Jump to content

6th Edition Hero System


Zed-F

Recommended Posts

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

And actually if you look at comics these days' date=' Death should actually happen more often than the system currently allows.[/quote']

 

This is the common perception, and we get people on the boards saying it all the time, but it isn't true.

 

The Hero system allows death to occur fairly easily. It depends on how the GM sets up his game using the system.

 

In the current books, the suggested numbers aim toward a more cinematic game where death is rarely an unintentional consequence.

 

If the GM keeps defences low and allows hit locations and modifiers to be used then the game gets very bloody very quickly. As a universal system it cannot provide universal guidelines - as a universal system the GM has to make decisions.

 

Personally I would like to see a lot more discussion somewhere on how to modify your game to make it what you want...

 

Doc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 549
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Personally I would like to see a lot more discussion somewhere on how to modify your game to make it what you want...

 

Doc

 

That would be really cool. One of my favorite things that was ever published by HERO was in the Spell Book by Aaron Allston and Mike Nystul. It was the "designing magic systems" section - it goes over every type of power, every lim (or groups of lims), advantages ect, and goes into detail on how it affects the magics system - what requiring it would indicate, what disallowing it would mean. It was really a great guide for getting the feel you want.

 

Something like that, for the system itself, would be in my top 5.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Something else came up in a session of mine the other day.

 

Regarding Enhanced Senses.

 

Players are angry that they can't use their gadget pools to build devices that give everyone IR or UV vision, etc.

 

Personally, I think the current rules are fine, but players everywhere really hate it, so from a marketing standpoint it might be wiser to change it, even if it sucks.

 

Spatial Awareness

 

This sense needs to be unbroken. According to the current text, this sense is automatically indirect, allowing you to locate what's on the other side of walls, etc. This sense should stop where the perception of actual space ends, not continue through every object. This sense is NOT N-Ray vision, however, the current wording of it leads people to believe that it is. Being aware of objects around you is Spatial Awareness. Seeing through objects is N-Ray Vision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Something else came up in a session of mine the other day.

 

Regarding Enhanced Senses.

 

Players are angry that they can't use their gadget pools to build devices that give everyone IR or UV vision, etc.

 

Personally, I think the current rules are fine, but players everywhere really hate it, so from a marketing standpoint it might be wiser to change it, even if it sucks.

 

Spatial Awareness

 

This sense needs to be unbroken. According to the current text, this sense is automatically indirect, allowing you to locate what's on the other side of walls, etc. This sense should stop where the perception of actual space ends, not continue through every object. This sense is NOT N-Ray vision, however, the current wording of it leads people to believe that it is. Being aware of objects around you is Spatial Awareness. Seeing through objects is N-Ray Vision.

 

Most GMs allow Enhanced Senses in Frameworks. In fact - Star Hero recommends it specifically for "sensor arrays" especially the reconfigurable type.

 

 

RE: Spatial Awareness - I disagree completely with limiting it. Add a Limitation "stopped by walls" to simulate the ability to perceive objects in a room. Spatial Awareness as it stands is an excellent way to simulate cosmic and mystic awareness.

 

Besides - you can rebuild it with a Detect if you limit it inherently.

I think your problem is not correctly modeling the SFX, not "broken" Powers. If people are taking Spacial Awareness specifically for the ability to detect objects regardless of walls ask them why.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

on EN World jmucchiello had an interesting idea of x4 cost but no Fractions to ease the HERO math stigma (link):

 

That would also solve the "problems" of a point-based system having half-point cost items (COM and END), as well as the (IMO) somewhat-often-heard "Not enough granularity at the low end" (like the diff. between 2 pt and 3 pt skill lvls).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

.............................

 

Spatial Awareness

 

This sense needs to be unbroken. According to the current text, this sense is automatically indirect, allowing you to locate what's on the other side of walls, etc. This sense should stop where the perception of actual space ends, not continue through every object. This sense is NOT N-Ray vision, however, the current wording of it leads people to believe that it is. Being aware of objects around you is Spatial Awareness. Seeing through objects is N-Ray Vision.

