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Originally posted by Trebuchet

You are extrapolating from a lifting chart which doubles lifting capability per 5 points, but does not double either throwing or leaping distances. Based on the other aspects of the STR charts, arbitrarily assuming each DC is twice as much damage is not supported.

 

It does allow for picking up a dinosaur at 75 STR, dropping it on a normal with 10 BODY (take 15 dice!), and if he gets immediate medical attention within a few turns, he'll live.

 

"Gee, Mighty Man, if you didn't rush me to the hospital, I might have died."

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Originally posted by Kaeto

At least it isn't as bad as the guy in my gaming group who took the earth as a focus, and defined it as fragile so that it only took 1 body to destroy it.

 

Interviewer: Tick, what exactly can you do? Can you breathe atomic fire?

 

Tick: er, no

 

Interviewer: Can you destroy the earth?

 

Tick: My GOD I hope not! That's where I keep all my stuff!

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Let's look at this logically, and with the obvious caveat that we're dealing with a game system and not the real world, so I'll argue from a system perspective rather than a real world one. Simply put, the results within the game system do not support exponential increases in damage per d6. Based on exponential increase, 10d6 is 512 times as much damage as 1d6 and 15d6 is 16384 times as much damage as 1d6. Are these numbers supported by results in the game world? Absolutely not. Can anyone honestly show me an example in Hero where 15d6 bounces off an object but 16d6 completely destroy it, as would be the case with a 16d6 attack 32768 times as powerful as 1d6? Do you really think 30d6 is 536,870,912 times as much energy as 1d6?

 

Does each +1 of PD or ED make someone twice as tough in game terms, therefore making someone with 25 PD 3275.8 times as difficult to hurt as a character with 10 PD? Is a character with 30 PD (Over 500 million times as tough as 1 PD if figured exponentially) really 320 times more difficult to injure than one with a 25 PD? Of course not. The game mechanics do not reflect any such disparity in difficulty to injure another character. 30 PD is tougher than 25 PD and way tougher than 10 PD, but the corresponding toughness is not exponential.

 

And of course extra BODY would also apply: Each +1 BODY should make something twice as difficult to destroy if damage is exponential, but does anyone here think a character with 10 BODY is only half as difficult to mortally wound as one with 11 BODY? As someone pointed out above, 15d6 can't even be guaranteed to kill a normal. A martial artist hitting for 10d6 is not hitting for 1/32 as much damage as the team brick with 15d6. It just doesn't work out that way in the game.

 

Therefore it stands to reason, based on the way the Hero system works within the game itself, that each d6 is only an undefined but incremental amount of additional damage, not twice as much. Exponential looks good at first glance, but not when you actually do the numbers. The damage/defense scale may not be arithmetic either, but perhaps logarithmic or some other method of scaling. But one thing it is clearly is not is exponential.

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Originally posted by Trebuchet

Let's look at this logically, and with the obvious caveat that we're dealing with a game system and not the real world, so I'll argue from a system perspective rather than a real world one. Simply put, the results within the game system do not support exponential increases in damage per d6. Based on exponential increase, 10d6 is 512 times as much damage as 1d6 and 15d6 is 16384 times as much damage as 1d6. Are these numbers supported by results in the game world? Absolutely not. Can anyone honestly show me an example in Hero where 15d6 bounces off an object but 16d6 completely destroy it, as would be the case with a 16d6 attack 32768 times as powerful as 1d6? Do you really think 30d6 is 536,870,912 times as much energy as 1d6?

 

Does each +1 of PD or ED make someone twice as tough in game terms, therefore making someone with 25 PD 3275.8 times as difficult to hurt as a character with 10 PD? Is a character with 30 PD (Over 500 million times as tough as 1 PD if figured exponentially) really 320 times more difficult to injure than one with a 25 PD? Of course not. The game mechanics do not reflect any such disparity in difficulty to injure another character. 30 PD is tougher than 25 PD and way tougher than 10 PD, but the corresponding toughness is not exponential.

