CrosshairCollie Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Futzing around with a character I'll probably never get to play ... the basic concept is similar to guys like Ryu from Street Fighter, possibly the DBZ fighters (albeit on a non-cosmic level), or even Lucario from Pokemon ... the Ki/Chakra/Hadou/Wave Guidance manipulation power. An idea I had for an attack was to scramble/disrupt the target's ki/etc, as an NND. The hard part is coming up with defenses for it ... the ones that spring to mind are: 1. Lacking a 'Ki flow' (being an elemental, robot, or otherwise being made of nonliving matter) 2. Power Defense I'm not sure this is 'resonably common' enough to defend against, though. Any other ideas anybody has? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Defense is Ki, Chi, whatever Powers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? My first thought was Power Defense. In a MA campaign though Ki Defense might be too common, I would use AVLD instead of NND. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted July 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? My first thought was Power Defense. In a MA campaign though Ki Defense might be too common, I would use AVLD instead of NND. It's just standard superhero (of course, it's just a character that'll sit on my hard drive and never get played ... since nobody around here runs Champions but me). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Given you can make the attack work against power defense for +1 1/2, it sems reasonable that being fully stopped by any power defense would be worth +1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucleon Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Power defense seems it, but Nucleon say: Instead of a NND, have thou considered a (Stun) Drain? Ki powers scream Adjustement powers to Nucleon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Rubber Suit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Rubber Suit? Pretty much. Frankly, I'd be a bit ticked off if I was playing a non-anime PC and had this pulled on me. Power Defence is nice, but it usually gets trimmed once characters are being shoehorned into a particular points total. In the big picture, I would hope/expect this power wasn't horribly overpowered, and then let my brick and his friends deal with it through a combination of toughness and teamwork. And buy 5 points of Power Defence with experience. Aside from that, it's fine. The main problem would be with characters that didn't think "Ki" existed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caris Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Pretty much. Frankly, I'd be a bit ticked off if I was playing a non-anime PC and had this pulled on me. Power Defence is nice, but it usually gets trimmed once characters are being shoehorned into a particular points total. In the big picture, I would hope/expect this power wasn't horribly overpowered, and then let my brick and his friends deal with it through a combination of toughness and teamwork. And buy 5 points of Power Defence with experience. Aside from that, it's fine. The main problem would be with characters that didn't think "Ki" existed. Would you mind expanding some on these comments? This post seems to indicate that you feel the power is inappropriate for a Champions campaign. Is that a correct impression? If so, is it because that the defense is Power Defense, or that it has Ki as a special effect, or both? I really do not understand the finally comment. Why does some other characters lack of belief in "Ki" matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caris Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Futzing around with a character I'll probably never get to play ... the basic concept is similar to guys like Ryu from Street Fighter, possibly the DBZ fighters (albeit on a non-cosmic level), or even Lucario from Pokemon ... the Ki/Chakra/Hadou/Wave Guidance manipulation power. An idea I had for an attack was to scramble/disrupt the target's ki/etc, as an NND. The hard part is coming up with defenses for it ... the ones that spring to mind are: 1. Lacking a 'Ki flow' (being an elemental, robot, or otherwise being made of nonliving matter) 2. Power Defense I'm not sure this is 'resonably common' enough to defend against, though. Any other ideas anybody has? Well, as said Ki based powers is one possiblity, to reflect the target has sufficient control over his Ki to prevent the disruption. Another possibility is mystic denses. Ki is frequently viewed as a magical/spiritual type of power, so I could see in some campaigns where that would mean mystical defenses would be appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Aside from that' date=' it's fine. The main problem would be with characters that didn't think "Ki" existed.[/quote'] My brick frequently attempt to believe eyebeams don't exist. Hasn't stopped one yet from hurting them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Futzing around with a character I'll probably never get to play ... the basic concept is similar to guys like Ryu from Street Fighter, possibly the DBZ fighters (albeit on a non-cosmic level), or even Lucario from Pokemon ... the Ki/Chakra/Hadou/Wave Guidance manipulation power. An idea I had for an attack was to scramble/disrupt the target's ki/etc, as an NND. The hard part is coming up with defenses for it ... the ones that spring to mind are: 1. Lacking a 'Ki flow' (being an elemental, robot, or otherwise being made of nonliving matter) 2. Power Defense I'm not sure this is 'resonably common' enough to defend against, though. Any other ideas anybody has? Power Defense sounds good enough to me. If you think that is not common enough, have it resisted with "Willpower," a sucessful EGO check (perhapse modified for the active points in the attack) and the target resist the ki disruption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Aside from that' date=' it's fine. The main problem would be with characters that didn't think "Ki" existed.[/quote'] I agree I don't see this as a problem. A character who doesn't think magic exists is still affected by powers with a magic special effect. Unless the player puts a limitation on his power that it fails if the target doesn't believe in Ki, or the guy who doesn't believe actually has Ki powers he knows nothing about, and his belief shapes itself into a defense against Ki powers, his disbelief is of no benefit. It may even hurt him - a friendly NPC offers to helo him realigin his Ki to be more resistant to this adversary's manipulations (Power Defrense, Ki Powers only, usable by others). "Ha- superstitious poppycock - there's no such thing as Ki!