6th Edition Hero System

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

 

One of the things I've noticed is that simpler characters in Hero are better "Developed." That is, they get more plots, the characters are more interesting to roleplay with, etc, because the GM and the Player both are not thinking about the sheet.

 

I've found just the opposite - I play better, and get GMed better with higher point characters with more on the sheet - all the little advantages and limitations that exactly define everything... those characters are better developed for me when I write up backgrounds, and I find them more interesting to play; mostly because in building them, with all the attention I payed to them with the intricate writeups, I find I understand the personalty and the background better.

 

For me, greater detail in actual write ups is greater detail in all aspects of the character

[Guest steamteck]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I've found just the opposite - I play better, and get GMed better with higher point characters with more on the sheet - all the little advantages and limitations that exactly define everything... those characters are better developed for me when I write up backgrounds, and I find them more interesting to play; mostly because in building them, with all the attention I payed to them with the intricate writeups, I find I understand the personalty and the background better.

 

For me, greater detail in actual write ups is greater detail in all aspects of the character

 

I'm with you here. Complex characters my players make practically write many stories by their writeups.more "real" and rich seeming.

[MitchellS]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

The genie left the bottle when Espionage was published' date=' and the bottle was smashed with Fantasy Hero. That was when the Hero designers decided that the same superiority over typical humans did not extend to spy heros, or to fantasy heroes.[/quote']

Yes. That was the point when everything changed.

 

I would summarize MitchellS' position (and apologies for putting words into your mouth, MitchellS) as being that, while the SYSTEM might support universality, the oficial SETTINGS have failed to support that universality in many ways, not the least of which are poor flow of technology and lack of cross-genre comparability.

I believe that's mostly correct. Your eloquence is better then mine. A universal game should be, IMO, universal. It should make logical sense from start to end. If it doesn't make sense from one end to the other then don't call it universal. Call it what it really is: several genre-based games all trying to pretend they're universal, and failing because they really aren't.

 

I see two ways around the problem. Either reconfigure the entire game to one benchmark level or reconfigure each genre to only work with itself. I don't really care which way Hero goes with it. I only know that I don't want my 12d6, 30 resistant defense supers finding it impossible to even scratch a 30 defense, 7d6 rka tank [and getting wiped out when it fires the cannon]; and at the same time I don't want that superhero taking 48 stun due to a lucky roll from a desert eagle pistol.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Wow, I'll take a simply designed character with a good background over a crunchy number ball with a bad background every time.

 

I'm not a fan of reams of advantages and limitations. Keeping it simple will keep the game good. And accessible to a larger customer base.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Wow, I'll take a simply designed character with a good background over a crunchy number ball with a bad background every time.

 

I'm not a fan of reams of advantages and limitations. Keeping it simple will keep the game good. And accessible to a larger customer base.

 

Will it be more profitable? A larger customer base suggests "YES". However, the continuing bucks for gaming companies comes from printing more books, which means supporting material. We all know how well scenario books have performed - sourcebooks are where it's at. And those sopurcebooks always add new optional rules, new abilities, etc., adding complexity to the game.

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Wow, I'll take a simply designed character with a good background over a crunchy number ball with a bad background every time.

 

I'm not a fan of reams of advantages and limitations. Keeping it simple will keep the game good. And accessible to a larger customer base.

Although I am more with you on the general statement underlying on complex versus simple sheets (especially after seeing decades-experienced players make actual mistakes with those complex sheets), the simple sheet/good background, complex sheet/bad background is a false dilemma in that it's not as if it works that way. I've seen complex sheets with great backgrounds as much as I've seen simple sheets with great backgrounds.

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Actually, if one looks at the original Champions, including Enemies, the genie is in the bottle. Superheroic DEX is high compared to normal human DEX. It isn't high compared to DEX in ther genres, because Hero had, at that time, no other genres. It was only Champions. Look to enemies 3 and Stronghammer the Dwarf, who was quite competetive with a superhero, but was ostensibly a fantasy Dwarf plopped into a Supers reality.

 

The genie left the bottle when Espionage was published, and the bottle was smashed with Fantasy Hero. That was when the Hero designers decided that the same superiority over typical humans did not extend to spy heros, or to fantasy heroes.

