Discussion on costs of Characteristics

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

a quick bit of personal philosiphy on Hero Gaming

 

I consider, as far as rules go to have different levels, the levels are basicaly

 

Theory, Rules, Genre, sub genre, Setting, sub setting, Campaign, Game

 

Before you change anything I feel a need to figure out what level the change is at, the closer to the top (Theory) the more reluctant I am to change it

 

So I have no problem with as a SETTING rule of "this costs this much instead". Espesialy if we see a lack of frameworks in the setting (or to a lesser extent a few other things). I do feel that the default for the main rules, and the genre books is that it should be the 1:1. First I find that when you use the whole system it balances better (But realise that most settings will cut some of the stuff out. I do feel that the genre books should talk about the effect on feel changing costs will have on the game

 

 

I think this is probably the single best reason the cost should not change - it would have a really major impact on every single published character. if the fanbase is strong enough to therefore want to update all its material, that could be a major boost to the game. If not, it could be a death knell.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

But isn't this pretty genre? I admit my experience matches Phil's which is that the most combat effective characters have always been brick/brick variants. But then we have always let them throw buses as crude AoEs' date=' swing telephone poles to "spread their STR attack" etc. [/quote']

 

It's also pretty genre that flaming Supers have a force field and a damage aura. They pay for that - it doesn't come neatly bundled with "Dits Features - Body on Fire". A better example would be a player we had some years back who built a Martial Artist. A few games in, he suggested that MA's have strong minds due to eastern mysticism/zen/"when you can snatch the pebble from my hand"/etc. And another player quickly noted that the MA should then buy up his Ego, not expect that this was free because it was genre-consistent for his archetype.

 

Similarly, if Bricks want to be able to do everything they see some bricks do in genre, they should pay for it. Which leads nicely to your comment that

 

As a GM' date=' I actually prefer to quantify these sorts of things into a "STR multipower" (and encourage it by putting large OCV/DCV penalties on throwing big things so that "STR plus environment" doesn't render the energy blaster totally redundant) but that simply gives the Brick even more utility unless you rein in the freebies STR gives - which is, in fact, what we've done in the past by recosting STR. [/quote']

 

I don't find a 75 STR Brick in a game where DC's range from 12 - 15 to be overpowered compared to an energy projector or martial artist. If we make him pay an extra 65 points for his STR, I foresee the Brick becoming much less competitive, as a loss of over 15% of your points is bound to have an impact.

 

As Phil points out' date=' the math still makes STR at 2:1 a cost-effective buy - depending on your assumptions, it still gets you 23-25 points of utility for 20 XP. [/quote']

 

Fix figured characteristics and remove Leaping and you solve an awful lot of that issue.

 

a quick bit of personal philosiphy on Hero Gaming

 

I consider, as far as rules go to have different levels, the levels are basicaly

 

Theory, Rules, Genre, sub genre, Setting, sub setting, Campaign, Game

 

Before you change anything I feel a need to figure out what level the change is at, the closer to the top (Theory) the more reluctant I am to change it

 

So I have no problem with as a SETTING rule of "this costs this much instead". Espesialy if we see a lack of frameworks in the setting (or to a lesser extent a few other things). I do feel that the default for the main rules, and the genre books is that it should be the 1:1. First I find that when you use the whole system it balances better (But realise that most settings will cut some of the stuff out. I do feel that the genre books should talk about the effect on feel changing costs will have on the game

 

This is a good point, especially considering that most posters come back to "STR was way too cheap in my game" or "raising the cost would make high STR characters untenable in my game - they seem pretty balanced now".

 

There seems to be a great resistance to changing the cost of STR in only some cases - and it is a big deal to change the cost of a primary stat. However, when we see Turakian Age changing the cost of all spells by dividing them by 3, is raising the cost of STR for a given setting really that big an issue comparatively?