 

I agree in part. Spacial awareness is not built any differently from any other sense. In fact you can use the 'write up' for normal vision, and call it N-Ray vision, or spacial awareness, just by changing what is detected (Hero is oddly silent about whay normal vision DOES detect).

 

To me, the ability to see through walls is rather more useful than the points allow, so I would 'fix' it by having an adder or two:

 

+5 Can sense through defined materials that would normally restrict a sense, without penalty.

+10 Can sense through defined materials that would normally stop a sense, without penalty.

+20 can sense through anything except a defined common, or defined group of uncommon materials without penalty.

 

This allows concepts to be realised, but at an appropriate cost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I agree in part. Spacial awareness is not built any differently from any other sense. In fact you can use the 'write up' for normal vision, and call it N-Ray vision, or spacial awareness, just by changing what is detected (Hero is oddly silent about whay normal vision DOES detect).

 

To me, the ability to see through walls is rather more useful than the points allow, so I would 'fix' it by having an adder or two:

 

+5 Can sense through defined materials that would normally restrict a sense, without penalty.

+10 Can sense through defined materials that would normally stop a sense, without penalty.

+20 can sense through anything except a defined common, or defined group of uncommon materials without penalty.

 

This allows concepts to be realised, but at an appropriate cost.

 

It's 22 Points as is to know there is "an object of this rough shape this far away" and that's it.

 

Spatial Awareness doesn't exactly give you a lot of information. No color. No details. No anything but "square object that way about ten feet."

 

You can't target it with attacks unless they also can bypass barriers in the way. And you can't tell if it has a mind or not (i.e. Mental Powers still need another method of targeting).

 

It really, isn't all that great. It's useful, but I don't see it as a game breaker.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Precisely. With a simpler system, you could leave your laptop at home.

 

The creation of inits for on the fly combatants or when not using a computer takes up valuable time. Even prepared encounters require valuable GM time, especially if he does not have all of the combatants on a computer.

 

It's not a hard concept, it's just a pain in the butt one.

 

I have got to say I'm sticking to 5ER. I held out until this year to buy 5th ed. my players have bought their own books now. It's jammed packed with everything you need to play a game. The types of things I would like to see don't require a new rulebook.

 

As far as the laptop goes. I do bring mine but what I have found is I only use it to look up things in my pdf books. It's a crutch, the game before last I forgot to bring my power cord. My battery isn't strong (it only last an hour.) So I left it turned off except for an occasional look up.

 

I don't even use a spread sheet. I know what my villans speeds and dex are. I just count off phases. The players just say "me" when their phase hits.

 

Instead of a completly new version how about an "Ultimate Optional Rules" book.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I take it you don't run a lot of plots which are mysteries, Ghost Angel?

 

That's where it breaks. Why is Spatial Awareness so special that it gets the +3/4 version of Indirect for Free? That's stupid expensive.

 

For a mere-smear purchasing of Discriminatory, you get to determine where everything is and blow up every single investigation the GM might produce by having infinite ability to follow people.

 

Now, you can always attack the character if they keep doing this, but after a while the player complains and says "Why does everyone always attack me when I follow them around with my spatial awareness?"

 

You couldn't see through walls with it in 4th edition, it was about the same number of points, and it worked fine. So, let's add 100 points to a 4th edition character and figure out about how many points something like this should cost. It winds up being close to 70 5th edition points after you add Discriminatory, 360 degree, and targeting, and INdirect. Now, if you want to pay that much, it's your SHTICK. But if you don't, this power should stop at walls.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Regarding Enhanced Senses.

 

Players are angry that they can't use their gadget pools to build devices that give everyone IR or UV vision, etc.

This is covered by "GM's permission."

