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New Avengers are very Dark Champions


Shaft

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I know nobody likes the way Civil War was handled, but I have to admit, I'm rather pleased that one of the outcomes is the fact that there are more sources for Dark Champions themed heroes.

 

For those of you not in the know, following Captain America's surrender, the current membership of The New Avengers decided not to register and remain underground fugitives. The end result is that the outlaw vigilantes have to use a lot of streetwise knowledge and espionage style tradecraft (and magic courtesy of Dr Strange) to stay out of SHIELD's reach.

 

The team is led by Luke Cage, who has recently just been using his last name as a superhero handle instead of PowerMan. For the first time that I've read, he seems to be truly in his element.

 

Iron Fist is backing him up, and paying the bills for the team. He has semi-legit cover since his status as a metahuman is debatable (and his lawyers are stalling any registration that he would have todo because of his dubious status).

 

SpiderMan has dropped his Peter Parker ID (since it was revealed) and is using his clone's Ben Reilly ID to regain his secret ID (a far more elegant way of rolling back to a Secret ID then, say, having the Spectre erase everyone's mmemory, but I digress). After years of building up respectability, Spidey is on the run from the law again, which I think is truer to the character. I think the character was stagnating as a successul award-winning photographer, and having him start from scratch was a good decision.

 

Wolverine is on the team, and more than any other team member, is in his element. Wolverine's inclusion in numerous other titles reeks of marketing, but this is the first time that I feel that Wolverine belongs on a team.

 

SpiderWoman's inclusion on the team is a good idea too, since she has an extensive espionage background.

 

Echo's ability to learn skills quickly makes her very effective in a Dark Champions settings.

 

I don't know who Ronin is, though my suspicion is that he is Clint Barton- another skills guy who was trained by the Swordsman, oh so long ago. At any rate, it's safe to assume that he is a martial artist of some sort.

 

Dr Strange is thrown in for balance- his mystic resources are needed to plausibly explain the team's ability to stay one step ahead of SHIELD's ubertech. At any rate, despite his power levels, I can see him being a very streetwise character. I susepct his magic will be written up as being more of a powerful "street mage" and less of a dimension hopper as the series continues.

 

I suspect that Dardevil will be a frequent guest star, and possibly the Winter Soldier. And of course, if Steve Rogers ever comes back, I don't see him working with Iron Man...

 

Regardless, this title looks to have a lot of potential. As a Dark Champions GM, the possibilities that this team/title offers is making me look forward to it.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

I know nobody likes the way Civil War was handled, but I have to admit, I'm rather pleased that one of the outcomes is the fact that there are more sources for Dark Champions themed heroes.

 

For those of you not in the know, following Captain America's surrender, the current membership of The New Avengers decided not to register and remain underground fugitives. The end result is that the outlaw vigilantes have to use a lot of streetwise knowledge and espionage style tradecraft (and magic courtesy of Dr Strange) to stay out of SHIELD's reach.

Okay and here's where I start to have a problem: The most powerful sorcerer in our universe, is a Dark Champions character :nonp:

The team is led by Luke Cage' date=' who has recently just been using his last name as a superhero handle instead of PowerMan. For the first time that I've read, he seems to be truly in his element.[/quote']

The man with the lowest IQ on the team is leading them.

Iron Fist is backing him up' date=' and paying the bills for the team. He has semi-legit cover since his status as a metahuman is debatable (and his lawyers are stalling any registration that he would have todo because of his dubious status).[/quote']

And yet Capt. Amercia who has no real powers was considered a "Superhero".

SpiderMan has dropped his Peter Parker ID (since it was revealed) and is using his clone's Ben Reilly ID to regain his secret ID (a far more elegant way of rolling back to a Secret ID then' date=' say, having the Spectre erase everyone's mmemory, but I digress). After years of building up respectability, Spidey is on the run from the law again, which I think is truer to the character. I think the character was stagnating as a successul award-winning photographer, and having him start from scratch was a good decision.[/quote']

While this does sound promising, is based on the whole "Seven clones of spiderman that could be his child, but is really someone else who could have been bitten by Uncle Ben but wasn't in a different time line" crap they've wrapped around Spiderman.

