fitting it with electric motors, one per track. To cross a river, the Maus was sealed up, hooked up to a generator vehicle (which remained on dry land) to power the electic motors, and then driven across the river underwater. On re-emergence, the air intakes and exhaust would be unsealed and it would continue on its conventional engine. The process was slow and complex and not something that could be done under fire, even in the most desperate situations.[/quote']

 

 

I think they made two or three Maus prototypes, but I don't think any of them were actually finished.

 

The one I kind of liked was the proposal for a MAUS based anti aircraft tank, with TWIN 88mm Flak guns!!

[Old Man]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

True silliness would be a six-barrelled 88mm Gatling gun...

[gewing]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

True silliness would be a six-barrelled 88mm Gatling gun...

 

[Susano]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

The Germans did produce a super-heavy tank (or SPG - I can't recall which)' date=' the "Maus" (Mouse). It wasn't anywhere near the scale of the "Ratte", but was still too heavy for bridge crossings. They got around this by making it watertight, and fitting it with electric motors, one per track. To cross a river, the Maus was sealed up, hooked up to a generator vehicle (which remained on dry land) to power the electic motors, and then driven across the river underwater. On re-emergence, the air intakes and exhaust would be unsealed and it would continue on its conventional engine. The process was slow and complex and not something that could be done under fire, even in the most desperate situations.[/quote']

 

"Maus" weighed in at 188 tons, with a turret that weighed as much as a Panzer III. It has a 150mm main gun, and a 75mm coaxial. Armor was something like 250mm thick. I've done a character sheet for an eventual DH article on Pulp-Era tanks.

 

EDIT: As I understand it, two were produced and saw action versus the Soviets outside of Berlin. Both machines broke down and were abandoned by their crews and captured by the Russians.

[Mantis]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

I think they made two or three Maus prototypes' date=' but I don't think any of them were actually finished.[/quote']You may be right - I am going from memory, I don't have my source handy - it certainly sounds right. The weapon's fit Susano cites rings a bell, too.

[LordGhee]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

GAS

 

One question that everyone who studies WWII eventually comes to ponder is why was not used, especially since it was used massively in the First World War.

 

 

For a complete history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_gas_in_World_War_I

 

I am amused that the first attack resulted in the gas (tear, 1915 Jan) freezing and limiting it effect. 18,000 shells fired, and here is the problem artillery on target is just as effective. Gas needs really good weather, slightly cloudily with no wind. Here is a picture of gas projectors that throw 100 lb bottle of gas 2000yds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Livens_gas_projector_loading.jpg

In one attack 1500 projectors where used. A lot of effort.

 

When in 1916 Germany introduced artillery shells with gas and everyone followed the delivery problem was solved but not the supply for if you bring in gas you have that much less HE.

 

For the British 3% of Gas attacks where fatal, so if you where in a gas attack you have a good chance of surviving. After gas mask (filter type) where introduced casualties went down to 10% of before (even so 160,000 + British soldiers were casualties in 1918 from gas.

 

It was a frightful weapon. A Man that my grandfather knew died of war wounds in 1932; it took him that long to drown from the mustard gas damage to his lungs. He was the first person any one remembers to carry an air tank around with him and was buried with honors.

 

Hitler was gassed so he understood its effects and limitation. When an army is advancing you do not want to use gas as it can affects you also. When you are losing you do not want to use gas as you just made it worse for you. With out Nerve agents in mass and the fact everyone had huge stockpiles of mustard gas ect meant that gas would not swing the balance.

 

 

Germany did not get any nerve agent plants up until 1942. The fact was the Germans where aware of the fact that Dupont alone could make ten times the amount of nerve agent than they. (Once used it could easily be copied). As long as their cities where under enemy bombers it limited any gas attack on Britain. The Germans did try out artillery delivered agent in a test at the start of the stalingrad campaign and killed a regiment of Russians. The German high command felt that they where at the losing end of that strategy. The nerve gas production complex was overrun by the soviets in 1944.

The American military issued Gas mask until the end of the war. The Troops who landed at Normandy on D Day hand not only Gas mask but protective clothes as well. I have a great book on the landings list every unit and equipment. The GI’s that landed by the end of July had turned in the Protective cloths as to heavy but kept the mask in case (and they are useful when there is a lot of smoke.) the Russian doctrine is such up until this day.

 

As far as Japan goes, since the Japanese did not produce any new artillery during the war which shows how strapped they where. Their limited resources did not allow any real thought on using gas in mass.

