6th Edition Hero System

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

But the problem is, that defenses and attacks didn't scale correctly with the power increase.

 

Every 2 die increase in attacks came with a 3-5 point increase in defenses, so effectively, the characters were balanced within themselves. The DEX genie is a completely different issue from this.

 

But now, the 2 die increase in attacks came WITHOUT the 3-5 point increase in defenses. The scale of the game began to break down.

*********************************************************

What we found is that in 5th edition, characters get knocked out a LOT more easily, because the increase in attacks didn't coincide with a similar increase in defenses.

 

I think this was an intentional decision. Absent any other changes to character design, reducing the Attacks/Defense ratio makes combat quicker because everyone takes more Stun per hit, so less hits to KO. One complaint often levied against Hero (and I don't want to discuss whether it's a fair or accurate criticism - the perception exists regardless) is that combat takes too long, and this would act to speed it up a bit.

 

Also, the KA becomes more effective (compared to a normal attack) in inflicting STUN, on average, the higher defenses rise, and the current ratio is just about right for keeping the KA average below the normal attack average. I'm less certain that was a conscious reason for the shift.

[zornwil]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

And yet, I don't see that. I don't see settings judged by other setting standards. And I don't look at Hero through the eyes of it being Supers either.

 

Zornwil: I started playing with 4th Ed. I also started with a Fantasy game.

That's what I was thinking but I always worry, with all the posters, that I screwed it up, so remained vague!

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

You know, I just realized another big conceptual difference between how I approach the system and how many others do as well.

 

Up until 5th Edition I didn't own any supplements for Hero. And even under 5th Edition it was out for 3 or so years before I started to buy other books. Under 4th Edition I only owned the Hero System Rules - not even the Champions book, I owned a copy of that years later. And I didn't play before that.

 

So I never had published examples to guide my thinking in what constituted what type of person. I had NCM to guide my thoughts in that over 20 meant you were leaving the realm of Almost All Normals.

 

So I don't have the "stat inflation" or even the conceptual idea that Hero is different genres. To me it's always been a universal set of rules I can use to create what I want when I need it.

 

Perhaps that's why I have trouble seeing what many others who have played longer than I see when I look at Hero.

 

5th is also the first version of the rules that I've bought anything but the core rules for. And I've been playing since 1st edition.

 

And I agree with other things you've said. I think I've been arguing a different point than other people in the thread have been. Hero is a universal system. I can, and have, built campaigns in just about any genre you can think of and had them work out quite well.

 

Is the setting material universal? I have no idea. I've never tried using it. I have no real interest in using it as anything but a place to get ideas to build my own games with.

 

The setting is not the system. Are the writeups in one book consistant with or compatible with the writeups in another book? Don't know, don't care. That is setting material and has nothing at all to do with how universal the system itself is.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Second' date=' gamers mine source material. I don't play Sci Fi campaigns. I have no plans to do so. But I did buy Star Hero. Why? [b']To mine it for things usable in Supers[/b]. But if these Sci Fi tropes aren't compatible with Supers, the cross-sales potential is reduced. Sure, we can all tinker with the books, but we all operate under time limitations, and something that can be used with minimal or no alteration is more valuable (and thus more likely to sell) than something that requires additional work to customize.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Why? Star Hero isn't intended to used for supers. It shouldn't be intended to compare to supers. Star Hero is for how to set up science fiction games, it should focus almost completely and only on doing just that - setting up a science fiction game.

 

I don't buy Champions books to mine for ideas in the Sci-Fi or Fantasy game I'm in. They aren't for that. They shouldn't be for that. They are how to use a System to Make A Game. Not how to use the system to make a game in another genre.

 

5th is also the first version of the rules that I've bought anything but the core rules for. And I've been playing since 1st edition.

 

And I agree with other things you've said. I think I've been arguing a different point than other people in the thread have been. Hero is a universal system. I can, and have, built campaigns in just about any genre you can think of and had them work out quite well.

 

Is the setting material universal? I have no idea. I've never tried using it. I have no real interest in using it as anything but a place to get ideas to build my own games with.

 

The setting is not the system. Are the writeups in one book consistant with or compatible with the writeups in another book? Don't know, don't care. That is setting material and has nothing at all to do with how universal the system itself is.

 

This is my point exactly.

 

5th Edition has three levels to it.

 

The System: 5th Edition Rules, I'll include the Ultimate Books here too. This is the foundation.

 

The Genre: Champions, Star Hero, Ninja Hero, Fantasy Hero, Dark Champions, Pulp Hero, Post-Apocalypse Hero. This is the frame and walls.