Wolverine is on the team' date=' and more than any other team member, is in his element. Wolverine's inclusion in numerous other titles reeks of marketing, but this is the first time that I feel that Wolverine belongs on a team.[/quote']

It still screams marketing, Avengers weren't selling so well, let's add the most popluar character we have to the team.

SpiderWoman's inclusion on the team is a good idea too' date=' since she has an extensive espionage background.[/quote']

Today, but what happens when we find out that it's not really SpiderWoman, but one of her seven clones that was bitten by Uncle Ben (the rice guy not Peter's Uncle) in a different time line while eating Rice Crispies in Utah?

Echo's ability to learn skills quickly makes her very effective in a Dark Champions settings.

I don't know who Ronin is' date=' though my suspicion is that he is Clint Barton- another skills guy who was trained by the Swordsman, oh so long ago. [/quote']

Clint Barton is Hawkeye, and he is dead, however She-Hulk is going back in time on a different world where Uncle Ben never exsisted (Peter's Uncle not the rice guy) so couldn't bite SpiderWoman, who never liked Rice Crispies bringing Hawkeye back alive.

At any rate' date=' it's safe to assume that he is a martial artist of some sort.[/quote']

It's also save to assume that he's actually a she, and she is actuall Echo... Unless there is an Echo AND a Ronin then I don't know who the new Ronin is.

Dr Strange is thrown in for balance- his mystic resources are needed to plausibly explain the team's ability to stay one step ahead of SHIELD's ubertech. At any rate' date=' despite his power levels, I can see him being a very streetwise character. I susepct his magic will be written up as being more of a powerful "street mage" and less of a dimension hopper as the series continues.[/quote']

Right because that's where we want the most powerful sorcerer in our universe, as a street mage.

I suspect that Dardevil will be a frequent guest star' date='[/quote']

That's too bad, I like DD.

 

and possibly the Winter Soldier.

Who? Oh that's right Bucky, the guy that was so dead that he was even in Death's Realm, but really couldn't have been there since he was never really dead.

And of course' date=' if Steve Rogers ever comes back, I don't see him working with Iron Man...[/quote']

Not if, WHEN

Regardless' date=' this title looks to have a lot of potential. As a Dark Champions GM, the possibilities that this team/title offers is making me look forward to it.[/quote']I really am glad you enjoy it, and I hope I've made it clear enough that I don't agree. I also hope you don't take this personally, I don't mean it to be an attack on your opinions so much as an attack on how stupid I feel Marvel comics have become.
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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

I really am glad you enjoy it' date=' and I hope I've made it clear enough that I don't agree. I also hope you don't take this personally, I don't mean it to be an attack on your opinions so much as an attack on how stupid I feel Marvel comics have become.[/quote']

 

I was expecting some disagreement when I wrote this. Rest assured that I didn't read this as an attack. A large part of me agrees with you. But another part of me understands the compromises that writers must make, and is willing to give them a fair shot.

 

And, as I said, I kind of like the fact that some of my favorite Marvel characters have a more sincere Dark Champions feel to them, even if the writers failed their sleight of hand roll in their attempts to get the storylines there.

 

Okay and here's where I start to have a problem: The most powerful sorcerer in our universe' date=' is a Dark Champions character :nonp:[/quote']

 

I don't disagree with your skepticism. I'm choosing to view him as a "Buffy-verse" type mage (which does a decent job of mixing Dark Champions with Magic- moreso in Angel).

 

The man with the lowest IQ on the team is leading them.

 

He's written as a pretty smart guy (and not just street smart). Don't assume that because he's a brick that used to dress like a disco stud that he's dumb. Different writers have written him differently, but of late, he has been portrayed as a thinking man.

 

And yet Capt. Amercia who has no real powers was considered a "Superhero"... (Checkmate continues to list numerous inconsistencies in the Marvel Universe, all of which are valid points -Shaft)

 

Yeah, Yeah. I know. There are a lot of inconsistencies. I can't excuse them. However, my view of this is as follows:

 

The Marvel Universe (and DC) develops organically. Dozens of writers with different views spanning 40 years have written these characters (longer in DC). As storylines develop, the universe collapses on itself. The storylines that keep coming out have to be "backwards compatible" with stories written for audiences in a different time. Meanwhile, parts of the intended audience want the characters to adapt to the modern world, while others don't want change at all. And everything is canon. Who's interpretation of Batman is correct? Bob Kane? Adam West? Frank Miller? I like what Frank Miller did with the Batman, but I'm sure that Bob Kane wouldn't have liked it.