 

One of the last major descions that FDR made before he passed was not to use mustard gas on Iwo Jima. This was a serious proposal and well documented. He decided that The US would not use gas first.

 

In Nam everyone carried their mask, as the Americans used tear gas all over and the NVA followed soviet pratice of using mask when under smoke and the American used tear gas (we just went over that.)

 

Gas turned out like the Machine gun, it could do impressive damage, mow down hundreds but with some adjustments its effects could be limited.

 

Lord Ghee.

[Markdoc]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

GAS

 

One question that everyone who studies WWII eventually comes to ponder is why was not used, especially since it was used massively in the First World War.

 

The simple and real reason is that gas weapons are not very effective - even in WW1, where no effective countermeasures were available for the first 12 months, it took roughly a half-ton of gas to generate one casualty (and that includes casualties caused to the user's troops as well). It was a hell of a lot cheaper, safer and effective to just use high explosive instead. And that was in trench warfare, where your targets were tightly packed. In normal field conditions, gas is of very little use, part from generating panic.

 

The big problem is concentration: the 11 liters of Sarin used in the japanese subway attacks was (in theory) enough to kill 22,000 people. In fact, it killed 12, and that in a situation (a packed subway) which was ideal for getting high local concentrations. The gas attacks in Iraq under Saddam show how variable this is. A concentrated attack on Halabja using mustard gas and at least two nerve agents caused about 7000 casualties. A similar attack on Birjinni caused 4.

 

So I am not sure that the use of sarin on D-Day would have been at all significant. We know it was as windy as hell, and you are talking about trying to cover many miles of coastline. The odds are very good that all the expense of producing shipping and stockpiling hundreds of thousands of tons of gas would have been for naught. And the High Command knew that. Sensibly, they decided to use their resources elsewhere.

 

cheers, Mark

[megaplayboy]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

"Maus" weighed in at 188 tons, with a turret that weighed as much as a Panzer III. It has a 150mm main gun, and a 75mm coaxial. Armor was something like 250mm thick. I've done a character sheet for an eventual DH article on Pulp-Era tanks.

 

EDIT: As I understand it, two were produced and saw action versus the Soviets outside of Berlin. Both machines broke down and were abandoned by their crews and captured by the Russians.

 

There's a Maus on display at the Russian Tank Museum in Kublinka. Perhaps I'll go there sometime...

[Susano]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

There's a Maus on display at the Russian Tank Museum in Kublinka. Perhaps I'll go there sometime...

 

That's one of them.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

The Ratte would have needed an escort of at least one regiment of infantry, a couple dozen flak vehicles, and probably a heavy tank battalion and armored car battalion as well. Not to mention armored fuel trucks or halftracks.

[Cancer]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

At one point the German military fielded proposals for an immense series of "landkruisers." This model shows one of the proposed designs' date=' the 1,000 ton "Ratte" (Rat). Although never produced (It would have required enough steel to produce a year's worth of Panthers!), the sheer scale of the vehicle is staggering. Dwarfing the the Tiger II (seen next to it), the Ratte would have 35 meters (115 feet) long, 14 meters (46 feet) wide, and 11 meters (36 feet) high. The main armament was to be two 280mm cannon of the type normally used for battleships and coastal defense, with six 75mm guns in separate, hull-mounted turrets. The 280mm guns were to be mounted in a turret all their own. Atop this was to be another turret mounting twin 88mm flak guns, as well as eight smaller turrets packing twin 20mm antiaircraft guns.[/quote']

At 1000 tons, that puts it about half the mass of a WW2 destroyer, or about the mass of one of the smaller WW2 submarines or destroyer escorts, I think. With two 280mm (11 inch) guns, six 75mm, two 88mm, and sixteen 20mm, that's an armament comparable to a 10,000 ton cruiser or 8,000 ton monitor.

 

The power requirements (and hence fuel requirements) for a monster like that are staggering. Still, it could have been attacked with known technology; naval guns (which could be mounted on wheeled carriages) were intended to fight that class of opponent, and the Japanese were successful in converting naval gun AP shells into aircraft bombs, which worked quite well at Pearl Harbor.

[Susano]

Re: Wunderwaffen!!! - Secret German Warmachines of WW 2

 

At 1000 tons' date=' that puts it about half the mass of a WW2 destroyer, or about the mass of one of the smaller WW2 submarines or destroyer escorts, I think. With two 280mm (11 inch) guns, six 75mm, two 88mm, and sixteen 20mm, that's an armament comparable to a 10,000 ton cruiser or 8,000 ton monitor. [/quote']

 

They did call it the "landkruiser"!