 

And of course extra BODY would also apply: Each +1 BODY should make something twice as difficult to destroy if damage is exponential, but does anyone here think a character with 10 BODY is only half as difficult to mortally wound as one with 11 BODY? As someone pointed out above, 15d6 can't even be guaranteed to kill a normal. A martial artist hitting for 10d6 is not hitting for 1/32 as much damage as the team brick with 15d6. It just doesn't work out that way in the game.

 

Therefore it stands to reason, based on the way the Hero system works within the game itself, that each d6 is only an undefined but incremental amount of additional damage, not twice as much. Exponential looks good at first glance, but not when you actually do the numbers. The damage/defense scale may not be arithmetic either, but perhaps logarithmic or some other method of scaling. But one thing it is clearly is not is exponential.

 

I have two different replies to your post. I cover the first in this post and the second in my next post.

 

This line of discussion started when you replied to Arthur's Post. However, instead of arguing with it, now it seems like you've simply re-stated his original message, only you've added one leap of logic.

Arthur's original quote

However, the geometric damage scale of Hero DOES cause some odd effects, but you have to extend the analysis a bit.

 

Our Hero has 14 BODY. Assume Killing Damage and no resistant defenses. You shoot OH with a 1d KA. It takes four shots to put him at 0 BODY, and four more (a total of eight) to kill him.

 

"That's too many shots!" we cry. Let's use a weapon that does eight times as much damage! However, 8x as much damage from the characters' POV is only 2d or twice as much in points of damage due to the exponential nature of the system.

 

Our Hero is put to zero BODY by two shots, and killed outright by four shots (he's having a rough day). Eight times as much KE, but it takes only half as many shots.

 

You can do a similar analysis of points of BODY, making certain assumptions (IIRC, +2 BODY = x2 mass) and show that also gives counter-intuitive results.

 

Is Hero broken this way? Yes. Is there any game system that doesn't have similar problems? Not that I've ever found.

 

 

Unlike Arthur, you assume that because .50 Cal HMG (3d6 K damage or 9DCs) doesn't play out in the game as 64 times more powerful than a pistol (with 1d6 K damage--or 3 DCs), that it therefore must _not_ be 64 times more powerful. I don't agree with that assumption.

 

The problem is that the HMG *is* 64 times as powerful as a pistol (based on kinetic energy), if the system doesn't reflect this, it just means that the system isn't perfect.

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Originally posted by Trebuchet

Let's look at this logically, and with the obvious caveat that we're dealing with a game system and not the real world, so I'll argue from a system perspective rather than a real world one. Simply put, the results within the game system do not support exponential increases in damage per d6. Based on exponential increase, 10d6 is 512 times as much damage as 1d6 and 15d6 is 16384 times as much damage as 1d6. Are these numbers supported by results in the game world? Absolutely not. Can anyone honestly show me an example in Hero where 15d6 bounces off an object but 16d6 completely destroy it, as would be the case with a 16d6 attack 32768 times as powerful as 1d6? Do you really think 30d6 is 536,870,912 times as much energy as 1d6?

 

 

You have asserted that, although 30d6 is supposedly 500 million times as powerful as 1d6, it just doesn't play out that way in the game (and therefore it must not be 500 million times as powerful).

 

In some cases, you're right. However, in some cases it does play out that way.

 

Imagine two characters shooting at a 12 Def 5 Body Object. The first character has a 30d6 EB and the second character has a 1d6 EB.

 

I ask you: how many times will the guy with the 1d6 EB have to shoot at the object to match the damage done to the object by one shot from the 30d6?

 

According to the system, the 1d6 could not do as much damage to the object with a 500 million shots as one shot of 30d6 would do.

 

In fact, even if the guy with the 1d6 EB took 9,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 shots, he would still not do as much as one 30d6 shot.

 

You simply can't do damage to a 12 Def Object with a 1d6 EB, no matter how many times you shoot it.

 

So I would argue that, in some ways a 30d6 plays out as even more than 500 million times as powerful as 1d6.

 

Just because you can find a few examples where the game system doesn't seem to back up exponential damage does not prove anything. I can find many examples where the system does back up exponential damage.

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Originally posted by Warp9

I have two different replies to your post. I cover the first in this post and the second in my next post.