 

The classic set ups have been adapted in the Ultimates continuity: Peter Parker is a high school kid, the XMen are still in their teens under Prof X, Cap and Iron Man work side by side with a still living Thor in the Avengers/Ultimates. In "mainline" continuity, they can't pick and choose the good storylines and reinterpret them. The public won't accept the mainline continuity as the primary continuity, so the writers do what they have to do.

 

Civil War was a poorly written crock of excrement, but it served a purpose, which was to revoke the unconditional 18 point Contact: Superhero Community (extremely loyal & friendly, extremely useful skills) on 14- that everyone had after fighting Galactus, a bunch of Secret Wars, the various Kree/Skrull/Brood invasions together, to say nothing of the increasingly common crossovers that only tangle the web moreso.

 

The characters that were meant to be dark & pained/keepin' it real on the street/etc... are now fugitives working outside of the law. The way superhuman registration was handled may be lame, but eventually, it will be absorbed into the massive glut of continuity, and stories with the new cooler set up that are more to readers' taste will develop.

 

The same goes for Heroes that chose the registration side. They may have had their kool-aid spiked by SHIELD to get them that way, but their organizations feel like the bureaucratic nightmare that sanctioned organizations should be. SHIELD and its registered hero teams have a Clancy-esque "government agency" feel to them now because that is what modern audiences like. Modern audiences don't want superheroes getting together at the clubhouse mansion waiting for the supersized monitor to turn on with a call from city hall or the police commisioner. They want grittier organizations with internal strife where half the challenges is persuading the executives in your own organization that a given course of action is the right one. Meanwhile, the unsanctioned organization will have far less bureaucracy, but it will not have the support that a larger bureaucratic oen will have.

 

In a few years from now, Civil War will be a dusty trade that nobody ever rereads, but everyone will have become used to the new set ups, and accepted them. In the meantime, the Marvel Universe has more material for me to get ideas in my Dark Champions game for, and that is more of a motivator for me than some adhesion to an idealised view of a character that will have to change again in a generation.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

I understand where you're coming from, and as much as I hate it, the style has to change to what is popular, I accept that, however grudgingly. The problem I'm having with it though, is why does Winter Solider have to be THE Bucky? Couldn't he have been a different Bucky we never heard about before? I former Capt America hung out to dry by his country? Why does Doctor Strange have to become a Street Mage? Is he the only mage is the Marvel U? If he is (and for the life of me I can't think of a single other good guy mage that lives on earth) doesn't that leave the door for a new character?

 

Right now my biggest complaint: Let death mean something. Name one character in the Marvel Universe besidwes Uncle Ben (he is still dead right?) that has actually stayed dead. I used to be able to say Captain Mar-Vell and Bucky, and lo and behold now they're both back.

 

There's a difference between changing the style of the books, and just creating trash. For example: I hate Charles Dickens style. I absolutely hate reading his works. I would never say what he wrote is trash. The stories are good, I just hate the way he tells them. I hate his style.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

Why does Doctor Strange have to become a Street Mage? Is he the only mage is the Marvel U? If he is (and for the life of me I can't think of a single other good guy mage that lives on earth) doesn't that leave the door for a new character?

 

Well, there are a few street level mages that come to mind; Illyana/Magik (Currently dead, though a version is coming back) comes to mind; On earth, she can do astral projection and a few minor spells, if I recall her writeup correctly. Shaman (also recently deceased) also comes to mind. The Night Man took on some mystical overtones after the Malbu 'verse got (bleep)..I mean, taken over.

 

Almost certainly, Wolverine will become a mage at some point. Why not, he's been everything else...

 

Right now my biggest complaint: Let death mean something. Name one character in the Marvel Universe besides Uncle Ben (he is still dead right?) that has actually stayed dead. I used to be able to say Captain Mar-Vell and Bucky, and lo and behold now they're both back.