 

This issue also highlights the debate over "system" vs "setting". The system could quite easily manage a Supers game where a typical to slow Brick has a dex of 8, where an experienced, but not exceptionally fast, Super has a dex of 11 to 14, where fast, skilled Supers have a Dex of 14 to 18, the fast martial artists have DEX of 20 to 23, and the truly superhumanly agile characters - SpiderMan and the Flash - reach the amazing pinnacles of 26 DEX.

 

However, from 1e sample characters in Champions, the characters were drafted with DEX from 18 to 35, not 8 to 26. This choice of DEX benchmark is not the SYSTEM. Drop everyone's DEX by 9, and they will play almost identically compared to one another. All OCV's and DCV's have declined by 3, so the odds of a hit or a miss are unchanged.

 

The choice of DEX benchmark is a SETTING choice. Had the mainstream CU adopted DEX benchmarks 9 points lower, those transplanted Fantasy characters, with their 15 DEX warriors and nimble 20 DEX rogues would fit in just fine, at least on a comparison of DEX levels.

 

I would summarize MitchellS' position (and apologies for putting words into your mouth, MitchellS) as being that, while the SYSTEM might support universality, the oficial SETTINGS have failed to support that universality in many ways, not the least of which are poor flow of technology and lack of cross-genre comparability.

 

Poor flow of technology 30 DEF tanks with 7d6 RKA weapons in the modern setting, with futuristic Star Hero weaponry and force screens falling short of even this comparatively antiquated technolgy. This is exacerbated by 5e's "one timeline" model, which makes it clear that the technology must have stagnated, if not even reversed, for the period of time from now to the far future. New technology is often unreliable - consider early firearms. They were much less effective, and much less reliable, than modern (or even Old West) firearms. Yet they were clearly superior to bows (other than their reload rate). If a tank gun does 7d6 RKA, and tank armor provides 30 DEF, what motivation would there be to develop plasma beam technology when, in its unreliable infancy, it did, say, a 3d6 RKA? What advantage didit have over the conventional weaponry to merit funding the research?

 

Cross-Genre Comparability As MitchellS has noted, the power level of Supers in particular incorporates considerable stat inflation that renders other genre characters uncompetetive. Much of that inflation was not necessary for the genre, but is caused by setting a max-out point for DEX , for example, in most genres at a level considered below average in the Supers genre. If Supers not noted for their agility had DEX levels more comparable with non-supers not noted for their agility, the genre emulation would not suffer (soldiers and agents have little difficulty hitting the low agility Supers in the comics, and the Hordes of Hydra are still a threat to Cap and his cohorts, so they must be able to hit him!) and the minble rogue would still be in at least the high middle of the pack when transplanted to a Supers setting.

 

This loss of comparability also shows in attacks. Are Batman's batarangs or Moon Knight's crescent darts (at least somewhat effective in the comics) really vastly superior to throwing knives? Hawkman has been quite effective for years using medieval weaponry - would ge be so effective if we applied CU levels of typical attack and defense, and used the standard Hero writeups? Many Supers use a sword to reasonable effect - would Fantasy Hero sword stats allow such characters to compete? Who would consider giving Cap or Hawkeye the same defenses as even a powerful Fantasy Hero warrior wearing chain mail armor?

 

Overall The SYSTEM could be used to create a Supers environment where characters designed to these parameters would be effective. But the SETTING designed for Supers in the official Hero System timeline has very different parameters. The superhero setting parameters then get carried over into military hardware, where someone makes the decision that tank armor should be virtually impenetrable to the SETTING's typical Super, and that conventional military weaponry should vastly outpower the attacks of those Supers.

 

We often pay lip service to the idea that "Hero is about more than Supers", and it is. But there is no reason that the SYSTEM can't support multiple genres in a much more universal fashion than it presently does. However, the 5e SETTINGS fail to do so - they set the benchmarks for Supers, and for modern military weapons, too far above the benchmarks set for other genres, so these aspects of the system fall out of step with the other SETTINGS and they become incompatible.

 

Could this be fixed in a new edition? Sure. But it would mean radical changes to the baseline in either the Supers genre, or in most other genres. Is that something the current customer base would buy into, or would the cost of improved compatability (presumably appealing to new blood for Hero) be a loss of much of the old guard?