[Kenn]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

It seems to me, that in most Heroic level game, STR is the only "attack power" that people pay full points for. Weapons are bought with "money" not points. I've rarely seen a Fantasy Hero game where there wasn't a "magic system" that involved buying spells in some manner that was different, and lower cost then from how Champions characters build powers. And if they did use the "Champions" powers method, they were always in a collection of frameworks.

 

STR is funny. An 11 STR is barely better than 10 STR. A 12 STR is even less of an improvement over 11 then 11 is over 10. A 13 is quite meneficial. 14 is barely an improvement over 13, you need to get to 15 to really get a benefit.

 

But there's give and take in the system. Hell, it's original designers were engineers. Balance is achieved by one rule pushing against another. I could show you a Heroic strong man and a Heroic martial artist who are almost identical in capability (Har Nald can lift more, but Karadeen can slip out of someone' grip easier) and their costs are nearly equal (Har Nald is 86 pts. Karadeen is 85 pts.).

 

But because of the specific rules that achieve this balance, it becomes cost efficient to have the research scientist who spends six hours a day at the gym, or the half-orc arch-mage, or some equally odd concept. And if the players are going for the odd concepts just to eke out the maximum point efficiency, there's a problem, and it's not the rule system.

 

The 1 pt. for 1 STR works. To remove it would cause the entire system to be recalibrated. There may be campaigns were 2 pts. for 1 STR is better. That's why the optional rule exists. But for everybody? No.

[Tonio]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

It seems to me' date=' that in most Heroic level game, STR is the only "attack power" that people pay full points for. Weapons are bought with "money" not points. I've rarely seen a Fantasy Hero game where there wasn't a "magic system" that involved buying spells in some manner that was different, and lower cost then from how Champions characters build powers. And if they did use the "Champions" powers method, they were always in a collection of frameworks.[/quote']

 

Well, frameworks reduce cost but also utility. It's incorrect to claim STR is more expensive because you usually buy TK in a framework. Also, weapons are bought with money, but they're augmented with STR. So STR is really getting a boost here. Normally 15 STR would do 3d6 Normal Damage, period. Now, paying the same points, you can do up to 2d6 Killing Damage (given the right weapon). Seems pretty nice, no? You could also do 6d6 Normal Damage (again, given the right weapon). All for the same points.

 

STR is funny. An 11 STR is barely better than 10 STR. A 12 STR is even less of an improvement over 11 then 11 is over 10. A 13 is quite meneficial. 14 is barely an improvement over 13' date=' you need to get to 15 to really get a benefit.[/quote']

 

True. But: a) this also applies to most (all?) other stats, and is irrelevant to whether the current cost of STR is appropriate or not.

 

But there's give and take in the system. Hell, it's original designers were engineers. Balance is achieved by one rule pushing against another. I could show you a Heroic strong man and a Heroic martial artist who are almost identical in capability (Har Nald can lift more, but Karadeen can slip out of someone' grip easier) and their costs are nearly equal (Har Nald is 86 pts. Karadeen is 85 pts.).

 

But because of the specific rules that achieve this balance, it becomes cost efficient to have the research scientist who spends six hours a day at the gym, or the half-orc arch-mage, or some equally odd concept. And if the players are going for the odd concepts just to eke out the maximum point efficiency, there's a problem, and it's not the rule system.

 

How is it not the rule system? Unless you mean it's the character creation system, as opposed to the rules. Rules that favor or penalize some concepts, arbitrarily, are a problem. Players shouldn't need to play concepts other than what they want in order to be cost-efficient. Game viable? That's another story.

 

The 1 pt. for 1 STR works. To remove it would cause the entire system to be recalibrated. There may be campaigns were 2 pts. for 1 STR is better. That's why the optional rule exists. But for everybody? No.

