FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

[Karmakaze]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Could your character keep buying new spells and never adventure?

 

It was possible to have plotlines that involved things other than hunting down monsters and killing them, so yes. You could earn and spend XP without ever actually having to kill anything.

 

Ars Magica also had some rules for a "troupe-style" play wherin each player had a stable of characters - usually one mage, one "companion" (traditional adventurer) and then "grogs" (redshirts, basically) could be played by anyone. If the storyline involved going out and killing things, the battle mages and combat-oriented companions went out and the non-battle mages were assumed to be staying home and studying or whatever.

[L. Marcus]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

GURPS let you gain XP by studying alone. I see no hindrance for a Hero GM to apply this, either.

[PhilFleischmann]

Count carefully!

 

We are now up to #52. If you have more, please continue from #53. Don't just use the last number refered to in the previous post. It may not be the last number used.

 

For reference, Maccabe's #'s 26-28 will be renumbered 32-34. And subsequent ones will ripple down:

 

Blue Jogger's #32-35 become 35-38.

Chris Goodwin's 36 becomes 39.

Thia Halmades' 36a becomes 39a.

Korvar's 37 becomes 40.

Thia Halmades' 38-40 become 41-43

Curufea's 41 becomes 44

My (PhilFleischmann's) 42-44 become 45-47 (I will edit my post to reflect the new numbers.)

Captain Obvious' 40a and 40a.a become 43a and 43a.a.

Michael Hopcroft's 41-44 become 48-51.

Curufea's 45 becomes 52.

Chris Goodwin's 40b and 40b.a become 43b and 43b.a.

 

I guess there is a lot of math in HERO!

 

OTOH, why am I obsessing about this? What difference does it make? Well someone might want to compile a complete list, and it would be confusing to have different entries with the same number. Plus we wouldn't want people to think HERO players have a hard time counting.

[Curufea]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

I'm not aware of a lot of RPG's that focus mages around study rather than adventure. Perhaps you could name a few?

 

Rolemaster - XP is earned in ways other than killing things.

Fantasy Hero - XP is earned in ways other than killing things.

FUDGE - XP is earned in ways other than killing things.

Amber - XP is earned in ways other than killing things.

Mage - XP is earned in ways other than killing things.

 

This includes 1) good roleplaying and 2) per session.

 

ie in Fantasy Hero "my magic using character would like to research a spell that the king has asked me for in this session" = 1xp for the session +1xp for roleplaying (especially if the player goes into detail about how they study, where they get their books, talking with librarians, haggling with the sellers of books and ingredients, dealing with interruptions of servants, and any number of non-killing-things adventures that can be had).

[teh bunneh]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

2nd edition AD&D had a section in the DM's Guide about awarding XPs for completing story and personal goals, which I really liked. It was a step in the right direction.

 

3.0 also has a section in the DM's Guide that boils down to, "Well, I guess you can award story goals, but you're on your own for how to implement it." It makes it pretty clear that the favored way for characters to advance is to kill stuff; my reading of it is that it passively discourages using story goals and roleplaying as bars for success.

 

Though I admit others may have a different take than me.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Rolemaster - XP is earned in ways other than killing things.

 

Including getting killed yourself -- in RM you gain experience points from dying (which only benefits you if you get resurrected). RM also has a skill that will instantly kill the user if used successfully (for situations where dying is the least unpleasant way out of a dire situation), although how you train imn or practice it is open to question.

 

Which brings up:

 

#53 -- Death is a minor inconvenience at worst for powerful PCs but the end for most NPC grunts.

[Maur]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

2nd edition AD&D had a section in the DM's Guide about awarding XPs for completing story and personal goals, which I really liked. It was a step in the right direction.

 

3.0 also has a section in the DM's Guide that boils down to, "Well, I guess you can award story goals, but you're on your own for how to implement it." It makes it pretty clear that the favored way for characters to advance is to kill stuff; my reading of it is that it passively discourages using story goals and roleplaying as bars for success.

 

Though I admit others may have a different take than me.

 

Successfully negotiating with a noble in the way of your plans (or shifting one from neutral to in favor) was considered a successful completion of a challenge rating equal to the level of the noble swayed (and XP divvied out in the same matter as would after a fight).

[OddHat]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

I'm not aware of a lot of RPG's that focus mages around study rather than adventure. Perhaps you could name a few?

 

Well, there's "XP from means other than killing things" and then there's "XP from a path other than adventure". Almost every system, even D&D, allows XP from means other than killing. I agree that there aren't many that allow much XP from pure study. GURPS had (and presumably still has) a system for it, don't remember many others.