Given the old guard is so used to tinkering and already has the mental investment in settings they're already running and generally don't see alternative systems nearly as capable of supporting what they do now, I just don't see more than incremental attrition of the old guard for setting or even many other substantial changes.

 

But beyond that, that was really a great post, Hugh, well argued and said.

[OddHat]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Given the old guard is so used to tinkering and already has the mental investment in settings they're already running and generally don't see alternative systems nearly as capable of supporting what they do now, I just don't see more than incremental attrition of the old guard for setting or even many other substantial changes.

 

But beyond that, that was really a great post, Hugh, well argued and said.

 

I dunno. I'm pretty Old Guard, and yet my favorite Supers setting was moved back and forth from GURPS to HERO a few times, with brief stops in my own home brew as well.

 

I agree that Hugh's post hits the nail on the head as far as the DEX and equipment issue is concerned.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Ah, well. I think I get the gist of what's being said here.

 

Talking about changing how the Settings are represented, as an example of each Genre, into cohesion. Meh I could care less. It would be a good exercise is showing how one can use the System to create a comprehensive and complete cross-genre element (a true universal World/Time Line).

 

That's changing setting material. That can change from writer to writer as is right now.

 

The genre books specifically don't need to change their representation as they're discussions on how to go about ways of setting up a Game using the System. Fantasy Hero itself presents multiple ways of doing magic with the Hero System. And Turakian Age, Valdorian Age and Tuala Morn each use their own setup to show examples of how to set up a Fantasy Genre.

 

I think, if anything, the mistake was making them part of a time line - now people expect consistency from beginning to end. Which can be a mistake.

 

Talking about changing the System itself, no way. I like the big book as is.

 

The System can be universal. But it doesn't have to be. You can set it up so the Setting from Fantasy through to Future is consistent internally. Or you could not care because you don't plan on doing cross-genre applications.

 

I think it's a mistake to assume a Universal System means All Settings Are Internally Universal With Each Other. They aren't, it wouldn't make the System Universal, it would make it homogenous to a single Setting Style.

 

Why does it matter if WWII Hero tanks do more dice than Space Hero tank do? Are you planning on crossing the two genre? Then you might want to fix that. If you aren't, it's irrelevant in my opinion.

 

I don't think the setting or "official" material needs to be that coherent. It's not Holy Doctrine. It's just how the designers built it. Adjust to flavor for your needs.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

 

I agree that Hugh's post hits the nail on the head as far as the DEX and equipment issue is concerned.

 

Seconded.

 

Hugh does that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

You know, I just realized another big conceptual difference between how I approach the system and how many others do as well.

 

Up until 5th Edition I didn't own any supplements for Hero. And even under 5th Edition it was out for 3 or so years before I started to buy other books. Under 4th Edition I only owned the Hero System Rules - not even the Champions book, I owned a copy of that years later. And I didn't play before that.

 

So I never had published examples to guide my thinking in what constituted what type of person. I had NCM to guide my thoughts in that over 20 meant you were leaving the realm of Almost All Normals.

 

So I don't have the "stat inflation" or even the conceptual idea that Hero is different genres. To me it's always been a universal set of rules I can use to create what I want when I need it.

 

Perhaps that's why I have trouble seeing what many others who have played longer than I see when I look at Hero.

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

You know, I just realized another big conceptual difference between how I approach the system and how many others do as well.

 

Up until 5th Edition I didn't own any supplements for Hero. And even under 5th Edition it was out for 3 or so years before I started to buy other books. Under 4th Edition I only owned the Hero System Rules - not even the Champions book, I owned a copy of that years later. And I didn't play before that.

 

So I never had published examples to guide my thinking in what constituted what type of person. I had NCM to guide my thoughts in that over 20 meant you were leaving the realm of Almost All Normals.

 

So I don't have the "stat inflation" or even the conceptual idea that Hero is different genres. To me it's always been a universal set of rules I can use to create what I want when I need it.

 

Perhaps that's why I have trouble seeing what many others who have played longer than I see when I look at Hero.