 

Spatial Awareness

 

This sense needs to be unbroken. According to the current text, this sense is automatically indirect, allowing you to locate what's on the other side of walls, etc. This sense should stop where the perception of actual space ends, not continue through every object. This sense is NOT N-Ray vision, however, the current wording of it leads people to believe that it is. Being aware of objects around you is Spatial Awareness. Seeing through objects is N-Ray Vision.

This is apparently another change between FREd and 5ER. In FREd (5E, non-revised), there's no mention of Spacial awareness being Indirect or working through walls. Which IMO is how it should be. If you want your SA to be Indirect, then buy it Indirect, or just buy N-Ray with your SA.

 

N-Ray Perception, OTOH, *is* broken, IMO, or at least not built correctly (unless this has also changed in 5ER). It's simply built as a detect, but nothing in the build allows it to go through walls or any other barriers. It should have either Indirect, or its own "through barriers" sense adder.

 

IMO, all senses should have the default rule that they don't sense through certain fairly common and obvious types of barriers. Sight does not perceive through anything opaque, for example. Then allow an "N-ray" adder that replaces the common barrier with an uncommon one (such as lead, gold, and other very dense materials).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

While the points made here are quite subtle concerning senses the fact is that GM Fiat overrides everything. If the book says you can't but it makes sense to the GM then it CAN. If the book allows it but the GM thinks it breaks his game - then it CAN'T.

 

5ER: It's a toolkit - not a religious document.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I take it you don't run a lot of plots which are mysteries' date=' Ghost Angel?[/quote']

 

If that's your criteria I can name a dozen Powers and a dozen more builds that could ruin a Mystery.

 

That's a bad benchmark.

 

That's where it breaks. Why is Spatial Awareness so special that it gets the +3/4 version of Indirect for Free? That's stupid expensive.

 

For a mere-smear purchasing of Discriminatory, you get to determine where everything is and blow up every single investigation the GM might produce by having infinite ability to follow people.

 

Now, you can always attack the character if they keep doing this, but after a while the player complains and says "Why does everyone always attack me when I follow them around with my spatial awareness?"

 

You couldn't see through walls with it in 4th edition, it was about the same number of points, and it worked fine. So, let's add 100 points to a 4th edition character and figure out about how many points something like this should cost. It winds up being close to 70 5th edition points after you add Discriminatory, 360 degree, and targeting, and INdirect. Now, if you want to pay that much, it's your SHTICK. But if you don't, this power should stop at walls.

 

It's built on Detect. Detect is not, by default, stopped by barriers.

 

It's opened ended. That's THE POINT OF THE SYSTEM.

 

Use the Simulated Sense Rule, for instance Touch Spatial Awareness is now stopped by barriers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

While the points made here are quite subtle concerning senses the fact is that GM Fiat overrides everything. If the book says you can't but it makes sense to the GM then it CAN. If the book allows it but the GM thinks it breaks his game - then it CAN'T.

 

5ER: It's a toolkit - not a religious document.

:thumbup: Amen, brother! Amen! :thumbup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I'm not overly fond of the idea of yet another Edition.

 

It was how many years between Champions 4th ED and 5th ED?

 

Hint: Champions, 4th Edition was published in 1989

 

So there were some 13 years between editions?

 

Talk to me again about 6th Ed around 2015! :thumbdown

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I'm not overly fond of the idea of yet another Edition.

 

It was how many years between Champions 4th ED and 5th ED?

 

Hint: Champions, 4th Edition was published in 1989

 

So there were some 13 years between editions?

 

Talk to me again about 6th Ed around 2015! :thumbdown

OTOH, it was how many years between

  • 1st and 2nd edition
  • 2nd and 3rd edition, and
  • 3rd and 4th edition?

The time between the 4th and 5th editions was not deliberate. We should have had a 5th edition of some kind by, what, 1996? HERO grognards, can you verify a time-frame when there was a pretty-much-finished manuscript for the other 5th edition?