Eh, it's not just Marvel. Rather than take the time to build up a new character, market him/her, place them carefully, and let the 'old guard' fade away gracefully, it's easier to keep the originals around, play to the existing fanbase.

 

Which always baffled me. Marvel created some interesting characters, only to fritter them away and sideline them almost as quickly. Arana, Gravity, MC2, the list goes on...

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

Eh, it's not just Marvel. Rather than take the time to build up a new character, market him/her, place them carefully, and let the 'old guard' fade away gracefully, it's easier to keep the originals around, play to the existing fanbase.

 

Which always baffled me. Marvel created some interesting characters, only to fritter them away and sideline them almost as quickly. Arana, Gravity, MC2, the list goes on...

 

It's not that baffling. The audience doesn't care for new characters. If they did Marvel (DC) would flood the market with them. Or at least they don't care enough to let the old guard fade. As it is, I think Marvel is doing an excellent good job of introducing new characters in the last few years.

 

Runaways

Hood

Jessica Jones

Young Avengers

Ant man

Gravity

New Warriors 2.0

Avengers: Initiative (Gauntlet, Cloud Nine)

Echo

Ronin

Layla Miller

Winter Soldier

Sentry

X-9

 

Plus, they are doing a pretty good job of reintroducing older characters.

 

Iron Fist

Luke Cage

Spider-woman

Moon Knight

Agents of Atlas

Loners

Ms. Marvel

Omega Flight

Blade

Black Panther

Nova

 

I haven't seen this many new (or unused) characters being introduced since the 70's.

 

I agree with the assessment on the New Avengers. Although, not technically a dark champions team in power level, they certainly being treated as such in tone and story. It makes for a nice change from the Mighty Avengers.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

And yet Capt. America who has no real powers was considered a "Superhero".

 

Yes, exactly. Basically, Danny Rand is doing what should have been done during the Civil War itself, pursuing legal action to test the law. During the CW miniseries, anyone who tried to not register based on legal technicalities was attacked by the Pro-Reg side and if caught thrown in the Negative Zone without a trial. With the war over, Danny has the opportunity and deep pockets needed to pursue the matter through the courts.

 

Of course, if Iron Fist gets caught and unmasked, then it's all over, because the registration law specifically covers people without actual powers who put on a costume to fight crime.

 

Today, but what happens when we find out that it's not really SpiderWoman, but one of her seven clones that was bitten by Uncle Ben (the rice guy not Peter's Uncle) in a different time line while eating Rice Crispies in Utah?

 

Close--there was a recent miniseries that retconned Spider-Woman's origin (again) to make her even more espionage-oriented.

 

 

Clint Barton is Hawkeye, and he is dead, however She-Hulk is going back in time on a different world where Uncle Ben never exsisted (Peter's Uncle not the rice guy) so couldn't bite SpiderWoman, who never liked Rice Crispies bringing Hawkeye back alive.

 

Clint's officially alive again as Scarlet Witch had second thoughts about killing him and brought him back via House of M.

 

It's also safe to assume that he's actually a she, and she is actuall yEcho... Unless there is an Echo AND a Ronin then I don't know who the new Ronin is.

 

Yes. The New Avengers recruited a new Ronin because the old one (Echo) had been captured and unmasked. I'm hoping it's the current White Tiger, myself.

 

Oh, and the only mage Tony Stark could find that would even consider going up against Dr. Strange was Brother Voodoo. I really want to know what the negotiations were like on that one.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

The problem I'm having with it though' date=' is why does Winter Solider have to be THE Bucky? Couldn't he have been a different Bucky we never heard about before? [/quote']

 

There's some speculation that when the Winter Soldier appeared and Cap used the Cosmic Cube to make him remember who he was, that what in fact happened was that Cap subconsciously used the Cosmic Cube to "remake" the Winter Soldier Bucky.

 

Yeah, it's still weak. For what it's worth, the Winter Soldier has generally been written really well since his appearance.

 

I former Capt America hung out to dry by his country?

 

Steve Rogers' arrest and death would be one of the few events that could have a lasting impact to keep the New Avengers from turning themselves in. Nobody likes the fact that he died, but his unglamourous arrest and death makes him a good martyr for the underground cause and justifies the new set up.