I'm the same as you. The published guidelines have no meaning in my campaigns. PS - except that I think I played from a prior edition, as I was thinking you started around 3rd or 4th? and I have a different view than you on where HERO is, but just mentioning that we have a similar approach towards our settings/campaigns in this way

[JmOz]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I removed this because I was being to harsh, I leave this message so no one lays blame on it being gone on a moderator, who none have commented on it

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

More as an emotional/"feel" comment, while I like that there's a toolkit notion (regardless of my feeling it's not quite true even as it's not quite false, in execution), I really miss that we don't have a fun game like Champions presented for play anymore. I mean that very specifically - I am well aware anyone can "make" Champions or gets it via reading Champions Universe, Champions, and HERO Fifth Edition.

[OddHat]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I'm the same as you. The published guidelines have no meaning in my campaigns.

 

I don't use the published guidelines for most things. Still, there's something to be said for having a single set of stats for a Lion, a Dragon, or a Near Perfect Human, which then can be tweaked for use in a particular game. Same for Iron, Fire, Steel, and other things that an individual GM might not want to bother looking up.

 

I haven't had the problems that a Hero Literalist might run into with cross genre elements; My Fantasy Hero, Pulp Hero, and Super characters are built to my standards, and Sun Koh is just as much a near perfect man in my Fantasy games as he is in my Super games, even if he might not be as much of a threat.

 

If I want a Super who can smash Def 20/30 Tanks and take a hit from a 7d6 KA, I build him that way, with some minimal house rules to simplify the process. That he doesn't match the published CU guidelines for 350 point characters is not my problem.

[Scott Baker]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Hugh - repped for putting together a succinct description of (at least part of) the issue.

 

Scott Baker

[Balabanto]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Hi, Zornwil

 

The original setup for Champions was conceived around the following set of numbers.

 

Starting Hero: 8d6

 

Villain: 10d6

 

Master Villain: 12d6

 

Ultimate Master Villain (Doctor Destroyer): 14d6

 

Now, when 4th Edition came out, this was revised to look like this:

 

Starting Hero: 10d6

 

Villain: 12d6

 

Mighty Villain: 14d6

 

Master Villain (Doctor Destroyer): 14-16d6 (Or so)

 

Now, Let's look at 5th edition

 

Starting Hero: 12d6

 

Villain: 12-14d6

 

Master Villain (Doctor Destroyer): This guy is so powerful he's off the chart. He no longer registers as a deadly opponent that people can fight and drive off. He now registers as a galactic threat. All he has to do is shoot the street, and he creates an 8 Block Crater. It can't even be MEASURED in comparison to a starting character.

 

Too much realism crept into the system. But the problem is, that defenses and attacks didn't scale correctly with the power increase.

 

Every 2 die increase in attacks came with a 3-5 point increase in defenses, so effectively, the characters were balanced within themselves. The DEX genie is a completely different issue from this.

 

But now, the 2 die increase in attacks came WITHOUT the 3-5 point increase in defenses. The scale of the game began to break down.

 

Once you reach 75 points, it's too easy to be point efficient, because everything divides too neatly when you start taking power limitations.

 

Four of the people who play in Legacies are Engineers. With my assistance, they did a bell curve just to examine the effectiveness of 3rd vs 4th vs 5th edition design, vs. the defenses of the average characters for the game.

 

What we found is that in 5th edition, characters get knocked out a LOT more easily, because the increase in attacks didn't coincide with a similar increase in defenses.

 

Plus, the bell curve on RKA became so astoundingly insane compared to energy blast that it became meaningless to take any other power unless you wanted to spread and hit multiple targets.

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Thanks for answering re what you meant, I recall now as well from you referring to it elsewhere, but didn't recognize the term you applied.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Yes. That was the point when everything changed.

 

But Torchwood says that it is in the twenty first century that everything changes....are you saying they've already missed it?

 

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Hugh does a good job of outlining the problem faced by Steve when looking at his universal system.

 

There needs to be some consistency of system and settings if Hero is to be truly universal. Currently the setting standards are dictated by the most popular genre within Hero (supers). Any long standing Hero GM will have no problem changing settings for other genres but the need to change is an entry barrier to new players and GMs. The detail that is necesasry to realism for other genres also clogs the filters for people wanting to play Champions (as was).

 

So what to do? I love the principle of the Big Book - everything is there to do anything I want.

 

Personally I would like to see a new edition use colour simply to indicate the genre that particular rules are most appropriate for. Even if the colour was simply a splash across the title bar.

 

I think Steve goes some way to providing genre advice in teh source books when he goes through the powers etc and their uses within particular genres but this could probably be tightened up and expanded to talk about how to change settings and standards to be appropriate for the settings.