 

The Game: Champions Universe, Terran Empire, Turakian Age, Valdorian Age, Tuala Morn, Hudson City. This is the interior and furniture.

 

Sure, you can and may often take an item, or trope, or concept from one part and place it in another. But you don't have to.

 

The first part is universal. The second part are guidelines. The third part is what you play.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

 

5th Edition has three levels to it.

 

The System: 5th Edition Rules, I'll include the Ultimate Books here too. This is the foundation.

This is what should not change in 6th, other than minor tweaks.

 

The Genre: Champions, Star Hero, Ninja Hero, Fantasy Hero, Dark Champions, Pulp Hero, Post-Apocalypse Hero. This is the frame and walls.

 

The Game: Champions Universe, Terran Empire, Turakian Age, Valdorian Age, Tuala Morn, Hudson City. This is the interior and furniture.

These can change - but whatever rules are within them should just explinations/examples or uses of things with the Foundation - there shouldn't be a whole lot of new stuff... and they should mesh, at least to an extent.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Why? Star Hero isn't intended to used for supers. It shouldn't be intended to compare to supers. Star Hero is for how to set up science fiction games, it should focus almost completely and only on doing just that - setting up a science fiction game.

 

I don't buy Champions books to mine for ideas in the Sci-Fi or Fantasy game I'm in. They aren't for that. They shouldn't be for that. They are how to use a System to Make A Game. Not how to use the system to make a game in another genre.

 

Science fiction weapons and other equipment; men and ships from the future; alien races - all of these are staples of both Supers and Sci Fi. Search for Lightsaber or Jedi on these forums, and I'll bet you find a decent number of references for Supers, as well as Sci Fi.

 

Now, absent the universality of the system/setting, I would agree there's no reason for anything to fit in with Supers. But importing many sci fi concepts to Supers is already part of the Supers genre, and with a universal system and setting, should be quite easy to do, and makes logical sense, at least to me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Science fiction weapons and other equipment; men and ships from the future; alien races - all of these are staples of both Supers and Sci Fi. Search for Lightsaber or Jedi on these forums, and I'll bet you find a decent number of references for Supers, as well as Sci Fi.

 

Now, absent the universality of the system/setting, I would agree there's no reason for anything to fit in with Supers. But importing many sci fi concepts to Supers is already part of the Supers genre, and with a universal system and setting, should be quite easy to do, and makes logical sense, at least to me.

 

Ok. I can see that.

 

I would say then that effort should go into making Terran Empire (and associated books, Spacer's Toolkit would be the most useful for this to work) fit with the Champions Universe.

 

but the System itself (Core Rules, and even Genre Books) don't need to even pay lip service to this. While it may be common to pull Sci-Fi stuff into a Supers game, Sci-Fi is still a genre unto itself that doesn't need to pay attention to what Supers are doing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

but the System itself (Core Rules' date=' and even Genre Books) don't need to even pay lip service to this. While it may be common to pull Sci-Fi stuff into a Supers game, Sci-Fi is still a genre unto itself that doesn't need to pay attention to what Supers are doing.[/quote']

 

Here, I agree. The System is universal in that the same mechanics work for all genres. The Setting need not be universal, however in choosing to make a universal setting, Hero set the standard that the various settings should have some measure of comparability.

 

Perhaps 6E (to get back to the thread) would best have a meta-setting which evolves reasonably from the distant past to the far future, with cross-genre compatability, and also have settings diconnected from the meta-setting so that not every effort must somehow be slotted into the meta-settings's timeline and parameters.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

and also have settings diconnected from the meta-setting so that not every effort must somehow be slotted into the meta-settings's timeline and parameters.

 

Thank you. The Hero Universe has been a tremendously huge turn-off for me because of this.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

While, I like the idea in concept - and quite frankly I don't use the Hero Time Line, nor do I know anyone who does, I see one little problem.

 

For settings like Tuala Morn where two power levels are presented for play - which one is the official one?

 

A low-level Tuala Morn character is pretty basic Fantasy, a Heroic game.

A high-level Tuala Morn character is a Superheroic character.

Which one is the actual time line?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Thank you. The Hero Universe has been a tremendously huge turn-off for me because of this.

 

The complete over timeline yes, but I loved it in the Star Hero books (if they had only sold better) - you would have had 5 settings book that gave 1000 years of future history. I really liked that.

[Scott Baker]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

While, I like the idea in concept - and quite frankly I don't use the Hero Time Line, nor do I know anyone who does, I see one little problem.

 

For settings like Tuala Morn where two power levels are presented for play - which one is the official one?

 

A low-level Tuala Morn character is pretty basic Fantasy, a Heroic game.