 

The 2pts/1STR rule also works, as some people have shown. Mechanically, it works even better. Conceptually, too. Decoupling the different mechanics STR includes (damage, lifting, leaping, etc.) probably works, too. No recalibration for the entire system necessary, mostly because the adjustment is itself a calibration with regards to the entire system.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

And now it should be clear, Akiva, why this goes around the horn every six months or so. Both sides either offer anecdotal evidence of mathematical proof as to why it works for them. However, I agree with Tonio here that setting STR at 2:1 doesn't require a recalibration of the entire system; then the change did nothing.

 

Oh noes, STR is 2:1! RKAz must B 7 pts/d6?!?!!

 

Really, one doesn't chain to the other. They're separate entities; the discussion on the table assumes that no other change is made, beyond increasing the cost of STR.

[Kenn]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Okay...

 

Power Woman

 

Val Char Cost

50 STR 40

20 DEX 30

30 CON 40

15 BODY 10

10 INT 0

10 EGO 0

10 PRE 0

10 COM 0

30 PD 20

30 ED 24

4 SPD 10

16 REC 0

60 END 0

55 STUN 0

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

10" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 174

 

Cost Power

12 +0 STR, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (12 Active Points) (Modifiers affect Base Characteristic) (added to Primary Value)

25 Damage Resistance (26 PD / 24 ED)

62 Flight 20" (Improved Noncombat Movement (x8)), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (62 Active Points)

Powers Cost: 99

 

Total Character Cost: 273

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 73

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

 

 

 

Energy Man

Val Char Cost

10 STR 0

20 DEX 30

30 CON 40

15 BODY 10

10 INT 0

10 EGO 0

10 PRE 0

10 COM 0

30 PD 2

30 ED 0

4 SPD 10

16 REC 16

60 END 0

55 STUN 20

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

10" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 128

 

Cost Power

31 Elemental Control, 62-point Powers

31 1) Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (62 Active Points)

31 2) Flight 20" (Improved Noncombat Movement (x8)), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (62 Active Points)

31 3) Force Field (26 PD / 24 ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (62 Active Points) (added to Primary Value)

8 Leaping +8" (10" forward, 5" upward) (added to Primary Value)

Powers Cost: 132

Total Character Cost: 260

 

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 60

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

 

So, Power Woman, who is already 13 more pts. more expensive than Energy Man, really should be charged 53 more points because she's SO much more effective than him?

[Kenn]

Har Nald

 

Val Char Cost

20 STR 10

18 DEX 24

15 CON 10

12 BODY 4

10 INT 0

10 EGO 0

10 PRE 0

10 COM 0

8 PD 4

8 ED 5

3 SPD 2

8 REC 2

30 END 0

30 STUN 0

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

4" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 61

Cost Power

5 +0 STR, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (5 Active Points) (Modifiers affect Base Characteristic) (added to Primary Value)

Powers Cost: 5

Cost Skill

20 +4 with HTH Combat

Skills Cost: 20

Total Character Cost: 86

Base Points: 75

Experience Required: 11

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

 

 

Karadeen

Val Char Cost

10 STR 0

18 DEX 24

15 CON 10

12 BODY 4

10 INT 0

10 EGO 0

10 PRE 0

10 COM 0

8 PD 6

8 ED 5

3 SPD 2

8 REC 6

30 END 0

30 STUN 5

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

4" LEAP 2

Characteristics Cost: 64

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver

4 Fast Strike: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +0 DCV, STR +2d6 Strike

4 Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, STR +2d6 Strike

3 Martial Grab: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, +10 STR for holding on

4 Martial Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, +15 STR vs. Grabs

Martial Arts Cost: 15

Cost Skill

6 +2 with Martial Arts

Skills Cost: 6

Total Character Cost: 85

Base Points: 75

Experience Required: 10

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

 

And Har Nald is clearly so much more effective than Karadeen that he should cost another 13 more points, yes?

