Cool Guns for your Games

[Surrealone]

And yet, not actually silent, heh

Neither is a bow or a crossbow -- the latter of which is what was put forth by you as a an alternative to guns because guns aren't silent.

 

i.e. You're being a bit disingenuous (and apparently arguing for the sake of arguing) to call out the technical lack of silence on the gun unless you also do so for the non-silent alternative you proposed.  (i.e. To avoid implying the crossbow was completely silent.)

 

Note that contextually the gun only needs to be as silent as the alternative you proposed to render the proposed alternative moot.  In today's day and age -- there ARE guns that are quiet enough to do that.  Now comparing WWII guns to the proposed WWII crossbow alternative -- that's a different story. (But you didn't limit it to just WWII guns not being silent -- something which, when pointed out, is a form of me arguing for the sake of arguing, heh!)

[Christopher R Taylor]

No I was just pointing tout that when I said

 

Because as any gun nut knows, a "silenced" gun isn't actually silent.

 

 

It was true.  But for some reason you decided to... claim otherwise?

 

A crossbow (particularly a handbow like that) is significantly quieter than even that super-suppressed gun you linked above.  Barely any sound at all, and basically unnoticed at a distance.  Same with a well-prepared bow.  That's who people use the for a quiet kill.

[megaplayboy]

I'd argue that if the suppressor reduces noise sufficient to significantly reduce the odds of detection, then the weapon has been made "functionally silent". In game terms, if i kill someone inside a hotel room, and nobody outside the room can hear the shot, then the weapon has been made functionally silent. Outdoors, a 30dB reduction in noise is going to greatly reduce the radius of detection.

[Surrealone]

I'd argue that if the suppressor reduces noise sufficient to significantly reduce the odds of detection, then the weapon has been made "functionally silent". In game terms, if i kill someone inside a hotel room, and nobody outside the room can hear the shot, then the weapon has been made functionally silent. Outdoors, a 30dB reduction in noise is going to greatly reduce the radius of detection.

This was precisely my point.  Also Christopher seems to imply I claimed the gun was silent when what I actually said was:

"For comparison, each cycle of the action makes about the same amount of noise a compound bow makes when releasing an arrow -- making it as silent as a bow and/or crossbow ... and probably a LOT quieter than that WWII commando crossbow when you consider the noise and time of re-cocking it (since the full cycle of the M&P 15-22 entails re-charging the weapon)."

 

Apparently he can't be bothered to read ... or he just doesn't remember what he reads.

[Old Man]

 

Calm down, guys. The actual noise made by suppressed weapons varies greatly, from "action cycling" to "you might not have to wear ear protection" depending on the cartridge, the suppressor, and projectile velocity. It doesn't help that they are routinely portrayed incorrectly in media; my favorite was the TV show I saw with the suppressed revolver.

[megaplayboy]

Looks like the typical "silenced" range is 117-140 dB.  140 is still really loud.  The deLisle carbine was only 85dB, firing a subsonic .45 ACP, and the Welrod only 73dB when fired.  That's not "silent", but very quiet as guns go.  I think you could probably still hear 140 dB a quarter mile away, but you might need to be within a block to hear 117 dB.   If you drop a .22LR from 140 to 110 or less, that's probably "close enough for rock and roll".  

[Surrealone]

Per OSHA, sounds louder than 85 dBA may cause damage if you listen for 8 hours or more. For every 5 dB increase in loudness (i.e. for every doubling in loudness), the amount of time you can be 'safely' exposed unprotected is decreased by half. For example, at 95 dBA, you can safely listen for two hours before damaging your hearing.

 

With that in mind, you can 'safely' listen to 115dBA continuously for 7.5 minutes; 120 dBA continuously for 3.75 minutes; 125 dBA continuously for 1.875 minutes; 130 dBA continuously for just under 1 minute (0.9375 min, to be precise); 135 dBA continuously for a bit less than half a minute (0.46875 min, to be precise), and 140 dBA continuously for a bit less than a quarter minute (0.234375 min, to be precise) assuming you don't encounter pain at 140 dBA.  

 

Keep in mind the OSHA 85dBA is relatively conservative ... and that despite this, people with more sensitive hearing will, of course, experience hearing damage at lower thresholds than those with less sensitive hearing.

 

The split-second impulse of a firearm at 140 dBA just isn't as audible or damaging as you suggest. Assuming there's no accompanying supersonic crack (due to use of subsonic ammunition ... or a ported barrel as on the Innovative Arms M&P 15-22 Integral for which I previously provided a youtube video) ... the impulse sound from the firearm will be easily drowned out in a wooded rural environment by highway or gravel road noise, jet engines roaring overhead at 30,000 ft (audible on the ground), the sound of birds/animals, and other normal daytime sounds/activities coupled with the noise-buffering effects of woodlands -- unless you're talking early morning rural stillness/quiet across open plains before even animals tend to be highly active.  In a bustling city like NYC or LA ... you'd probably not even notice a partial-second 140 dBA impulse during the daytime ... or even several of them. (To be fair, you likely also wouldn't notice several 150 or 155 dBA sounds, either ... due to sirens, car horns, yadda yadda.)