 

Not sure that adventure-centric design can really be seen as a flaw, either, depending on how you look at the roles of XP and Magic in a game.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Well, there's "XP from means other than killing things" and then there's "XP from a path other than adventure". Almost every system, even D&D, allows XP from means other than killing. I agree that there aren't many that allow much XP from pure study. GURPS had (and presumably still has) a system for it, don't remember many others.

 

Not sure that adventure-centric design can really be seen as a flaw, either, depending on how you look at the roles of XP and Magic in a game.

 

One could raise all sorts of design questions concerning Hero with these questions. Most notably: XP earned from adventures can be spent any way you want, even on things that have nothing to do with anything you actually used. And you can, if you want, do things that utterly break your original charatcer concept, like taking your 3 XP from an adventure and putting them into your STR Characteristic so that you're now more "bulked up". 3XP is enough to add 1/2 d6 to your HTH attack damage.

 

3 XP is also sufficient to master a new skill at your characteristic roll level even if it's unrelated to anything you did in the adventure ("We've been in the desert for six weeks, long enough for me to get Diving 13-!" "But we were nowhere near water!" "So? Next time we might be!")

 

Now in Heroic campaigns this raises the potential for real problems as characters gain XP fvrom adventuring, especially if the GM is generous with expeirence.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Rolemaster - XP is earned in ways other than killing things.

Fantasy Hero - XP is earned in ways other than killing things.

FUDGE - XP is earned in ways other than killing things.

Amber - XP is earned in ways other than killing things.

Mage - XP is earned in ways other than killing things.

 

This includes 1) good roleplaying and 2) per session.

 

There is a difference between "you only get xp for killing things" and "you only get xp for adventuring".

 

ie in Fantasy Hero "my magic using character would like to research a spell that the king has asked me for in this session" = 1xp for the session +1xp for roleplaying (especially if the player goes into detail about how they study' date=' where they get their books, talking with librarians, haggling with the sellers of books and ingredients, dealing with interruptions of servants, and any number of non-killing-things adventures that can be had).[/quote']

 

If the character must resolve some difficulty, and play out the challenges, this merits xp, in my mind. However, the cited issue was that you don't get new spells from studying. Let us assume my character belongs to an arcane mystical order. In hero, he has paid for the Contacts and access to a Base with mystical research libraries. Should he now be permitted to gain half a dozen new spells by saying "While you guys go off and rescue the Princess Penelope, I'll stay at the base and study. I want to learn some new spells", or does he need to actually earn xp to spend on those new spells? Yes, it would probably be more realistic (if that term can rationally be applied to learning magic spells) for the mage to gain far more skills in the same time period as the other characters who are too busy seeking the Princess to practice their skills.

 

Unfortunately, too much realism often detracts from enjoyment of the game. I'm reminded of Golden Heroes, which measured time in "Daily Utility Phases" or DUP's. You gained power by using DUP's to practice and hone your skills. The book noted that a player who misses a game session might reasonably argue he had that many more DUP's to hone his skills, meaning you gain power faster if you don't adventure than if you do. The suggestion was that the character should be assumed to have had other matters to deal with that not only prevented him from joining the adventure (ie ate those DUP's) but also cut into the other time that his colleagues had to practice and hone their skills (ie reduce his training DUP's below those of the other characters so not adventuring slows your advancement rather than accelerating it).

 

2nd edition AD&D had a section in the DM's Guide about awarding XPs for completing story and personal goals, which I really liked. It was a step in the right direction.

 

3.0 also has a section in the DM's Guide that boils down to, "Well, I guess you can award story goals, but you're on your own for how to implement it." It makes it pretty clear that the favored way for characters to advance is to kill stuff; my reading of it is that it passively discourages using story goals and roleplaying as bars for success.

 

I think that such awards have significant merit. However, they are also much more difficult to measure objectively and set a balance on. The DM is required to use personal judgment to implement such awards, just assessing "good roleplaying" requires judgment. Often "good roleplaying" gets translated into "most extroverted". A shy character should receive good RP xp for hiding in his room rather than attending the Grand Ball, as the character has been well role played. The fact he misses the entire session, which is one of political intrigue in the Grand Ball, probably means he gets less xp than his fellows.