 

This line of discussion started when you replied to Arthur's Post. However, instead of arguing with it, now it seems like you've simply re-stated his original message, only you've added one leap of logic.

 

 

Unlike Arthur, you assume that because .50 Cal HMG (3d6 K damage or 9DCs) doesn't play out in the game as 64 times more powerful than a pistol (with 1d6 K damage--or 3 DCs), that it therefore must _not_ be 64 times more powerful. I don't agree with that assumption.

 

The problem is that the HMG *is* 64 times as powerful as a pistol (based on kinetic energy), if the system doesn't reflect this, it just means that the system isn't perfect.

 

You assume that 64 x KE = 64 x more lethal.

 

That's not necessarily true.

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Originally posted by Kristopher

Lethality has to come into the equation.

 

Is a 3d6 RKA rifle 64 times more lethal than a 2d6 RKA rifle?

 

Is a 9d6 punch from a super 64 times more lethal than a 6d6 punch?

 

First of all, every DC doubles--so in the examples you gave we'd be talking about a factor of 8 (not 64).

 

Second of all, 2d6RKA and 3d6RKA are both equally lethal to a mouse ;)

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Originally posted by Warp9

The problem is that the HMG *is* 64 times as powerful as a pistol (based on kinetic energy), if the system doesn't reflect this, it just means that the system isn't perfect.

 

The system DOES reflect it, based on each +1 DC being x2 KE (and therefore, twice as powerful).

 

A mathematical model (which this RPG is, like it or not) does not necessarily have to be based on linear math. Math is just a set of rules for manipulating symbols.

 

GURPS uses plain arithmetic: twice as much as 6d is 12d. Take a look at the explosive rules in High-Tech.

 

Hero uses exponents: +1 (or possibly +2) DC is twice as much damage. It is not as clear, since the STR chart and firearm damage imply +1 DC, while the Explosives rules imply +2 DC. However, the fact that it IS exponential when relating game results to real world effects is (or should be) indisputable.

 

Neither way is right or wrong - it is simply two different operational assumptions.

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Originally posted by Arthur

The system DOES reflect it, based on each +1 DC being x2 KE (and therefore, twice as powerful).

 

A mathematical model (which this RPG is, like it or not) does not necessarily have to be based on linear math. Math is just a set of rules for manipulating symbols.

 

GURPS uses plain arithmetic: twice as much as 6d is 12d. Take a look at the explosive rules in High-Tech.

 

Hero uses exponents: +1 (or possibly +2) DC is twice as much damage. It is not as clear, since the STR chart and firearm damage imply +1 DC, while the Explosives rules imply +2 DC. However, the fact that it IS exponential when relating game results to real world effects is (or should be) indisputable.

 

Neither way is right or wrong - it is simply two different operational assumptions.

 

 

1) My reply was to Trebuchet not to you, I was only referencing your post.

 

2) I have ALWAYS been saying that 3d6RKA _is_ 64 times more powerful than a 1d6 RKA.

 

3) when I said: "The HMG *is* 64 times as powerful as a pistol (based on kinetic energy), if the system doesn't reflect this, it just means that the system isn't perfect." I was only acknowledging the fact that, sometimes during game play, 3d6K does not seem 64 times more powerful than 1d6K.

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Originally posted by Warp9

1) My reply was to Trebuchet not to you, I was only referencing your post.

 

OK. Does it matter? That just changes the meaning of my last post from "disputing your point" to "expounding on your point". Either way, I was just trying to clarify things.

 

Not every reply has to be a disagreement. Capish? We cool? You dig? Righto? Check? Indubitably? Unquestionably?

 

2) I have ALWAYS been saying that 3d6RKA _is_ 64 times more powerful than a 1d6 RKA.

 

Ah yes. I see you are one of Us. But I have already said too much...

:)

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Just as a point of order:

 

From a real world perspective an exponential doubling of kinetic energy doesn't necessarily translate to a exponential doubling of damage. There are numerous factors that go into determining the lethality of a wound and kinetic energy is only one of them. As such, using the damage classes of an attack to determine relative kinetic energy is a flawed paradigm.