 

Here are some common noise levels -- the most damaging of which are problematic largely due to their continuous nature ... meaning long exposure times in most cases.  For proper context, a jet engine is listed at 140 dBA ... but its noise lasts a LOT longer than a firearm impulse and thus, it's generally considered unsafe if unprotected ... while a suppressed firearm impulse is only momentary at 140 dBA and is therefore, generally considered safe if unprotected.

 

Painful

150 dBP = fireworks at 3 feet (impulse noise)

140 dBP = suppressed high-caliber firearm (impulse noise)

140 dBA = jet engine

130 dBA = jackhammer

120 dBA = jet plane takeoff, siren

Extremely Loud

110 dBA = maximum output of some MP3 players, model airplane, chain saw

106 dBA = gas lawn mower, snowblower

100 dBA = hand drill, pneumatic drill

90 dBA = subway, passing motorcycle

Very Loud

80–90 dBA = blow-dryer, kitchen blender, food processor 

Loud (safe for 24 hours or more)

70 dB = busy traffic, vacuum cleaner, alarm clock

Moderate (safe for 24 hours or more)

60 dBA = typical conversation, dishwasher, clothes dryer

50 dBA = moderate rainfall

40 dBA = quiet room

Faint (safe for 24 hours or more)

30 dB = whisper, quiet library

[gewing]

Calm down, guys. The actual noise made by suppressed weapons varies greatly, from "action cycling" to "you might not have to wear ear protection" depending on the cartridge, the suppressor, and projectile velocity. It doesn't help that they are routinely portrayed incorrectly in media; my favorite was the TV show I saw with the suppressed revolver.

The only revolver I can think of that could be successfully suppressed would be the Nagant. I've often wondered how it would work scaled up to accept a serious cartridge.

Thinking more it could also be set up in a revolver to use a Tele-shot style captive piston cartridge. Under current law each round of that would pay a $200 tax stamp however

[gewing]

A few interesting things out of Russia, the nightstick in particular seems appropriate for dark champions, or really any street-level campaign.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/10/24/komoloff-makarov-pistol-laser-grip-shooting-police-baton-interpolitex-2017/1

[megaplayboy]

Per OSHA, sounds louder than 85 dBA may cause damage if you listen for 8 hours or more. For every 5 dB increase in loudness (i.e. for every doubling in loudness), the amount of time you can be 'safely' exposed unprotected is decreased by half. For example, at 95 dBA, you can safely listen for two hours before damaging your hearing.

 

With that in mind, you can 'safely' listen to 115dBA continuously for 7.5 minutes; 120 dBA continuously for 3.75 minutes; 125 dBA continuously for 1.875 minutes; 130 dBA continuously for just under 1 minute (0.9375 min, to be precise); 135 dBA continuously for a bit less than half a minute (0.46875 min, to be precise), and 140 dBA continuously for a bit less than a quarter minute (0.234375 min, to be precise) assuming you don't encounter pain at 140 dBA.  

 

Keep in mind the OSHA 85dBA is relatively conservative ... and that despite this, people with more sensitive hearing will, of course, experience hearing damage at lower thresholds than those with less sensitive hearing.

 

The split-second impulse of a firearm at 140 dBA just isn't as audible or damaging as you suggest. Assuming there's no accompanying supersonic crack (due to use of subsonic ammunition ... or a ported barrel as on the Innovative Arms M&P 15-22 Integral for which I previously provided a youtube video) ... the impulse sound from the firearm will be easily drowned out in a wooded rural environment by highway or gravel road noise, jet engines roaring overhead at 30,000 ft (audible on the ground), the sound of birds/animals, and other normal daytime sounds/activities coupled with the noise-buffering effects of woodlands -- unless you're talking early morning rural stillness/quiet across open plains before even animals tend to be highly active.  In a bustling city like NYC or LA ... you'd probably not even notice a partial-second 140 dBA impulse during the daytime ... or even several of them. (To be fair, you likely also wouldn't notice several 150 or 155 dBA sounds, either ... due to sirens, car horns, yadda yadda.)

 

Here are some common noise levels -- the most damaging of which are problematic largely due to their continuous nature ... meaning long exposure times in most cases.  For proper context, a jet engine is listed at 140 dBA ... but its noise lasts a LOT longer than a firearm impulse and thus, it's generally considered unsafe if unprotected ... while a suppressed firearm impulse is only momentary at 140 dBA and is therefore, generally considered safe if unprotected.