 

Yes, it could have been handled better.

 

Why does Doctor Strange have to become a Street Mage? Is he the only mage is the Marvel U?

 

Dr Strange, for all his history and power, has never caught on with the fans, but his name has recognition. In campaign terms, he's always been a supporting NPC, but never a PC. My belief is that readers previously couldn't really identify with the challenges he faced at the power level where he was formerly written. I think the new direction he is going in acknowledges that he is still the Archmage, er... Sorceror Supreme, but is resetting the metrics for the power of magic in general. A good parrallel would be how Superman was redefined after Crisis- back when he could benchpress the planet with his 250 STR, it was harder to identify with him. Now that he can only benchpress mountains and his STR has been redefined to the ~125 level (this is a wild guess), he's easier to empathize with. In the same way, back when Dr Strange could bring down demon Lords with one Eldritch bolt, it made him less interesting. Now he can still defeat a Demon Lord, but he has to combine his weaker magic with ritual research and straight cunning (also, I suspect that Constantine's appeal may have had an influence on the way Strange is written).

 

At any rate, as I've said, you make a lot of good points. My arguments effectively boils down to "oh, just drink the kool aid and enjoy the lightshow", but another way that I see it is that if Marvel/DC were a campaign, it's like having players who have built up their 350 pt characters to the 2000 pt level, and insist on continuing. Meanwhile the GM still wants to run a supers game and his style has evolved over the years as his influences change, but all his ideas are meant for 350-500 pt characters. I can sympathise with a writer/GM who finds himself bogged down by his past successes.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

I think it's very likely Quesada intends a major power downgrade for Strange; he's mentioned more than once that he doesn't like the power level of the character. Something on the power level of the Ultimate Doctor Strange may be what we end up with.

 

That said, I really don't want to end up with a Street Level Doctor Strange. I liked the full power Sorcerer Supreme. If he's too powerful for street level adventures, tough. He's not John Constantine, never was. If you want a street mage, make one.

 

Reminds me of the choice to strip Wonder Woman of her powers and stick her in a disco spy outfit.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

My arguments effectively boils down to "oh' date=' just drink the kool aid and enjoy the lightshow"....[/quote']

 

My feelings about marvel aside, THAT is an awesome quote, and with your permission I plan on using it in day-to-day conversation should the occasion arise ;)

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

My feelings about marvel aside' date=' THAT is an awesome quote, and with your permission I plan on using it in day-to-day conversation should the occasion arise ;)[/quote']

 

You're welcome to use it. I can't claim it as mine though- I'm sure I overheard it at a recent political fundraiser. ;)

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

I have to agree with Oddhat. Instead of trying to shoehorn Dr. Strange in to a street level campaign, why not let him play with the big boys? People like Silver Surfer, The Watcher, the Celestials. I see the Eternals are trying to make a comeback, throw him in that mix. You have all these high powered beings around, start using them.

"oh, just drink the kool aid and enjoy the lightshow"

Haha, I see what you mean. I guess if you read the story and like it, what else really matters?

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

I have to agree with Oddhat. Instead of trying to shoehorn Dr. Strange in to a street level campaign' date=' why not let him play with the big boys?[/quote']

 

Pure Marketing. Dr Strange already has brand recognition. I suspect that some people will tune in to see how he has been reinvented from his Defender B-list days.

 

This sure is some tasty kool-aid, Mr Quesada. ;)

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

Pure Marketing. Dr Strange already has brand recognition. I suspect that some people will tune in to see how he has been reinvented from his Defender B-list days.

 

This sure is some tasty kool-aid, Mr Quesada. ;)

 

Just today, I considered buying a Marvel TPB in a series I had been following. I noticed they'd changed writers to a guy I'd never heard of, and thought about the pure crap Quesada has been pushing. I didn't order the TPB. I expect a fair number of readers will refrain from sucking down the sewage.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

Instead of trying to shoehorn Dr. Strange in to a street level campaign' date=' why not let him play with the big boys? People like Silver Surfer, The Watcher, the Celestials. I see the Eternals are trying to make a comeback, throw him in that mix. You have all these high powered beings around, start using them.[/quote']

 

Just consider it the Green Arrow effect in reverse. You know, how a guy with a bow can be successful on a team with Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Lantern. I figure it's the same thing. It's not that Dr. Strange isn't still part of the upper echelon, the writers just don't want him always overshadowing everyone. I mean really one of the biggest draws to a team book is to see how the characters relate to each other. If that means temporarily powering down a cool character to fit him into a storyline then I'm okay with it.