 

Including getting killed yourself -- in RM you gain experience points from dying (which only benefits you if you get resurrected). RM also has a skill that will instantly kill the user if used successfully (for situations where dying is the least unpleasant way out of a dire situation)' date=' although how you train in or practice it is open to question.[/quote']

 

1e AD&D suggested an award of 1,000 xp for dying, then being raised. If you think awarding xp for killing opponents creates role playing issues, imagine the "good role playing" which would result from a group of munchkins discovering they can kill and raise each other to gain xp...

 

Successfully negotiating with a noble in the way of your plans (or shifting one from neutral to in favor) was considered a successful completion of a challenge rating equal to the level of the noble swayed (and XP divvied out in the same matter as would after a fight).

 

There's a perfect example - and it is d20, by the way. I've also seen games where only killing the opponent gained xp, but by the rules, it is defeating the challenge which is important. Yes, killing the monster defeats it. Depending on the situation, however, one might also defeat it by:

 

- driving it off

- sneaking by it

- negotiating a change in its outlook

- tricking it

- bluffing it

- bribing it

 

We too often blame the game system for poor games, rather than assessing how much blame properly attributes to the players and GM. A lot of "bad games" would be just as bad under any game system, and few "good games" owe nearly as much credit to the game system as they do to the game participants.

 

Well, there's "XP from means other than killing things" and then there's "XP from a path other than adventure". Almost every system, even D&D, allows XP from means other than killing. I agree that there aren't many that allow much XP from pure study. GURPS had (and presumably still has) a system for it, don't remember many others.

 

Not sure that adventure-centric design can really be seen as a flaw, either, depending on how you look at the roles of XP and Magic in a game.

 

If a power gamer can gain more xp from study than from participating in the game, I would suggest that does not make for a good game. The rewards need to link to game play, even if that is not realistic.

 

The problem arises, in my view, when gaining power is viewed as an end, rather than a means. What are you trying to accomplish in the game? If gaining power and skills assists in achieving those goals, then gaining power and skills becomes part of the path towards success. If success is defined as gaining more powers and skills, that makes for a boring game, at least in my view. No matter how that power and skill is gained mechanically.

 

One could raise all sorts of design questions concerning Hero with these questions. Most notably: XP earned from adventures can be spent any way you want, even on things that have nothing to do with anything you actually used. And you can, if you want, do things that utterly break your original character concept, like taking your 3 XP from an adventure and putting them into your STR Characteristic so that you're now more "bulked up". 3XP is enough to add 1/2 d6 to your HTH attack damage.

 

3 XP is also sufficient to master a new skill at your characteristic roll level even if it's unrelated to anything you did in the adventure ("We've been in the desert for six weeks, long enough for me to get Diving 13-!" "But we were nowhere near water!" "So? Next time we might be!")

 

Two things. First, this highlights the issue. Is the Hero system bad because players can spend XP in ways contrary to their character concept, or does the problem rest with the player, rather than the system?

 

Second, I generally assume characters have a life outside the adventure. If our diver has previously noted he was practicing diving in the off hours, why should I be surprised the skill has now been achieved? I had a Champions player once note that no one in the group had any crime-solving skills. Her character registered in some classes in this area, and gradually bought familiarity in a few such skills, buying them up to 11- and then full skills over time. Could the player have bought the full skills? Sure, mechanically. However the player chose to purchase them over time to simulate the period over which they were gained. The credit for this goes to the player using the system to simulate the in-game activity, rather than using the system to maximize the character's abilities.

[OddHat]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

 

If a power gamer can gain more xp from study than from participating in the game, I would suggest that does not make for a good game. The rewards need to link to game play, even if that is not realistic.

 

Exactly so. Which is why I said that I wasn't sure that adventure-centric design could be seen as a flaw.

 

I also don't see it as all that unrealistic, again depending on how magic is viewed in a campaign. Nothing improves language skills faster than a mix of academic study and full immersion, especially in situations where language skills are necessary for survival. If magic is viewed as a skill similar to language acquisition and use, the adventuring Wizard should learn faster and perform better under stress than the ivory tower academic mage.

[Karmakaze]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Now that I think of it, in a Vampire LARP, Tremere (the vampires who do ritual magic) picked up Rituals (basically spells) based on time spent "studying". The deal was, that if you were researching between games, you could get a new spell, but couldn't accomplish other between games goals.

[sbarron]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Exactly so. Which is why I said that I wasn't sure that adventure-centric design could be seen as a flaw.

 

I also don't see it as all that unrealistic, again depending on how magic is viewed in a campaign. Nothing improves language skills faster than a mix of academic study and full immersion, especially in situations where language skills are necessary for survival. If magic is viewed as a skill similar to language acquisition and use, the adventuring Wizard should learn faster and perform better under stress than the ivory tower academic mage.