 

Painful

150 dBP = fireworks at 3 feet (impulse noise)

140 dBP = suppressed high-caliber firearm (impulse noise)

140 dBA = jet engine

130 dBA = jackhammer

120 dBA = jet plane takeoff, siren

Extremely Loud

110 dBA = maximum output of some MP3 players, model airplane, chain saw

106 dBA = gas lawn mower, snowblower

100 dBA = hand drill, pneumatic drill

90 dBA = subway, passing motorcycle

Very Loud

80–90 dBA = blow-dryer, kitchen blender, food processor 

Loud (safe for 24 hours or more)

70 dB = busy traffic, vacuum cleaner, alarm clock

Moderate (safe for 24 hours or more)

60 dBA = typical conversation, dishwasher, clothes dryer

50 dBA = moderate rainfall

40 dBA = quiet room

Faint (safe for 24 hours or more)

30 dB = whisper, quiet library

Further up the scale, 180dB will cause permanent hearing loss pretty much immediately.  194dB is the upper bound for noise level in standard atmospheric conditions.  I suspect that's actually "loud enough to kill".  

[gewing]

One of the frequent questions is "what would be appropriate firearms for characters with Growth?"     If someone wants to arm giants in the muzzle loading weapon period, here is an example

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/06/08/iv8888-do-not-get-shot-with-1-pound-slug-from-a-cannon/

This is a gelatin penetration test on a muzzle loading cannon.  It is a 37mm, firing a 1.2 lb minie ball style round.   Muzzle energy is somewhere in the range of 45000 ftlbs !   I would think it might be appropriate as a musket for someone with two levels of growth,  at least potentially.  The barrel length on this one would be abnormally short for someone that size, a longer barrel would increase velocity somewhat.   SO maybe a dragoons carbine?   

Hmm, what would be the appropriate damage for this?

 

Certainly explains why cannons were often "one shot, MANY kills!"

[RDU Neil]

Per OSHA, sounds louder than 85 dBA may cause damage if you listen for 8 hours or more. For every 5 dB increase in loudness (i.e. for every doubling in loudness), the amount of time you can be 'safely' exposed unprotected is decreased by half. For example, at 95 dBA, you can safely listen for two hours before damaging your hearing.

 

With that in mind, you can 'safely' listen to 115dBA continuously for 7.5 minutes; 120 dBA continuously for 3.75 minutes; 125 dBA continuously for 1.875 minutes; 130 dBA continuously for just under 1 minute (0.9375 min, to be precise); 135 dBA continuously for a bit less than half a minute (0.46875 min, to be precise), and 140 dBA continuously for a bit less than a quarter minute (0.234375 min, to be precise) assuming you don't encounter pain at 140 dBA.  

 

Keep in mind the OSHA 85dBA is relatively conservative ... and that despite this, people with more sensitive hearing will, of course, experience hearing damage at lower thresholds than those with less sensitive hearing.

 

The split-second impulse of a firearm at 140 dBA just isn't as audible or damaging as you suggest. Assuming there's no accompanying supersonic crack (due to use of subsonic ammunition ... or a ported barrel as on the Innovative Arms M&P 15-22 Integral for which I previously provided a youtube video) ... the impulse sound from the firearm will be easily drowned out in a wooded rural environment by highway or gravel road noise, jet engines roaring overhead at 30,000 ft (audible on the ground), the sound of birds/animals, and other normal daytime sounds/activities coupled with the noise-buffering effects of woodlands -- unless you're talking early morning rural stillness/quiet across open plains before even animals tend to be highly active.  In a bustling city like NYC or LA ... you'd probably not even notice a partial-second 140 dBA impulse during the daytime ... or even several of them. (To be fair, you likely also wouldn't notice several 150 or 155 dBA sounds, either ... due to sirens, car horns, yadda yadda.)

 

Here are some common noise levels -- the most damaging of which are problematic largely due to their continuous nature ... meaning long exposure times in most cases.  For proper context, a jet engine is listed at 140 dBA ... but its noise lasts a LOT longer than a firearm impulse and thus, it's generally considered unsafe if unprotected ... while a suppressed firearm impulse is only momentary at 140 dBA and is therefore, generally considered safe if unprotected.