[Tonio]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Well, if I had my way, Kenn, not necessarily. I'd like to get rid of Figureds (not the actual stats, but the fact that they're based on Primaries), and decouple the different aspects of STR. Probably DEX, too, but I haven't given that much thought. STR, though, really breaks the concept behind HERO; the concept that Powers are game effects, and you define the special effects. Strength is a perfectly good special effect for: hitting harder, lifting more, jumping higher, etc. Having a body covered in flames in a perfectly good special effect for: having attacks do less damage (they're partially burned up), having people that touch you get damaged, raising the temperature in your vicinity, being especially resistant to cold and/or fire damage and/or environments, etc. But STR is a "Power" (stat, whatever) that really includes a bunch of effects that are really only tied by SFX. In fact, tied by just one of the many valid SFX's. if HERO has no "Body of Fire" (see above), "Cold Blast" (EB, AoE Cone + CE, lower temp + DEX Drain), "Web Shooting" (EB + Swinging + Entangle), or "Rocket Booster" (Flight, OIF + EB, No Range, OIF) Powers, why does it have a STR (hth damage + lifting capacity + leaping) power?

 

One of the components of STR, hth damage, should probably be priced at 1/1 like it is now. Well, really, 5 per d6, coming out to the same. Leaping is already included, no need to do that one. Lifting capacity... I dunno, price it like we currently price STR now? Mebbe cheaper?

 

So your characters wouldn't be that much more expensive. You'd just need to decide whether they can lift as much as they could, or whether they'd do less damage, or not jump as far, etc.

[Kenn]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

So your characters wouldn't be that much more expensive. You'd just need to decide whether they can lift as much as they could' date=' or whether they'd do less damage, or not jump as far, etc.[/quote']

 

Oh, so I'd just have to change my concept a little just to be cost efficient. Funny, I could sworn someone said

 

Players shouldn't need to play concepts other than what they want in order to be cost-efficient.

 

Changing which builds are most efficient won't make all builds of equal efficency. It just changes which ones are the most effieicent.

[Tonio]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Um... there's a difference between "more cost efficient" and "cheaper". I don't get to play "Kranthor, God of Gods, with the power to change reality just by willing it" in a 150pt Fantasy HERO game just because that's my concept.

 

In your case, one character is more powerful than another, even if they do cost the same amount of points. The higher STR character is inherently more powerful. The only balancing factor is that all those powers granted by STR are Drained, Dispelled, and Suppressed together. Which really means you put all your Strength powers in a "Strength Powers" Elemental Control. But then they're also Aided and Succorred together, which is broken.

 

By this I mean that the separate powers/stats that make up the SFX-ridden STR stat could go into an EC (or any other Framework) the same way other powers can. In fact, they should, if the SFX is "Strength". That balances it out nicely with the rest of the system.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Kenn, Old Buddy. RE Power Woman/Energy Man. You'll be needing another 13 points spent on your force field to reduce the END cost to zero, and quite a bit spent on IPE to make it as unnoticeable as pd/ed is. And you'll be needing persistent.

 

Not to squelch a perfectly good argument, but you haven't quite built like for like.

 

'visible' and ' non-persistent' limitation on 26pd/24ed (and damage reduction). That saves 17 points.

 

Reducing the END cost ont he FF to zero: that costs 13 points.

 

Moreover, that is building the brick pretty inefficiently in terms of the limitations. It is WAY more expensive to build the energy projector to be brick like (persistent and IPE and full END reduction would add 88 points).

 

I do appreciate the point you make, but even setting the example to be efficient to the EP, he still costs more.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

AS for Har Nald and Karadeen, the point may be that martial arts are full of cheap and efficient goodness, but if they'd been built the same except for the characteristics, I don't think there would be any doubt as to the more dangerous build.

 

Even as it stands, the only reason the weakling is cheaper is because you made Har Nald buy his combat levels at 5 each: if he'd bought three pointers (say in punch and grab and....whatever) he'd have saved 8 points and would be back in the lead again (even if you do add 5 STR 0 END (7 points) No figured, only for escaping grabs -1 for an extra 3 points to Har Nald)

 

I do take the point that the system has some compensators, but maybe that just means we ought to have a simpler and more transparent system all around?