I go even a little further than this along these lines. To me, the idea that a party of adventurers would go on adventure after adventure with little down time seems improbable in the extreme. So I build in down-time between adventures that doesn't need to played out.

 

Let's say the party takes 3 weeks saving Town A from marauding sea pirates. What are the chances that the next villiage over, Town B, is going to have dragon problems right around the same time? I'd say pretty slim.

 

So, I tell the party that they spend the next several months doing what they want, which could include studying that ancient tome they found. Then maybe 3 months or a year later, that dragon comes calling over in Town B.

 

This is not to say that there must be this down-time. Maybe Town A has major political strife teetering on civil war now that the threat of the pirates is gone? It could happen, but I try to fit in free time when I can. It makes more sense to me that the party takes some time away from "adventuring." And that is the perfect time for them to spend EXP.

[Korvar]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

It was possible to have plotlines that involved things other than hunting down monsters and killing them, so yes. You could earn and spend XP without ever actually having to kill anything.

 

Ars Magica also had some rules for a "troupe-style" play wherin each player had a stable of characters - usually one mage, one "companion" (traditional adventurer) and then "grogs" (redshirts, basically) could be played by anyone. If the storyline involved going out and killing things, the battle mages and combat-oriented companions went out and the non-battle mages were assumed to be staying home and studying or whatever.

 

Also, although you could only gain new spells (and various other things - Ars Magica's downtime system is fantastic if you're a Builder type), there's lots of things that could prompt that person out into the world at large.

 

After a certain point, your studies in the Magical Arts (which determines what spells you can study, create, or learn) requires Magic Stuff, creating magic items will often require Magic Stuff, and certain other things you want to add to your character like Familiars and Apprentices will also require going out and getting them.

 

It's an interesting game, as your Mages need downtime - Seasons of it at a time - in order to progress, but there are still things they can only get through traditional adventures.

 

It's about as different from deeyandee as Hero is, just in a different direction

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

54) The mileu contains scads of different "planes of existence" which anyone can travel to via magic. All of these planes are fully detailed in a concrete and absolute way, and defined in terms of the "prime material plane": it's hotter on this plane, time goes slower here, there's no ground beneath your feet here, this place is filled with water, the air is poisonous here, etc.

 

54a) Some of these planes represent the afterlife - but you can still travel there even if you're alive. And they're all well-defined and concrete, just like the real world. The afterlife is a matter of factual knowledge, rather than faith.

 

54b) Even though the conditions of the afterlife planes are well-known, well-documented, and objectively true, some people still choose to be evil, even though they know for an absolute fact, that it will mean an eternity of torture and pain.

[OddHat]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

 

54b) Even though the conditions of the afterlife planes are well-known, well-documented, and objectively true, some people still choose to be evil, even though they know for an absolute fact, that it will mean an eternity of torture and pain.

 

This one always bugged me. You can fan wank it, but it just doesn't hold up.

 

Also,

 

55) Evil is a club. Evil people of all races and nationalities, as well as monsters, humanoid and non, get along fine, and will cheerfully unite in coalitions of the Evil to fight the Good.

 

55b) Evil is objectively measurable, and if you are Evil, you know it. It doesn't worry you; heck, you're probably proud of it. You put it on your business cards. Dirk Fangbottom: Evil Madman.

[mayapuppies]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

This one always bugged me. You can fan wank it, but it just doesn't hold up.

 

Also,

 

55) Evil is a club. Evil people of all races and nationalities, as well as monsters, humanoid and non, get along fine, and will cheerfully unite in coalitions of the Evil to fight the Good.

 

55b) Evil is objectively measurable, and if you are Evil, you know it. It doesn't worry you; heck, you're probably proud of it. You put it on your business cards. Dirk Fangbottom: Evil Madman.

 

Looking For Group. Love it for the above fact.

[Curufea]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

55c) Entire races are evil. Except for PC races which have a range of 9 simplistically defined moral outlooks on life.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Could your character keep buying new spells and never adventure?

 

You could. We had non-mage characters that did the major of the adventuring (with one or two mages who drew the short straw or who had reasons to adventure) and the rest of the mage would spend seasons either researching new spells, or raising one of the fifteen magic "stats" (5 verbs: Create, Destroy, Detect, Control/Move, Mutate and 10 nouns: Magic, Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Body, Animal, Mind, Image, and Plant). You could also research to make your labs better or write a book to help someone else's research.