 

Painful

150 dBP = fireworks at 3 feet (impulse noise)

140 dBP = suppressed high-caliber firearm (impulse noise)

140 dBA = jet engine

130 dBA = jackhammer

120 dBA = jet plane takeoff, siren

Extremely Loud

110 dBA = maximum output of some MP3 players, model airplane, chain saw

106 dBA = gas lawn mower, snowblower

100 dBA = hand drill, pneumatic drill

90 dBA = subway, passing motorcycle

Very Loud

80–90 dBA = blow-dryer, kitchen blender, food processor 

Loud (safe for 24 hours or more)

70 dB = busy traffic, vacuum cleaner, alarm clock

Moderate (safe for 24 hours or more)

60 dBA = typical conversation, dishwasher, clothes dryer

50 dBA = moderate rainfall

40 dBA = quiet room

Faint (safe for 24 hours or more)

30 dB = whisper, quiet library

 

Question... if 140dB is a "suppressed" high caliber firearm... what is the sound of an un-suppressed shot?  What about a small-caliber firearm?

[gewing]

I saw an article the other day about a suppreddor rated at -26db

[Surrealone]

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 4:58 PM, RDU Neil said:

 

Question... if 140dB is a "suppressed" high caliber firearm... what is the sound of an un-suppressed shot?  What about a small-caliber firearm?

This is typically caliber-dependent.  A high-power rifle (e.g. .308 aka 7.62 NATO) will produce ~167dB unsuppressed (and even louder with a muzzle brake installed).

[Surrealone]

Today I bring you the CAA RONI-STAB non-NFA pistol carbine conversion kit for Glocks. Your mooks will love flying under the NFA radar with this legal upgrade that provides SBR-like capabilities for their Glock pistols with none of the typical SBR hassles.  Need it quickly?  No problem, buy it online and have it shipped to the doorstep!  Need to conceal it?  No problem, as the use of a brace instead of a stock means the pistol remains a legally-concealable pistol (assuming one has a concealed carry permit)! Need to shoulder it in order to take minute-of-opposition shots with a pistol at 50-100 yards? No problem, as the BATFE's recent reversal on the shouldering of braces equating to constructive intent means anyone can misuse the brace all s/he likes without any fear of consequences!

 

The CAA RONI-STAB, RONI and Micro RONI ... for discriminating mooks and their villainous masters who require SBR capabilities from their Glock pistols. (RONI-STAB pictured below; RONI and Micro RONI have a built-in angled grip area ahead of the trigger guard. May not be legal in all states. Not permitted for export. Some assembly required. May cause liberal frustration. Manufacturer not responsible for potential or actual loss of life or blood.)

 

 

Article Link: https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2016/5/25/caa-offers-a-non-nfa-roni-stabilizer/

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well it looks cool

[Lord Liaden]

This seems like something appropriate to transcribe to this thread, since a lot of forumites don't check out the news on the website home page.

 

New Product: Gun Fu PDF

 

What is Gun Fu? Simply put, Gun Fu is the art of the gun — the ability to use firearms with sublime grace and deadly skill in combat. A practitioner of Gun Fu is typically known as a gunman, or if he’s considered a master of the style, a shootist. This 25 page Hero System supplement by famed Dark Champions author Steve Long contains all the Abilities, Charts, and information you will need to make your characters a master of the firing arts!

[Surrealone]

For those of you whose mooks need more firepower, I bring you mini-gun punch without mini-gun fuss.  Meet the Empty Shell Defense XM556, a suitcase-sized, electrically driven "microgun".  Simply equip each of your mooks with the gun and a backpack containing a battery and a crap-ton of belted ammunition, and they'll give the opposing heroes a night to remember.  Weighing in at a paltry 16lbs (unloaded weight) and measuring a mere 22" in length, this microgun is smaller than most shoulderable firearms and comes with a point and click interface (see that red button?!). Availability is limited to your nearest military prototype test range, so consider a quick smash & grab to obtain upgrades for your mooks.

 

The ESD XM556 -- proof that good things DO come in small packages!

 

 

 

[Zeropoint]

It's an adorable little baby BRRRRRT.

[gewing]

the muzzle blast and report on that would be ...   uncomfortable.    barrels that short, not my preference for 5.56.   Now .300 blackout, or one of the pistol calibers...     7.62x25 might be fun... 

[Surrealone]

It apparently has options for 10" and 16" barrels, should longer barrels be desired.

[gewing]

16" would be better for use, imo...   but a pintle mount would handle the recoil better...

 

[Surrealone]

Oh I'm sure they'll come up with pintle mounts and pop-up, rotating turret mounts (for use in, say, the roof of an SUV) for it ... as there's really no market for the gun without accessories that make it versatile.

[Old Man]

I always found that the pop-up turret simply took up too much space and weight to be worth it in the arena. 

[Surrealone]

A pop-up turret only makes sense when you want/need a heavily-armed (and usually armored) vehicle that doesn't freak out drivers of most other vehicles around it.  (Obviously air vehicles can tell.)  Private security organizations are the most likely consumers of such a mount.  Check this video out, especially from 1:19 to 1:48 relative to my remarks.