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comic Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? I'd go with Lack of Weakness, in general, since it's somewhat more 'Martial Artist' seeming to me than Power Defense, and MA's ought to be overall more resistant to Ki powers than the average hero, to my sensibilities. YMMV. But having Chi powers would also be a good defense, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMike Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Power Defense sounds good enough to me. If you think that is not common enough' date=' have it resisted with "Willpower," a sucessful EGO check (perhapse modified for the active points in the attack) and the target resist the ki disruption.[/quote'] I was going to write the exact same solution/answer (with almost the same wording) - spooky.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asperion Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? I believe that since this sounds like the attacker is manipulating another's "life force" (whatever it is called) the best defense would be either of two: either a FF created by the defender's "life force" or lacking a "life force" altogether (ex: robots, elementals, etc). The FF shows that the defender has developed enough mastery over their life force to deflect the attack. The second option represents the fact that these creations lack the necessary life force to manipulate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Power Defense sounds good enough to me. If you think that is not common enough' date=' have it resisted with "Willpower," a sucessful EGO check (perhapse modified for the active points in the attack) and the target resist the ki disruption.[/quote'] I was going to point out that martial arts skills from The Ultimate Martial Artist are often required for the more realistic version of many martial arts. However, they are all Knowledge Skills, which I don't really feel is enough by itself. KS: Karate shouldn't stop a ki attack. Maybe "ki martial arts user" where the possession of a style package plus appropriate skill should count, with about half of the martial arts styles in UMA being deemed appropriate. Also, the Power Skill: Ki Manipulation might work too. So the full list might look something like this: 1. No ki: robot, undead, etc. 2. Power Defense 3. Power Skill: Ki Manipulation 4. About a dozen full martial arts packages, listed here. Just thinking out loud... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? I believe that since this sounds like the attacker is manipulating another's "life force" (whatever it is called) the best defense would be either of two: either a FF created by the defender's "life force" or lacking a "life force" altogether (ex: robots' date=' elementals, etc). The FF shows that the defender has developed enough mastery over their life force to deflect the attack. The second option represents the fact that these creations lack the necessary life force to manipulate.[/quote'] Quoting 5eR, p265: "When a character purchases an NND attack, he must define a reasonably common power or circumstance, or a set of uncommon powers or circumstances, as the defense." Your proposal fails the "reasonably common" test because living characters (the majority of opponents the character having this power will encounter in a mainstream supers setting) will not commonly have an "life force" powers of any kind, including a "life force" based FF. It fails the "set of uncommon" test for similar reasons, as a living target does not have a set of options that could potentially defend against this power, only one. OTOH, if 'life force powers' are common in the setting, then the "reasonably common" test is passed. Now I would see your take on the power as a valid argument that the power should have a limitation "Not against targets lacking a 'life force'", but targets that do have a 'life force' should have a way of defending against it that does not require a rare SFX such as "life force powers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? I really do not understand the finally comment. Why does some other characters lack of belief in "Ki" matter? Iron Fist aside, "Ki" is a subgenre thing which is not appropriate in all settings. Characters don't believe in it because it doesn't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted July 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? If you don't believe something exists, then you won't be prepared against it ... which is one reason why this power needs a fairly easily achievable defense that wouldn't have to be a 'let me slap together something just for this occassion'. It does bear noting that superhero universes tend to absorb and assimilate lots of mythologies and supernatural concepts by virtue of multiple writers and editors. Asgardians, Olympians, American Indian mythos, for example, all exist in Marvel Comics ... along with Atlanteans. You have necromancy, sorcery, and umpteen bazillion other things running amuck. The Champs Universe seems similarly wide open, particularly when you look at the Mystical World. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caris Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Iron Fist aside, "Ki" is a subgenre thing which is not appropriate in all settings. Characters don't believe in it because it doesn't exist. Forgive me, than I think you mis-stated the problem. The problem is not that the character does not believe in the power, but that some of the PCs may not consider the SFX and/or concept appropriate for the game. That is a potential problem with any character and any concept. It is a meta-game issue which really should be dealt on a meta-game level. The players and GMs should agree on what SFX/concepts are appropriate for their game fairly on in the process. Characters who do not believe in something that does not exist in their campaign are really irrelevant to the discussion. If Ki powers do not exist in the campaign world, than the GM should disallow the power. Just as super-science, mutants, magic, aliens, etc. should be disallowed in campaigns where they do not exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Iron Fist aside, "Ki" is a subgenre thing which is not appropriate in all settings. Characters don't believe in it because it doesn't exist. As opposed to laser eyebeams. If the GM says Ki exist, it exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? I was going to write the exact same solution/answer (with almost the same wording) - spooky.... Great minds and all that. Thanks for the rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 Re: 'Ki Disruption' NND -- Defenses? Iron Fist aside, "Ki" is a subgenre thing which is not appropriate in all settings. Characters don't believe in it because it doesn't exist. It's bloody CHAMPIONS. Everything exists until stated otherwise. There are several CU Characters with Ki Powers BTW. And Caris already pointed out the inherent flaw in this line of thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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