 

Love the names though

[sbarron]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

So' date=' Power Woman, who is already 13 more pts. more expensive than Energy Man, really should be charged 53 more points because she's SO much more effective than him?[/quote']Personally, I'm not making Power Woman pay more points because her 50 STR makes her so much more powerful than Energy Man. I'm charging 2:1 because no one ever makes Energy Man like you just did. 95% of the Enegy Men out there look more like this...

Energy Man

Val Char Cost

25 STR 15

20 DEX 30

30 CON 40

15 BODY 10

10 INT 0

10 EGO 0

10 PRE 0

10 COM 0

31 PD 0

30 ED 0

4 SPD 10

16 REC 11

60 END 0

55 STUN 12

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

10" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 127

 

Cost Power

31 Elemental Control, 62-point Powers

31 1) Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (62 Active Points)

31 2) Flight 20" (Improved Noncombat Movement (x8)), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (62 Active Points)

31 3) Force Field (26 PD / 24 ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (62 Active Points) (added to Primary Value)

5 Leaping +5" (10" forward, 5" upward) (added to Primary Value)

Powers Cost: 129

Total Character Cost: 256

 

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 56

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

You'll notice that for 4 fewer points, we now have an Energy Man that is 8 times stronger than your Energy Man. He also does 3d6 more in punching damage, and has 3 more dice to attempt to escapes from grabs. He also has an additional point of PD. Did I mention he can lift motorcycles over his head? For 4 fewer points...

 

Why would a player not do that? Character concept? Then I salute you and him. Because I almost never see the concept of the weak character gets energy powers, without the obligatory "the energy changed the structure of his body, granting greater strength and toughness."

 

Yes, it does happen in games with good players. And I'd bet most of the people on this board fall into that category. But you are not rewarded for making a weak character. You are punished, because a character that doesn't buy up his STR is inefficient as heck. 2:1 goes a long way toward fixing that problem.

[Alibear]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I've only ever changed the cost of Strength to 2:1 in one campaign.

 

That was a fantasy wizards campaign and I wanted to promote bookish weaklings, nerd, geek, heroes. It did what it was meant to do but I don't think I'd repeat the process.

 

The MP is the great leveler.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

If 1d6 HTH is worth 5' date=' is 1d6 Ranged which can be Spread for minor AoE or OCV bonuses, or can be bounced for minor indirect or OCV bonuses, also worth 5? Even if I agree Ranged and STR Adds are of equal value (implied strongly by KA pricing), isn't the ability to spread or bounce worth something?[/quote']

OK, so if it's not worth 5 points, what's it worth? You can't spread or bounce it, but you can Grab with it, you can add it to HA or HKA, you can do other maneuvers with it (Move Thru, Move By, etc.), and you can add it to almsot all Martial Maneuvers. How much is that worth?

 

Your modification to figured chars seems to work OK. It might be a bit more complicated, but that doesn't bother me. Let's see now, by your method, 15 points of STR gets you:

 

3 PD = 3

2 REC = 2 (REC being recosted to 1)

No STUN = 0

No Leaping = 0

3DCs HtH Damage = 15 points (or whatever you would like to specify, I think we can agree that this is worth at least 10 points, right?)

8x Lifting Capacity = ? (>0)

Increased Throwing = ? (>0)

Increased STR-related rolls = ? (>0)

 

Still a good deal, but it looks about right. At these costs, it becomes feasible to sell back STR to make a frail character that's still playable.

 

My experience differs from yours. I think a lot of "bricks are overpowered" experience stems from too liberally allowing SR to substitute for other powers (AoE by hefting large objects, EB by throwing objects, Entangle by wrapping people in guirders and lampposts, etc.).

Shouldn't a 60-STR brick be able to pick up and throw a bus? Shouldn't a falling bus do damage in an area? etc.? Does every brick need to buy the ability to "be strong," separately from their STRength stat?