 

Though I will say, if HERO 6th were going to end up anything like DnD 3.5, I'd say wait. Personally, I would rather have a humongous tome, possibly even three to four inches thick, where each rule has a note on the effects it causes in the game, each section has the basics from the Ultimate books (full list of maneuvers and the build rules from UMA, detailed expanded STR chart and materials chart from TUB, all the new skills from DC and TUSk, etc etc), with a seriously expanded section on fiddling with the rules to get the effect you want.

 

Basically, I want Super!book, and I'm willing to pay $120 for it. Anyone else?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

It's built on Detect. Detect is not' date=' by default, stopped by barriers.[/quote']

I guess that's another change between 5E and 5ER.

 

But wait, Detect *is* stopped by *any* barrier, by default, since it isn't Ranged by default. So buying Range on a Detect gets you through barriers for free?

 

I guess senses will have to be reworked again in 6ths (or else just go back to 5E unrevised).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I guess that's another change between 5E and 5ER.

 

But wait, Detect *is* stopped by *any* barrier, by default, since it isn't Ranged by default. So buying Range on a Detect gets you through barriers for free?

 

I guess senses will have to be reworked again in 6ths (or else just go back to 5E unrevised).

 

How else would you build a metal detector that can find buried treasure?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

I guess that's another change between 5E and 5ER.

 

But wait, Detect *is* stopped by *any* barrier, by default, since it isn't Ranged by default. So buying Range on a Detect gets you through barriers for free?

 

I guess senses will have to be reworked again in 6ths (or else just go back to 5E unrevised).

 

sigh. no. just no.

 

Proper use of the Simulated Sense Rule will mitigate almost all issues you might have or think you have.

 

Detect itself is a generic all options Perception. Why - because it is unattached to any of the five basic senses.

 

Our sense of sight, touch, and smell are stopped by barriers.

Our sense of hearing is not (reduced maybe, but not stopped).

The Radio group is not (I assume you can get radio reception in a building? I can)

The Hero Mental sense is not (or did you need to buy N-Ray for Mind Scan too?)

And then there's the Mystic Sense Group - this could also disregard intervening barriers.

(Getting across/through/around the barrier to the object - is another thing completely).

 

If you need to build a Detect based on the Hearing Group do you suddenly need to rework your proposed Detect to use it for conversations on the other side of a door?

 

What about Infra-red perception? I know for a fact that it can be used to detect heat sources through barriers by default in the real world.

 

 

Spatial Awareness is no more than a Generic Mechanic. It needs a Special Effect to go with it. What that Special Effect is will determine if it should be left in the default state, Limited, or placed in an existing Sense Group using the Simulated Sense Rules.

 

Perhaps Spatial Awareness is defined as "my nerve endings are so sensitive I can feel objects around a room based on air currents" - Spatial Awareness; Touch Group - now it is blocked by walls.

 

Or - Spatial Awareness is "my minds third eye opening to the world around me" - Spatial Awareness; Mystic Group - possibly left as the default condition.

 

 

The Hero System should always be about creating options - not restricting them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

Not all senses are stopped by the same barriers. You can see through glass but not through cloth. But you can smell through cloth' date=' but not through glass.[/quote']

 

You just answered your own question as to why Detect should not be changed the way you proposed - because Detect is generic and doesn't know what barriers could possibly stop it until you add a Sense to it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

sigh. no. just no.

I'm not sure what you're saying "no" to here. It *is* a change in 5ER - 5E makes no reference to Detecting through barriers by default. All senses have barriers, just like all attacks have defenses, and if you want a particular sense to bypass barriers, you buy N-Ray for that sense.

 

Proper use of the Simulated Sense Rule will mitigate almost all issues you might have or think you have.

Well, at least in FREd, X-Ray Vision (part of the sight group) is bought as a detect, and it's supposed to see through barriers (even though there's nothing in the build that indicates this), even though Sight normally doesn't see through barriers. Was this fixed in 5ER?

 

Detect itself is a generic all options Perception. Why - because it is unattached to any of the five basic senses.

