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"Active Points" in VPPs - follow up from the Hero System Questions forum


wylodmayer

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Okay, first, a shout out and thank you to Steve for taking the time to answer my dumb question over there. It's stuff like that which sets HERO Games apart from other companies, and gives rise to loyal fans like the people here.

 

In any case, Steve's answer to my question was basically, "do what works for you," so I thought I'd throw it up to the Peanut Gallery and see, well, what has worked for other people.

 

The question has to do with what kind of VPPs you allow in games with an active point cap. According to the FAQ, the pool's points are the only thing you should consider in determining if the power comes in under the cap - ignore the control cost. As I pointed out in my initial question, that would allow a character to have, in a game with a 90 ActPts cap, a 90 ActPts Cosmic Power Pool, the Control Cost on which is, alone, 135 pts (or something like that). But, then again, no power built with it can have more than 90 Active Points, so maybe that's their thinking on that.

 

Now, the FAQ *also* says in the very next sentence that you could also use the Pool's cost plus the Active Points in the Control Cost to determine the "Active Points" of the VPP, which would limit any Cosmic Power VPP to a 36 point Pool.

 

To me, for a game with that kind of ActPts cap, one seems too high, and the other seems too low. I've run a lot of superhero games, and we've had a lot of people using VPPs, especially when we delve into the upper end games, the "High Powered" Superheroic stuff. Frankly, it gets a bit tiresome to me to have people building VPPs for powers that frankly seem better suited to Multipowers, except that the player claims it's better for him to use the Variable Power Pool. But, although I do believe in campaign control, I do feel like a bad guy for denying a player a perfectly legal build that is totally within concept just because I would build it another way. I mean, what's individuality for, right?

 

So, on the one hand, using the "Second Method" suggested in the FAQ would put a stop to that, but it doesn't seem right that the highest Cosmic Pool that would allow in even a High Powered game would be 36 points. But on the other hand, the "First Method" seems like it could get REALLY out of hand, especially because it takes no account of the Control Cost, which is really what determines the actual, practical usefulness of the VPP in the first place.

 

In our past games, we've considered the Control Cost and the Pool each as separate entities, each of which must come in under the Active Point cap on their own. Thing is, even that has tended to encourage players to use VPPs, at least in High Powered games. Last one we played, three of five players had a VPP as their main power.

 

So, the thing I want to know from y'all is, how do you handle it? The "First Method," which only considers the pool? The "Second Method" which considers both together? The "Alternate Method" we use which considers both, but separately? Something else?

 

Should I even be worried about this? It does kind of encourage creativity from my players, after all. One guy made a plant goddess who had a "plant powers" VPP, and he came up with some terrific stuff for it. Another guy had a mystically oriented private detective who literally had a bag full of magic artifacts, and he would just whip out the one most appropriate to the situation. Great character.

 

But, I dunno, it just feels like there's something missing when everyone just resorts to a VPP and is done with it. Plus, last time we played, it *felt like* (and maybe this was an illusion) the VPP characters were hideously more effective, point for point, than the non VPP characters, which didn't seem kosher. They should have the edge in flexibility, not raw power, I think.

 

Okay, I'll stop obsessing now. Lemme know.

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Re: "Active Points" in VPPs - follow up from the Hero System Questions forum

 

What about using Pool Points + (Active Control Cost - Base Control Cost)? So on a VPP with no Advantages, the Active Points would be equal to the Pool Points for purposes of comparing to the campaign caps. But for VPPs with Advantages, the Active Points of the Control Cost (beyond the base Control Cost) would be added.

 

For example, on the 90-point Cosmic (+2) VPP that you mentioned before, the VPP's Active Cost for campaign cap purposes would be 180 (instead of 90 or 225). Using this method, you could fit a 45-point Cosmic VPP into a 90 Active Point capped campaign.

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Re: "Active Points" in VPPs - follow up from the Hero System Questions forum

 

What are you doing for the AP cap for a Multipower? Like a VPP, a Multipower is just a construct for having multiple powers under one umbrella. In my experience, the AP cap is usually applied only to multipower slots. This means:

 

- you can have a 120 point MP, so long as no slot exceeds 60 AP (you can use two at once)

 

- you can have a 60 point MP with 25 slots (6 points each) even though that puts the total cost of the Multipower at 210 points

 

To me, the slot cost in the MP is analogous to the control cost in the VPP. A cosmic VPP is just a multipower with an infinite number of standard slots.