A high-level Tuala Morn character is a Superheroic character.

Which one is the actual time line?

 

That's the old 5th Edition Tuala Morn.

 

Based on the current discussionr, maybe Tuala Morn would be an outside-the-revised-timeline setting. That way it could still have both options and wouldn't impact the other settings.

 

If it still was to be included in such a revised timeline, someone would have to make a choice obviously. No one said such choices would be easy; or popular in this case since some people will prefer low-level TM and other high-level TM.

 

Scott Baker

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

That's the old 5th Edition Tuala Morn.

 

Based on the current discussionr, maybe Tuala Morn would be an outside-the-revised-timeline setting. That way it could still have both options and wouldn't impact the other settings.

 

If it still was to be included in such a revised timeline, someone would have to make a choice obviously. No one said such choices would be easy; or popular in this case since some people will prefer low-level TM and other high-level TM.

 

Scott Baker

 

You know what might work even better?

 

Each setting is presented as the flavor of the setting alone - no need to compare it to other settings. That way a setting can be written to itself for maximum effectiveness.

 

Then - a Timeline Sourcebook, which goes over the "Official Timeline" how it played out, what the official power levels were ("Adjust the Sherman's main gun to 15DCs from 21DCs") and make an effort to create a seamless cross reference of power.

 

This way you can have the Setting Books for what they are - a representation of the intended genre/sub-genre. And sometimes that works to tie them all together into a cohesive whole.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

That's the old 5th Edition Tuala Morn.

 

Based on the current discussionr, maybe Tuala Morn would be an outside-the-revised-timeline setting. That way it could still have both options and wouldn't impact the other settings.

 

If it still was to be included in such a revised timeline, someone would have to make a choice obviously. No one said such choices would be easy; or popular in this case since some people will prefer low-level TM and other high-level TM.

 

Someone needs to make the choice now, or there are two parallel universe Tuala Morns in the current timeline. If it's in the 6e timeline, one of the levels would be the "official in timeline" setting and the other would be the "official outside timeline" setting.

[OddHat]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

While, I like the idea in concept - and quite frankly I don't use the Hero Time Line, nor do I know anyone who does, I see one little problem.

 

For settings like Tuala Morn where two power levels are presented for play - which one is the official one?

 

A low-level Tuala Morn character is pretty basic Fantasy, a Heroic game.

A high-level Tuala Morn character is a Superheroic character.

Which one is the actual time line?

 

For that matter, the PDF Pulp adventures present settings and events that are not part of the official CU Timeline, and some of the powers listed in Pulp HERO exceed the CU benchmark active point limits for starting Pulp Era characters. I take that to mean that the CU Timeline and bench marks are entirely optional, and that Steve and other writers don't feel bound by them when creating material for a given setting; CU Literalists, on the other hand, may find their heads exploding. My recommendation is that we should all carry umbrellas when attending game nights and conventions, just in case.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

For that matter' date=' the PDF Pulp adventures present settings and events that are not part of the official CU Timeline, and some of the powers listed in Pulp HERO exceed the CU benchmark active point limits for starting Pulp Era characters. I take that to mean that the CU Timeline and bench marks are entirely optional, and that Steve and other writers don't feel bound by them when creating material for a given setting; CU Literalists, on the other hand, may find their heads exploding. My recommendation is that we should all carry umbrellas when attending game nights and conventions, just in case.[/quote']

 

This is truth.

 

I wouldn't expect Steve to hold himself to some artificial concepts when trying to faithfully recreate the feel of a particular setting or genre within a setting.

 

Then we'd here nothing but complaints about how the genre isn't done right.

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

While, I like the idea in concept - and quite frankly I don't use the Hero Time Line, nor do I know anyone who does, I see one little problem.

 

For settings like Tuala Morn where two power levels are presented for play - which one is the official one?

 

A low-level Tuala Morn character is pretty basic Fantasy, a Heroic game.

A high-level Tuala Morn character is a Superheroic character.

Which one is the actual time line?

 

My understanding is that Tuala Morn is outside of the CU timeline.

 

Not that I really pay that much attention to those kind of things...

[gojira]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Then - a Timeline Sourcebook' date=' which goes over the "Official Timeline" how it played out, what the official power levels were ("Adjust the Sherman's main gun to 15DCs from 21DCs") and make an effort to create a seamless cross reference of power.[/quote']

 

I would think that a Timeline book that tried to turn everything into one all singing, all dancing world view would be a mistake. But a guide to kit-bashing the Hero system would be good. I think at least some of this information ought to be in the basic genre books themselves. But I can also see your idea for a broader effort too. It might be kind of specialized, but genre hoping does occur in a few types of campaigns.