[Lucius]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I have two words for those who would consider making the secondary characteristics cheaper:

 

Adjustment Powers

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if it would be all that hard to adjust the Adjustment Powers, though....

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I have two words for those who would consider making the secondary characteristics cheaper:

 

Adjustment Powers

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if it would be all that hard to adjust the Adjustment Powers, though....

 

I would leave 2ndry characteristics where they are but reduce the price of some primaries, increase the cost of others, leave some alone.

 

For example, here, in essence is the plan for strength:

 

1. Cut the cord to secondaries. No secondaries. Bad secondary.

 

2. Charge 1 point per point for strength, the ability to 'be strong' - the ability to exert force, lift, crush, hold, that sort of thing. You can't put this is a framework, but you can surely link stuff to it, to simulate strength that gives you other abilities like, for instance, extra PD, REC, STUN, or even powers like armor, leaping. Whatever.

 

3. Charge 5 points per 1d6 for the ability to do impact damage, by punching or throwing: something that involves a bit of quick movement. You can put this in a framework. Go ahead. Whilst it is here in a discussion of strength, it is equally applicable as sfx for a fast character: Flash doesn't hit hard because he is superstrong. He hits hard because his hand is doing Mach 7. 9 times out of 10, this power should be bought with the limitation 'restrainable'.

 

Why 2. AND 3.? Well, they do different things: 2 is strong like a car press is strong, but despite that it couldn't throw a car at all. For a given combat style you don't NEED 3. to be effective, but causing damage requires a little more thought. incidentally, 2. is the sort of strength that you'd generally be using to tear out of an entangle.

 

You'd calculate your throwing distance from the lower of 2. and 3., and the damage from HOW you throw. If you throw AT an opponent, use 3. strength for damage - it is all about ipact. If you throw in a parabola, so the projectile lands ON the opponent, use 2. strength - it is all about weight. This idea needs some work, and at least one new combat maneourve.

 

I have not costed or play tested this yet, obviously. I might try and mock up a character or two and see how it goes though...

 

Incidentally, if we did disconnect sencondaries we should probably leave secondary starting values where they are at the moment, but it should be OK to buy down as many as you like.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Okay...

 

Characters snipped for brevity

 

So, Power Woman, who is already 13 more pts. more expensive than Energy Man, really should be charged 53 more points because she's SO much more effective than him?

 

You're kinda hurting your own point here. Even giving Energy Man an EC to try and compensate for he STR advantage, she's going to whale on him. At SPD 4, he's going to put a puny 20 stun a turn through her defences, even if he hits every time. No chance of stunning her, and that leaves a whole 4 STUN a turn after a post-12 REC. Odds are he can't hurt her at all - she's likely to REC everything he throws at her.

 

And the same might - at first glance - apply to Power Woman. But in the vast majority of situations, it doesn't. Here's why.

 

She's as fast, as he is and has the same CV and move, so he can't shoot and stay out of range. At some point, she's going to grab him. At that point, it's game over, win to Power Woman. He has no chance whatsoever of escaping, and all she has to do is squeeze - since he's paying END for his force field as well as any attacks and she pays nothing for her PD/ED, she's going to be hurting him more than he can hurt her. And he can't take extra recoveries without dropping that forcefield at which point he pops like a grape. Once he's grabbed, there are any number of clever plays by Power Woman (pinning him under a tank, dropping a wall on him, holding his head underwater in a fountain, etc) that can end the fight. And he can't do very much about it.

 

In a fight if either character somehow gets stunned, Energy Man is highly vulnerable, while Power Woman is momentarily inconvenienced. If Powerwoman attacks Energy Man by complete surprise, he's going to the morgue. If he attacks her by surprise, she's likely to be stunned and lose a phase. Looking at those two characters, there are multiple ways in which Power Woman can maim or even kill Energy Man - whereas the reverse is not true.