 

In ballistics we have four basic wound factors:

 

Permanent Cavity (Bullet Size)

Temporary Cavity (Stretching from Kinetic Transfer)

Blood Loss (Placement)

Nevous System Damage (Placement)

 

Permanent cavity damage, blood loss, and nervous system damage can all be increased based on various sizes and innovations related to the bullet in question. For instance, a .45 Golden Sabre round will create a bigger cavity, has a greater chance of inducing blood loss and disrupting nervous function, that a .45 hardball round.

 

Increased kinetic energy does impact temporary cavity, and can, with larger rounds, kill with hydrostatic shock, but in regards to bullets -- size does matter. As does sophistication: a .50 BMG round won't do as much damage to a target as a .50 BMG APEX round will do.

 

The attempt to use DC's to extrapolate kinetic force makes more sense when relating to muscle powered weapons, but there you don't have the issue of temporary cavity. You just have the force of the swing. There are still issues to address in this context, such weapon concept [blade versus bludgeon] and size [claymore versus dirk], which will effect wound size and type.

 

The only place kinetic force truly equates to DCs is brute superstrength.

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Originally posted by D-Man

Just as a point of order:

 

From a real world perspective an exponential doubling of kinetic energy doesn't necessarily translate to a exponential doubling of damage. There are numerous factors that go into determining the lethality of a wound and kinetic energy is only one of them. As such, using the damage classes of an attack to determine relative kinetic energy is a flawed paradigm.

 

In ballistics we have four basic wound factors:

 

Permanent Cavity (Bullet Size)

Temporary Cavity (Stretching from Kinetic Transfer)

Blood Loss (Placement)

Nevous System Damage (Placement)

 

Permanent cavity damage, blood loss, and nervous system damage can all be increased based on various sizes and innovations related to the bullet in question. For instance, a .45 Golden Sabre round will create a bigger cavity, has a greater chance of inducing blood loss and disrupting nervous function, that a .45 hardball round.

 

Increased kinetic energy does impact temporary cavity, and can, with larger rounds, kill with hydrostatic shock, but in regards to bullets -- size does matter. As does sophistication: a .50 BMG round won't do as much damage to a target as a .50 BMG APEX round will do.

 

The attempt to use DC's to extrapolate kinetic force makes more sense when relating to muscle powered weapons, but there you don't have the issue of temporary cavity. You just have the force of the swing. There are still issues to address in this context, such weapon concept [blade versus bludgeon] and size [claymore versus dirk], which will effect wound size and type.

 

The only place kinetic force truly equates to DCs is brute superstrength.

 

Now I would agree that damage on the human body is a complex thing, and I also would agree that there are many ways to measure such damage. However, Hero is a generic system. Body, and Defense, and damage apply to everything in the game Universe. Human bodies, machines, lumps of rock, aliens, and living-metal-mutants, all take damage in basically the same way. Is this absolutely realistic--maybe not--but that is the way a generic game system functions.

 

From a Physics Text

The ability to do work is defined as "energy" and the ability of a particle to do work by virtue of its motion is defined as "kinetic energy".

 

 

To me, the ability of a particle to do "work" on a target object is probably the best general definition of its ability to do damage. Kinetic energy, by its definition, fits that bill.

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Originally posted by Warp9

Now I would agree that damage on the human body is a complex thing, and I also would agree that there are many ways to measure such damage. However, Hero is a generic system. Body, and Defense, and damage apply to everything in the game Universe. Human bodies, machines, lumps of rock, aliens, and living-metal-mutants, all take damage in basically the same way. Is this absolutely realistic--maybe not--but that is the way a generic game system functions.

 

 

 

To me, the ability of a particle to do "work" on a target object is probably the best general definition of its ability to do damage. Kinetic energy, by its definition, fits that bill.

 

I guess my point was that a general rule shouldn't be assumed to apply to every specific case.

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Originally posted by Kristopher

[b

PS: a 3d6 RKA is 3 times as powerful as a 1d6 RKA. [/b]

 

As has already been pointed out, the physics of how a bullet damages a human body is an incredibly complex subject. In fact, the debate is still in progress. Most authorities consider KE to be the main deciding factor, others argue for momentum. I've even seen Momentum Density (momentum per cross-sectional area). Then the type of round has to be taken into account.