 

However, to learn spells quickly, you wanted to increase your magical knowledge, to increase your magical knowledge, you probably wanted a better lab, to get a better lab, you had to build it. It was a vicious cycle. Plus, since everyone is a mage, you had to learn how to share resources and make deals.

[Curufea]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Ars Magica had several interesting mechanics - including that every player had multiple characters - a Mage and usually two Grogs. An adventure would often be just with the grogs, or with the grogs and one mage, while the rest stayed in the chantry (or wherever). I've only played it a couple of times.

 

But let me recommend for any fantasy roleplayers - try several systems, it can do you nothing but good.

[Markdoc]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

IIRC' date=' [i']Ars Magica[/i]. I could be wrong (it's been a long while), but I seem to recall that you weren't allowed to buy new spells/increase old spells unless you spent at least one season in research.

 

Also, Chivalry and Sorcery, where mages got heavily penalised on adventuring experience, but picked up big points for things like "Distilling essence of Mercury".

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Ars Magica had several interesting mechanics - including that every player had multiple characters - a Mage and usually two Grogs. An adventure would often be just with the grogs, or with the grogs and one mage, while the rest stayed in the chantry (or wherever). I've only played it a couple of times.

 

But let me recommend for any fantasy roleplayers - try several systems, it can do you nothing but good.

 

You could. We had non-mage characters that did the major of the adventuring (with one or two mages who drew the short straw or who had reasons to adventure) and the rest of the mage would spend seasons either researching new spells, or raising one of the fifteen magic "stats" (5 verbs: Create, Destroy, Detect, Control/Move, Mutate and 10 nouns: Magic, Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Body, Animal, Mind, Image, and Plant). You could also research to make your labs better or write a book to help someone else's research.

 

However, to learn spells quickly, you wanted to increase your magical knowledge, to increase your magical knowledge, you probably wanted a better lab, to get a better lab, you had to build it. It was a vicious cycle. Plus, since everyone is a mage, you had to learn how to share resources and make deals.

 

Seems to me that this sounds more like playing the adventurers and running bookkeeping for your Contact the wizard, who might occasionally do something to help you out, in the background. The player is still in the adventure, running his character. His character simply isn't the wizard.

[OddHat]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Seems to me that this sounds more like playing the adventurers and running bookkeeping for your Contact the wizard' date=' who might occasionally do something to help you out, in the background. The player is still in the adventure, running his character. His character simply isn't the wizard.[/quote']

 

I disagree; from experience, it's role playing with multiple characters in one campaign. One adventure you get to play your wizard and take center stage while the other players run the warriors, the next adventure or two you play your warrior while another player takes his Wizard.* Very similar to any campaign where one player has multiple PCs, with the addition of the Wizard PCs both starting out more powerful and gaining extra abilities off screen.

 

*And of course other combinations are possible, three Wizards and two Grognards, all Wizards, all Grognards, whatever. Don't be so pedantic.

[Karmakaze]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

I disagree; from experience, it's role playing with multiple characters in one campaign. One adventure you get to play your wizard and take center stage while the other players run the warriors, the next adventure or two you play your warrior while another player takes his Wizard.* Very similar to any campaign where one player has multiple PCs, with the addition of the Wizard PCs both starting out more powerful and gaining extra abilities off screen.

 

*And of course other combinations are possible, three Wizards and two Grognards, all Wizards, all Grognards, whatever. Don't be so pedantic.

 

For example, in the long campaign I was in, I had one Mage who practically never left the Covenant (the home base), except for occasional diplomatic missions to local nobility. I still played her a lot though, because she was the one who had to deal with all the fallout from the folks going out on missions. ("My people? Blew up your church? I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding and they did no such thing. Still, I hate to hear of such destruction. Perhaps we could donate the money to rebuld?" *plans elaborate tortures for her so-called subordinates*)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

For example' date=' in the long campaign I was in, I had one Mage who practically never left the Covenant (the home base), except for occasional diplomatic missions to local nobility. I still played her a lot though, because she was the one who had to deal with all the fallout from the folks going out on missions. ("My people? Blew up your church? I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding and they did no such thing. Still, I hate to hear of such destruction. Perhaps we could donate the money to rebuld?" *plans elaborate tortures for her so-called subordinates*)[/quote']

 

But, once again, while you are on screen adventuring (and this is still adventuring, in my view - political adventuring), the mage isn't off screen studying to gain power, correct?