 

Assuming the AP limit only applies to MP slots, I would allow any size VPP, with the caveat that no single power purchased through the VPP can exceed the campaign's AP limit. Whether you allow a limitation for that is a good question. I might if it significantly impairs the VPP's abilities. The MP gets a point break in that the slot costs would be higher if they could access a pool greater than the AP limit, so a small break for the VPP isn't out of line.

 

I would also establish that the VPP cannot be used to break other campaign limits, such as max DC's or max defenses.

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Re: "Active Points" in VPPs - follow up from the Hero System Questions forum

 

Active Points are just one method used to track overall capability. And a half decent one at that.

 

I would worry about the cost of indivdual powers for Active Cost - if a game has a 60AP limit on Powers, and a player fits a VPP with a 90pt Pool, that just allows them to run more powers at once.

 

Look at what the VPP actually allows them to do (Cosmic, Gadget, Magic, Attack Powers, et cetera) as well and compare that to what you want out of the players in the game. If it's a Cosmic VPP but only allows Movement Powers that's a different monster from a Cosmic VPP without any limitations at all, regardless of the Pool Points and Active Point Caps.

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Re: "Active Points" in VPPs - follow up from the Hero System Questions forum

 

What about using Pool Points + (Active Control Cost - Base Control Cost)? So on a VPP with no Advantages' date=' the Active Points would be equal to the Pool Points for purposes of comparing to the campaign caps. But for VPPs with Advantages, the Active Points of the Control Cost (beyond the base Control Cost) would be added.[/quote']

 

Elegant! I may use that...

 

...if a game has a 60AP limit on Powers' date=' and a player fits a VPP with a 90pt Pool, that just allows them to run more powers at once...Look at what the VPP actually allows them to do...If it's a Cosmic VPP but only allows Movement Powers that's a different monster from a Cosmic VPP without any limitations at all, regardless of the Pool Points and Active Point Caps.[/quote']

 

Also very true. Someone else (just who slips my mind, sorry) that a Multipower can have any size pool, but no SLOT can exceed the ActPts cap - that was a good point, and one that had escaped my notice relavant to this issue, to be honest. But it's definitely a pertinent consideration, as are all the points raised on this thread so far. Thanks, everyone; food for thought.

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Re: "Active Points" in VPPs - follow up from the Hero System Questions forum

 

First let me say that you are fortunate to have players adept enough at running VPPs that they can make awesome characters with them; most players either fall into a rut of the same power again and again, or they spend too much time tinkering in the middle of gameplay.

 

I would second ghost-angel's point about Active points not being the only metric to look at. I think a more comprehensive way to do it would be to cap attack powers, defense powers, movement powers, characteristics, and "other" powers separately (maybe you want to break that down in some other fashion, but you get the point). This will also allow you to define the level and lethality of play.

 

Now when a player sets up their VPP, it doesn't matter how big it is; that just determines how many powers they can run at once. The level of those powers is set by the individual power caps.

 

So there is two more cents. (and as an aside, I personally love running characters with VPPs)

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Re: "Active Points" in VPPs - follow up from the Hero System Questions forum

 

Or... you could use "Base Points in the Pool, or Active Points in the Control Cost, whichever is higher" when comparing the power against the Active Point cap to see if it fits into the campaign or not.

 

So in a game with a 60 Active Point cap, a VPP could be no bigger than 60 Base Points. If you wanted some Advantages (on the Control Cost) then the Pool will likely end up smaller, as the points in the Control Cost can't exceed the 60 Active Point cap, either.

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Guest daeudi_454

Re: "Active Points" in VPPs - follow up from the Hero System Questions forum

 

Every group I have been in for 15+ years has played it that the AP of any power made by a VPP could not be more than the cap...

Past that, it didn't mateer if you spent 250pts on your VPP in a 60 cap.

 

As long as no constructed power was more than the cap.

(of course, if your vpp is 0End, so is your constructed EB, and there go some points!)

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Re: "Active Points" in VPPs - follow up from the Hero System Questions forum

 

Every group I have been in for 15+ years has played it that the AP of any power made by a VPP could not be more than the cap...

 

Near as I can tell, that's the standard rule. My main concern was whether I should worry about the versatility issue.