 

In short, to make the two characters closer to comparable you need to make the FF 0 END and persistent (at which point Power Woman is cheaper but still more effective). As already pointed out, to make them fully comparable, you need IPE as well. With more efficient builds, that gap widens.

 

So yeah, based on lots of experience, bricks in games with 2:1 STR are perfectly viable and as you have demonstrated at 1:1, they rock. Ph3AR the brick with a framework!

 

The heroic level example is closer and as designed, the two are a decent match. That's because a small investment in martial arts is highly efficient. But parity only lasts until you introduce weapons and armour. At that point, Har Nald trashes Karadeen: he can wear heavier armour without impairment, and use larger and more damaging weapons. At a STR of 10 Karadeen is going to struggle in anything more than light armour and the best weapons he can use efficiently are light swords. Even if he spends an extra point to include weapons elements in his martial art, it's going to make little difference (the max he gets to add is one DC). Har Nald in contrast can wear medium weight armour and a shield with no penalty and use a large one handed weapon.

 

Combat at heroic level is always more uncertain, so there's no certainty as to who will win, but with better Def, better DCV and higher damage output, the smart money's most certainly on Har Nald - he can even crank his damage output 2 DC with is levels, if he wants. And that's with a relatively inefficient purchase of 4 x 5 point levels, nearly a 1/4 of his total points. If he was smart and used those 20 points a bit more sensibly (some 3 point levels in sword and another point of SPD for example) his advantage widens even further.

 

The same applies in heroic settings where guns are used: while Karadeen's going to struggle to hit anything using a large calibre handgun, Har Nald's blasting away with no penalties on his assault rifle. Guns equalise things a bit, but the advantage still clearly lies with Har Nald.

 

You can see now why STR at 1:1 is such an exceptionally good buy.

 

cheers, Mark

[Kdansky]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I am also clearly in the "Str is underpriced" camp. It's just incorrect that a brick gets defenses for free while anyone else has to pay proper for it. It's not like a brick could not take frameworks. Yeah, he cannot put the 60 Strength in it without losing the 66 points in figureds, so he'll just buy the strength as is and take a framework for movement powers, utility, desolidification, armor and whatever. You can also easily build a brick and STILL make a full mentalist, since your strength was free (the mentalist will need similar amounts of stun, rec and possibly even more end). I really don't see the problem there.

 

My main gripe though lies on lower power levels. I've got a mentalist type character coming up which can either have 10 strength (fits the concept) or 30 strength (costs about the same, is very useful), or 20 strength (is about 2 points cheaper than the other two solutions). The correct order should be: 10 strength is cheaper than 20 strength is cheaper than 30 strength.

 

I just dislike house rules, especially complicated ones. I think my next game will be str at 2:1. Oh, and I don't care about backwards compatibility. That's like making Windows Vista DOS-compliant. It's stupid. If the system has a flaw, it will not go away if you don't fix it, but new problems will come up everywhere (like HA, or HKA scaling so well with str that it *needs* to have a cap). Same goes for KA. Everyone knows x points of RKA is better (not by much, and only in 95% of all cases, but it IS better) than x points of EB, but it's really not that easy to fix as shown in the many threads on the topic.

 

Why is it that the "str is fine" people are always so fixed on character classes? If you play "brick" (defined as having high str and good defenses), nobody prohibits you from taking an EC, MP or VPP.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

OK' date=' so if it's not worth 5 points, what's it worth? You can't spread or bounce it, but you can Grab with it, you can add it to HA or HKA, you can do other maneuvers with it (Move Thru, Move By, etc.), and you can add it to almsot all Martial Maneuvers. How much is that worth?[/quote']

 

I would say, rather, that martial maneuvers, HA's and HKA's add to STR, so if there s an issue with these, it is in their pricing. The synergies are where these issues get complex.