 

It is fine for the main book to have Superhero style settings if this is explicit in the rulebook and there is some pointers to newcomers that they might want to reduce things by a percentage for other genres. his could be made more explicit in rule books.

 

I have no real problem with a main battle tank in the main rulebook having a 7D6K turret weapon and an armoured weapons carrier in Star Hero having a 7D6K particle beam weapon. I would however expect the latter to win any encounter - either because when they meet in a Star Hero scenario for the battle tank to be reduced in power or when they meet in a time rift Gulf War scenario for the Particle Beam weapon to be upgraded.

 

This IS toolkitting but the game is currently lacking the necessary focussed discussion on where the default settings lie and what the game expects of you as GMs and players when sitting down to prepare your game....

 

It would not hurt to have worksheets in the game that ask the questions GMs should naswer before they prepare their first scenario, their first NPC or ask for characters from players...

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Oh yeah - Steve's considerations have to be sound commercially. I think that you can keep all the system information in one place as long as it is clearly labelled fro genre use. With good genre construction advice in the source books they should be even more useful and valuable to have...no need for new rules - just new applications...

[Loxly]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

You know, I just realized another big conceptual difference between how I approach the system and how many others do as well.

 

Up until 5th Edition I didn't own any supplements for Hero. And even under 5th Edition it was out for 3 or so years before I started to buy other books. Under 4th Edition I only owned the Hero System Rules - not even the Champions book, I owned a copy of that years later. And I didn't play before that.

 

So I never had published examples to guide my thinking in what constituted what type of person. I had NCM to guide my thoughts in that over 20 meant you were leaving the realm of Almost All Normals.

 

So I don't have the "stat inflation" or even the conceptual idea that Hero is different genres. To me it's always been a universal set of rules I can use to create what I want when I need it.

 

Perhaps that's why I have trouble seeing what many others who have played longer than I see when I look at Hero.

 

I'm agreeing that it's the "write-ups" that are the problem, not the system ... and I've been playing HERO since '82.

 

If a Tank, an Agent, or a Goblin need to be a threat, it's a threat ... doesn't matter the number of points the characters are built on.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Currently the setting standards are dictated by the most popular genre within Hero (supers).

 

And yet, I don't see that. I don't see settings judged by other setting standards. And I don't look at Hero through the eyes of it being Supers either.

 

Zornwil: I started playing with 4th Ed. I also started with a Fantasy game.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

And yet, I don't see that. I don't see settings judged by other setting standards. And I don't look at Hero through the eyes of it being Supers either.

 

Zornwil: I started playing with 4th Ed. I also started with a Fantasy game.

 

The only reason a battle tank had to be upgraded in the fashion it has been was to make it a credible threat to superhero level characters. Those are the numbers in the main rulebook.

 

As I said, its not explicit that is the driver for setting the numbers where they are and its not necessarily wrong to set them there (they have to be set somewhere) but it would nice for that to be transparent to users of the system. it would make all of the genres more accessible and facilitate the setting of standards in the other genres.

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I think' date=' if anything, the mistake was making them part of a time line - now people expect consistency from beginning to end. Which can be a mistake.[/quote']

 

Especially given the extent of changes between them. In my view, the timeline was an ill-considered move. It could have been done, but there was too much already in place, and too many inconsistencies, in the early products to make the "mega-setting" consistent.

 

Why does it matter if WWII Hero tanks do more dice than Space Hero tank do? Are you planning on crossing the two genre? Then you might want to fix that. If you aren't' date=' it's irrelevant in my opinion.[/quote']

 

I would agree with this except for two things.

 

First is the "mega-setting" which, as noted above, was neither necessary nor well implemented. If they wanted this to work, the design parameters needed to be in place at the outset (ie range of damage for military HW at various stages, so we didn't see a decline from WW II to the Far Future).

 

Second, gamers mine source material. I don't play Sci Fi campaigns. I have no plans to do so. But I did buy Star Hero. Why? To mine it for things usable in Supers. But if these Sci Fi tropes aren't compatible with Supers, the cross-sales potential is reduced. Sure, we can all tinker with the books, but we all operate under time limitations, and something that can be used with minimal or no alteration is more valuable (and thus more likely to sell) than something that requires additional work to customize.