 

But I guess, I can see how some people would be upset with it.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

Just consider it the Green Arrow effect in reverse. You know, how a guy with a bow can be successful on a team with Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Lantern. I figure it's the same thing. It's not that Dr. Strange isn't still part of the upper echelon, the writers just don't want him always overshadowing everyone. I mean really one of the biggest draws to a team book is to see how the characters relate to each other. If that means temporarily powering down a cool character to fit him into a storyline then I'm okay with it.

 

But I guess, I can see how some people would be upset with it.

 

To self moderate slightly, I do understand that those who aren't particular fans of the character don't care about seeing him both powered down and dumbed down for the current Marvel line. Doctor Strange was always written with odd power jumps and dives, like any do-everything character, and you can make a fair case that every high power character gets somewhat gimped when put into a team book; a foe that's only a match for the golden age Green Lantern or Flash alone becomes a fair match for the entire JSA when he shows up in the team book, because otherwise you'd need a new, less recognizable bad guy. It's usually bad writing, but it's expected bad writing.

 

I've often said, only half jokingly, that most characters need separate write ups for their team and solo titles.

 

Still, this stinks to me of piss poor characterization and lack of respect for established character back story. Stephen Strange isn't an idiot who leads his friends into a trap that one close look could have unraveled (the faux Steve Rogers in a coma sequence). He goes up against cosmic threats that have had millennia of practice; he doesn't get fooled by Iron Man's plot point technology, despite the upgrades Tony has been given since he turned villain. He battles threats on the Dimension Lord level; he's not a street mage. "Re-imagining" him as such involves exactly the kind of mind set that turned pulp heroes like Nick Carter, Doc Savage and Captain Strange from self made supermen into boring PIs, and look how that turned out for the last generation of superheroes made mundane.

 

We've been through (many) periods before where publishers have decided that what's wrong with Fantasy is that it's too fantastic. It was stupidity then, it's stupidity now. Luckily, it will also pass.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

We've been through (many) periods before where publishers have decided that what's wrong with Fantasy is that it's too fantastic. It was stupidity then' date=' it's stupidity now. Luckily, it will also pass.[/quote']

 

True. But I think the opposite can be said also. Making characters too fantastic can lose people just as quickly. Doctor Strange has never had a long run or a high selling one. I think one of the reasons is because he became too powerful. After you fight multiple cosmic level entity there's really no where to go. Not saying that I want to see him reduced to the level of a card tricks but seeing him struggle against non-cosmic level is a nice change of pace. Like you said it's only temporary anyway. Plus, he's still a far cry from a street mage.

 

And I must be the only person that sees Tony Stark as being more heroic now than before. Not to say he's not a jerk. He still is but I find that makes him more interesting anyway.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

And I must be the only person that sees Tony Stark as being more heroic now than before. Not to say he's not a jerk. He still is but I find that makes him more interesting anyway.

 

The new Tony Stark is a villain who thinks he's doing what needs to be done for a higher cause, as is the new Reed Richards. That's not the same as a Hero. The turning point for Tony was failure to withdraw from the "war" after the death of Bill Foster (the death of a good man and a long time friend of Tony's, caused by Tony's own actions), followed by failure to protect May and MJ Parker, innocents that he had endangered. Heroes may be on opposite sides, but you don't keep the right to the title after the actions Tony has taken.

 

As to the idiocy of the entire Civil War story line, not much more to be said about that, and I don't want to turn this into another "Civil War: Crapfest" thread.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

To self moderate slightly' date=' I do understand that those who aren't particular fans of the character don't care about seeing him both powered down and dumbed down for the current Marvel line.[/quote']

 

For what it's worth, I am sympathetic to the fans of the "classic" Dr Strange. I'm a big fan of the classic Cap- I'd say he is my favorite Marvel character, and the interaction between he and Iron Man was the reason I collected New Avengers when it started two years ago. In my mind, he is still the definitive Avenger, and should be around to lead this new team.