 

Hmm, maybe for broader interests, Dimensional Travel Hero could present a genre or campaign world build around dimension (and time) hoping. Sliders meets Skeeve meets Time Bandits. Then as a bonus, add the kit bashing rules for various genres interacting with the different genre books.

 

So for example, the basic campaign could be a low-powered super campaign of inter-dimensional troubleshooter who have to preserve existing time-lines and dimensional stability. The bonus section would go into how to do this with Galactic Supers, experienced supers, pulp heroes, fantasy characters, etc. Kind of like a mini genre book.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

My understanding is that Tuala Morn is outside of the CU timeline.

 

Not that I really pay that much attention to those kind of things...

 

It's there after the Cataclysm: 28,000BC to 20,000 BC.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I would think that a Timeline book that tried to turn everything into one all singing, all dancing world view would be a mistake. But a guide to kit-bashing the Hero system would be good. I think at least some of this information ought to be in the basic genre books themselves. But I can also see your idea for a broader effort too. It might be kind of specialized, but genre hoping does occur in a few types of campaigns.

 

Hmm, maybe for broader interests, Dimensional Travel Hero could present a genre or campaign world build around dimension (and time) hoping. Sliders meets Skeeve meets Time Bandits. Then as a bonus, add the kit bashing rules for various genres interacting with the different genre books.

 

So for example, the basic campaign could be a low-powered super campaign of inter-dimensional troubleshooter who have to preserve existing time-lines and dimensional stability. The bonus section would go into how to do this with Galactic Supers, experienced supers, pulp heroes, fantasy characters, etc. Kind of like a mini genre book.

 

That outlines my general idea a little more. Maybe call it Time Travel Hero possibly.

 

The general idea is that the existing Setting Books really exist unto themselves, which I like. I don't need to know how the Turakian Age might interact with Alien Wars.

 

But if I wanted such information a book that outlines Cross Genre Gaming would be pure awesome. Especially since Hero is very capable of doing such a thing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

...

 

But if I wanted such information a book that outlines Cross Genre Gaming would be pure awesome. Especially since Hero is very capable of doing such a thing.

 

Yep. I've been hoping for such a HERO book for years.

[Hierax]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

on EN World jmucchiello had an interesting idea of x4 cost but no Fractions to ease the HERO math stigma (link):

HERO's ratio math is only annoying because it uses fractional fractions. If people don't mind BIG numbers you multiple everything by 4 and start with 1000 point characters instead of 250 point characters. STR costs 4, Dex 12, and Energy Blast is 20 pts per die. All the modifiers are +1, +2, +3, +4, +5 where +4 is the old +1. The ratio formula becomes base points * (4+adds) / (4+lims).

 

So a 4D6 (80) NND (+4) AoE Radius (+4) Only at night (-2) power would cost 80 * 12 / 6 or 160 pts (240 active). (Old system 4D6 (20) NND (+1) AoE Radius (+1) Only at night (-1/2) costs 20 * 3 / 1.5 or 40 pts (60 active)).

 

I bet that would solve most of HERO's "complexity" faults. And that change also makes it possible to rebalance the characteristic better: Str could be 5 or 6 instead of 4. Comeliness and stun would be 2 instead of 1/2. But I've now wandered into HERO forums territory.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

One of the reasons I try to keep characters as simple as possible is to remove the "Barrier to Entry" issues to the maximum possible extent.

 

Usually, when I have new players in my game, I build their first 2-3 characters myself anyway.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

on EN World jmucchiello had an interesting idea of x4 cost but no Fractions to ease the HERO math stigma (link):

 

If that is the Mucchiello I think it is, Joe used to be very active on the old Hero email lists...

 

 

Doc

[Willpower]

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

See' date=' this is a collection of tweaks. Putting these out there without giving the overall philosophy behind the changes isn't, IMHO, helpful. I'd prefer it if people would explain what kinds of changes they want to see, and why, without necessarily going into specifics, except to provide an example.[/quote']

 

Yeah,

 

Because, before you do something like getting rid of killing attacks, you would have to come up with some other way for people to take Body. Cause as it stands, for the average super the ONLY way someone is going to take body is from a killing attack, and probably only a killing attack modified with something like AP, Penetrating or both. (At least, not considerring something like drains and such.) I know, I know, this is a Superhero game, and so Body shouldn't be taken very often, but the Hero System is not actually a Superhero game, it is a universal system that is mainly used for Superheroes, but even given that arguement, maybe death should not happen very often, but it should at least be on the table. And actually if you look at comics these days, Death should actually happen more often than the system currently allows.