 

However, when designing a game system, you pretty much need to simplify a lot. Reverse-engineering shows that +1 DC = x2 KE holds to a high degree of correlation - more than enough for a game construct.

 

P.S. Go to the local gun store and declare in a loud voice that you think a .50 BMG round is three times as powerful as a .22. Let me know how it goes, if they can catch their breath after all the laughing.

 

3 times as many points in the game is just that: 3 times as many points. When the points are exponents, it's not a simple linear relationship to attack power.

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Originally posted by Arthur

As has already been pointed out, the physics of how a bullet damages a human body is an incredibly complex subject. In fact, the debate is still in progress. Most authorities consider KE to be the main deciding factor, others argue for momentum. I've even seen Momentum Density (momentum per cross-sectional area). Then the type of round has to be taken into account.

 

However, when designing a game system, you pretty much need to simplify a lot. Reverse-engineering shows that +1 DC = x2 KE holds to a high degree of correlation - more than enough for a game construct.

 

P.S. Go to the local gun store and declare in a loud voice that you think a .50 BMG round is three times as powerful as a .22. Let me know how it goes, if they can catch their breath after all the laughing.

 

3 times as many points in the game is just that: 3 times as many points. When the points are exponents, it's not a simple linear relationship to attack power.

 

I seem to recall being the one to point out that a .50BMG has woefully underpowered in FRED, having not seen the errata that changed it. 3d6 is *closer* to acurate.

 

Anyway, IMO, trying to equate DCs to KE is rather pointless. 3d6 really is 3 times as expensive and 3 times as powerful as 1d6. The minimum, average, and maximum damage are all three times greater. The relationship between Active Point cost and each of those numbers is linear, as well. For KAs, every 15 points gets you 1 min, 3.5 average, and 6 max BODY on the damage roll.

 

Where things get complicated is here: how is a certain number of dice / amount of damage likely to interact with the typical levels of defenses, STUN, and BODY in a particular campaign. 3d6 RKA is brutal in most heroic campaigns, but many supers aren't going to be that frightened by it.

 

What matters most isn't "What's the KE I'm trying to represent with this power/weapon?" It's, "How lethal / effective is this supposed to be?" One of the reasons bullets are so deadly is that they deliver their KE (and momentum) in a particularly damaging manner. But, I suspect you know that, given the post I'm responding to.

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Originally posted by Kristopher

I seem to recall being the one to point out that a .50BMG has woefully underpowered in FRED, having not seen the errata that changed it. 3d6 is *closer* to acurate.

 

Anyway, IMO, trying to equate DCs to KE is rather pointless. 3d6 really is 3 times as expensive and 3 times as powerful as 1d6. The minimum, average, and maximum damage are all three times greater. The relationship between Active Point cost and each of those numbers is linear, as well. For KAs, every 15 points gets you 1 min, 3.5 average, and 6 max BODY on the damage roll.

 

Where things get complicated is here: how is a certain number of dice / amount of damage likely to interact with the typical levels of defenses, STUN, and BODY in a particular campaign. 3d6 RKA is brutal in most heroic campaigns, but many supers aren't going to be that frightened by it.

 

What matters most isn't "What's the KE I'm trying to represent with this power/weapon?" It's, "How lethal / effective is this supposed to be?" One of the reasons bullets are so deadly is that they deliver their KE (and momentum) in a particularly damaging manner. But, I suspect you know that, given the post I'm responding to.

 

From a physics standpoint, are you arguing that the effect that a bullet has when hitting a chunk of rock is not related to its KE? What is your basis for this assumption?

 

If you don't equate DCs to kinetic energy, what objective standard to you use for translating a real world weapon into Hero terms? How do you determine "how lethal / effective is this supposed to be?"

 

You have stated that "3d6 really is 3 times as expensive and 3 times as powerful as 1d6." That being the case, do you think that a .50 Cal HMG really is 3 times as powerful as a .22 pistol? If not, how much damage should it do?

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