 

And yet, if he's around, all the street characters lose the street cred I like so much. So, yes- I too am conflicted.

 

I've often said, only half jokingly, that most characters need separate write ups for their team and solo titles.

 

That is certainly a problem for people on this forum who are comic fans, isn't it? We all view the comic (or TV, or movie, or books) through the lens of a gamer, where abilities are documented with an agreed upon standard. Stats make sense to us, and those of us who go into other creative fields bring that tendency to create consistent metrics into those fields. Then when we run into other creative works (with different authors who don't neccesarily see eye to eye) that don't have those guidelines consistently in place, it irks us.

 

Still, this stinks to me of piss poor characterization and lack of respect for established character back story. Stephen Strange isn't an idiot who leads his friends into a trap that one close look could have unraveled (the faux Steve Rogers in a coma sequence).

 

To use a gamer analogy again, that situation is very similar to the poor GM who has to run conflicts between PCs. Unless you are playing Paranoia or another intentionally adverserial game, it can get very ugly when PCs are plotting against one another, with players arguing "I wouldn't have fallen for that" as they metagame with overheard knowledge of their opponents' plot.

 

My theory is that Tony Stark's PC is banging the GM. We all know how that can affect the outcome when PC vs PC conflicts arise. ;)

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

The new Tony Stark is a villain who thinks he's doing what needs to be done for a higher cause' date=' as is the new Reed Richards. That's not the same as a Hero.[/quote']

 

Actually, everything you said can be applied to all costumed heroes. As soon as they put on a costume they are basically saying that they are above the law and are working for a higher cause. They become super powered vigilantes.

 

See, one of the things I did like about Civil War was that it not only changed the MU but challenged certain notions of the genre. The idea that superheros should work outside of the law is so ingrained that nobody sees it as wrong. Its been a cornerstone of the genre since it's conception. One of the hold overs from it's pulp roots. However, if you ever look at it from a logical (well story logic ;)) standpoint it's illegal. One of the main principles of this country is that no man is above the law. That holds true regardless of ability or title. Stark realized this and was trying to give his friends an intervention.

 

The turning point for Tony was failure to withdraw from the "war" after the death of Bill Foster (the death of a good man and a long time friend of Tony's, caused by Tony's own actions), followed by failure to protect May and MJ Parker, innocents that he had endangered. Heroes may be on opposite sides, but you don't keep the right to the title after the actions Tony has taken.

 

He couldn't withdraw from the war. He understood that he was the only thing keeping Shield at bay. He was the reason that Cap and his group was offered amnesty in the first place. An offer they turned down by attacking first. They didn't have to start the "war". So he fought his friends to save them knowing full well that he would be treated as a pariah. That's hardly villainous.

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Re: New Avengers are very Dark Champions

 

Actually' date=' everything you said can be applied to all costumed heroes. As soon as they put on a costume they are basically saying that they are above the law and are working for a higher cause. They become super powered vigilantes.[/quote']

 

Depends on how you want to spin it. Putting on a costume and fighting crime is a genre convention that has lasted just under seventy years. That in the real world it would equal vigilantism only means something when you start applying real world standards to a fictional genre.

 

See, one of the things I did like about Civil War was that it not only changed the MU but challenged certain notions of the genre.

 

Te same "challenges" were issued by Moore, Miller and Veitch over twenty years ago, and by Farmer and other science fiction writers twenty years and more before that. Hell, they were present in Wylie's Gladiator in 1930. I don't need a course on deconstruction of the genre, and the genre doesn't need further de-mythification. There comes a point when you have to accept the genre you're working in and just try to tell a good story.

 

When an idea (those who take the law into their own hands are vigilantes by out of genre standards) has been kicking around for seven decades and more, passing it off as something new doesn't really wash.

 

That's hardly villainous.

His creation murdered a hero, while Tony was attempting to imprison without trial and impress against their will into lifetime indenture men who had repeatedly saved the world. That is villainous, and it's not a hard distinction to make.

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