 

And you're right, I AM lucky to have the group I do (but now I'm leaving them! wah!), because this was actually brought up to me by one of the guys who usually PLAYS the VPP character in the group. He was concerned that he was "getting away with something" he shouldn't be, because he liked the character but noticed that he was getting, I guess, exceptional mileage. Frankly, I didn't think he was any more powerful than the rest of the group... which I suppose goes to prove the point that the pool size in particular is the main thing to worry about.

 

Still, I think I will continue to look at the Active Cost of the Control, just as a gauge, and, per ghost-angel's suggestion, also consider the nature of the powers involved.

 

Thanks.

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Re: "Active Points" in VPPs - follow up from the Hero System Questions forum

 

Sticking to my theme that VPP's and Multipowers are related in this respect, a 60 point Cosmic VPP costs 150 points (60 for the pool plus 90 for the control cost). That's the equivalent of a Multipower with 15 Ultra slots, or 7.5 Standard slots.

 

Players who have multipowers exceeding that break point should consider conversion of their multipower into a VPP. Now, this rule of thumb varies if the Multipower has limitations on the pool, since these would decrease the cost of the pool for a Multipower, but increase the number of usable powers in a VPP. Alternatively, if the MP is "attacks only" or "one SFX only", and that will carry over to the VPP, that restriction on the VPP will reduce the control cost of the VPP, making the breakpoint lower. To me, if the character has enough uses of his powers (ie enough multipower slots) that an equivalent cosmic VPP would be cheaper, the VPP should be serioiusly considered. Even if the character only uses the slots he otherwise would have purchased in the Multipower, there is no compelling reason, in my view, that he should pay more points than the VPP would cost.

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Re: "Active Points" in VPPs - follow up from the Hero System Questions forum

 

Even if the character only uses the slots he otherwise would have purchased in the Multipower' date=' there is no compelling reason, in my view, that he should pay more points than the VPP would cost.[/quote']

 

That's the part that ultimately sells me on it every time. I feel weird about encouraging - even passively - players to buy VPPs when they could just as well use a MP for the power set, but I just can't get myself to believe that they should have to pay more points for the same concept when they could be paying less, and for more versatility to boot. The main reason I posted to this forum on this issue was just to wonder aloud if perhaps the reason why VPPs *seemed* so cost effective to us was that we were incorrectly treating the ActPts. Now, it appears as if we've been even more strict that the rules actually require, and they're STILL more efficient...

 

...does make you wonder about MPs though, doesn't it? It just seems weird to me to think that they're really only efficient up to about 8-10 slots, depending on certain variables. But, then, I guess I can agree, Hugh, that once you reach that level of versatility, you probably SHOULD just have a VPP anyway.

 

Thanks

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Re: "Active Points" in VPPs - follow up from the Hero System Questions forum

 

I run a game where the number of characters with VPPs is a rather high percentage of the player characters. And I've been running the game for a long time.

 

The thing I've seen is that it is't the size of the pool that matters. It's the intelligence and imagination of the player, and that you can't limit.

 

I had one player who had a character with a 30 pt. power. It made the character so versatile it made him virtually a god.

 

I had one player who came to be known as the "King of the Power Pools" because he was so effective with his characters (he'd come up with fascinating builds on the fly.)

 

I had one player who after several years converted a Multipower to a Variable Power Pool because a) he had the points, and B) he saw how versatile the VPP structure was. His style of play was such that the character got no more versatile.

 

I had one player who had a massive imagination, and a huge amount of Math Anxiety. She had a mentalist character with a VPP. Easiest way to keep a mentalist from being abusive: let the GM (or his assist.) do the point constructions.

 

I have two players that when they were each running their own games, the other brought in a VPP character. And each, as a GM, had a problem because the other player's character was too powerful/versatile for the kind of stories they wanted to tell. At about the same time. It was painful for everyone, but I, at least found it funny too.

 

So, no power built with a VP pool may exceed the campaign AP cap. Anything else is just an overcomplication.

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Re: "Active Points" in VPPs - follow up from the Hero System Questions forum

 

Along these lines, what sort of limitation would you allow for the control cost of a Cosmic VPP that can only be used for Energy Blast attacks with Force special effects?

 

My first thought is that, since it strictly limits the power that can be created and the special effects of that power, it would be worth -1 1/2. However, I'm interested in what others would find reasonable and why.

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