So if I don't attach a detect to any sense group, I get through barriers for free? But if I want to *see* through walls, I'm S.O.L.?

 

Our sense of sight, touch, and smell are stopped by barriers.

Our sense of hearing is not (reduced maybe, but not stopped).

Sure it is. Eventually it is reduced to zero, which is the same as being stopped.

 

The Radio group is not (I assume you can get radio reception in a building? I can)

Depends on what else is in the building. If there's a lot of electronic equipment around, it may interfere (=completely stop) radio reception.

 

The Hero Mental sense is not (or did you need to buy N-Ray for Mind Scan too?)

And then there's the Mystic Sense Group - this could also disregard intervening barriers.

Since neither of those are RW senses, it would be a GM call based on the genre and mileu considerations. After all, that's what aluminum-foil helmets are for - preventing "them" from reading your mind.

 

If you need to build a Detect based on the Hearing Group do you suddenly need to rework your proposed Detect to use it for conversations on the other side of a door?

It depends on what that detect is, what it's intended for. If I want to be able to hear through solid barriers that would block normal hearing, I ought to be able to build that with the HERO rules, right?

 

What about Infra-red perception? I know for a fact that it can be used to detect heat sources through barriers by default in the real world.

Some barriers, yes. As I said before, not all senses have the same barriers. Can you detect, with IR, someone's body heat on the other side of a big wall of ice? Or on the other side of a bonfire?

 

Perhaps Spatial Awareness is defined as "my nerve endings are so sensitive I can feel objects around a room based on air currents" - Spatial Awareness; Touch Group - now it is blocked by walls.

 

Or - Spatial Awareness is "my minds third eye opening to the world around me" - Spatial Awareness; Mystic Group - possibly left as the default condition.

Sounds like you're saying some SFX just get more utility than others, despite the points.

 

The Hero System should always be about creating options - not restricting them.

I'm not restricting any options at all. I'm just saying that more utility should cost more points.

 

The HERO System should always be about getting what you pay for and paying for what you get.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

 

As a note, according to the 5th edition (non revised) rules FAQ, Spatial Awareness, even if bought as part of the Sight group, still can perceive through walls.

 

Here is the full entry:

 

Can N-Ray Perception or Spatial Awareness' date=' if bought for the Sight Group, see through walls?[/b']

 

Yes. Both Senses are built as “Detect Physical Objects.” If they simulate the Sight Group, that means the character can see the wall, but he can also see other normal physical objects out to the Range of his Sight, regardless of intervening objects that would block normal Sight. The description of N-Ray Perception, for example, specifically refers to perceiving through walls. (With N-Ray, you would have to define a reasonably common substance the Sense cannot perceive through.)

PER Roll modifiers that affect the Sight Group may or may not affect one of these Senses, depending on special effects and the situation. The more “physical” a modifier is, the more likely it is to cause difficulties. Ordinary nighttime darkness would probably have little or no effect, since it’s not a physical object. On the other hand, fog is a physical object, and would probably have an effect.

N-Ray Perception and Spatial Awareness cannot ignore the effects of Sense-Affecting Powers. Suppose they’re defined as part of the Sight Group. A Sight Group Flash blinds the character and makes them useless. Darkness to Sight Group blocks them, Invisibility hides a character from them, and Images creates “objects” they think are “real.” To buy a form of N-Ray Perception or Spatial Awareness that wouldn’t be blocked or thwarted by Sense-Affecting Powers this way, you have to buy the Enhanced Sense on its own, without linking it to any Sense Group (even if, as a special effect, you refer to it as being a “vision” or the like). For example, you could buy:

 

N-Ray Vision: Detect Physical Objects (INT Roll), Discriminatory, Range, Sense, Targeting Sense. Total cost: 32 points.

 

That’s a lot more expensive than N-Ray Perception simulating a Sense Group, but it’s also a lot more useful.

 

Of course this isn't overly surprising since all 5th revised is is the 5th edition rules with the then current FAQ integrated...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...