 

Your modification to figured chars seems to work OK. It might be a bit more complicated, but that doesn't bother me. Let's see now, by your method, 15 points of STR gets you:

 

3 PD = 3

2 REC = 2 (REC being recosted to 1)

No STUN = 0

No Leaping = 0

3DCs HtH Damage = 15 points (or whatever you would like to specify, I think we can agree that this is worth at least 10 points, right?)

8x Lifting Capacity = ? (>0)

Increased Throwing = ? (>0)

Increased STR-related rolls = ? (>0)

 

Still a good deal, but it looks about right. At these costs, it becomes feasible to sell back STR to make a frail character that's still playable.

I think it works out reasonably, anyway.

 

Shouldn't a 60-STR brick be able to pick up and throw a bus? Shouldn't a falling bus do damage in an area? etc.? Does every brick need to buy the ability to "be strong' date='" separately from their STRength stat?[/quote']

 

Shouldn't acaracter who can ignite his body infict damage on those touching him? Sure. And he should pay for that aded utility. I have no issue with our Brick being able tolob the bus. He should, however, take OCV penalties for his lack of WF: Bus and for the bulk of the bus making it unweildy. Offseting this, perhaps it should do a bit more damage, rather than capping at his STR.

 

Should itbe AoE? I say no. I think there should be a OCV bonus at best, possibly AoE nonselective so we still roll to hit. If the Hulk lobs a bus at SpiderMan in the comics, what happens? Spidey might dodge out of the way (dive for cover, so AoE works). Or he might roll under the bus asit rolls through the hex, or leap over it. Or he might jump through two windows on opposite sides of the bus. None of those imply the bus is a standard AoE attack. You want AoE, buy it with an "object of opportunity" limitation.

 

I have two words for those who would consider making the secondary characteristics cheaper:

 

Adjustment Powers

 

I believe my post notes that I would make STUN, END and REC "defensive powers", halving the impact of adjustment powers. That leaves them equally effective against STUN and REC, and less efective against END.

 

You're kinda hurting your own point here. Even giving Energy Man an EC to try and compensate for he STR advantage' date=' she's going to whale on him. At SPD 4, he's going to put a puny 20 stun a turn through her defences, even if he hits every time. No chance of stunning her, and that leaves a whole 4 STUN a turn after a post-12 REC. Odds are he can't hurt her at all - she's likely to REC everything he throws at her.[/quote']

 

They have equal defenses, SPD, STUN and REC, so that cuts both ways.

 

And the same might - at first glance - apply to Power Woman. But in the vast majority of situations, it doesn't. Here's why.

 

She's as fast, as he is and has the same CV and move, so he can't shoot and stay out of range. At some point, she's going to grab him. At that point, it's game over, win to Power Woman. He has no chance whatsoever of escaping, and all she has to do is squeeze - since he's paying END for his force field as well as any attacks and she pays nothing for her PD/ED, she's going to be hurting him more than he can hurt her. And he can't take extra recoveries without dropping that forcefield at which point he pops like a grape.

 

First, nothing says Energy Man can't EB the characterwho has Grabbed him. His EB is not restrainable. Second, don't you need t roll to hit each phase in order to squeeze (a 5er change reducing the value of the "grab and crush" tactic)? Both characters' DV's will be reduced, of course.

 

Once he's grabbed' date=' there are any number of clever plays by Power Woman (pinning him under a tank, dropping a wall on him, holding his head underwater in a fountain, etc) that can end the fight. [b']And he can't do very much about it.[/b]

 

Now we're bringing in a lot of variables. EB can attack a character in an NND AoE environment when STR can't. Reducing this to a cage match demonstrates very little.

 

In a fight if either character somehow gets stunned, Energy Man is highly vulnerable, while Power Woman is momentarily inconvenienced. If Powerwoman attacks Energy Man by complete surprise, he's going to the morgue. If he attacks her by surprise, she's likely to be stunned and lose a phase. Looking at those two characters, there are multiple ways in which Power Woman can maim or even kill Energy Man - whereas the reverse is not true.

 

In short, to make the two characters closer to comparable you need to make the FF 0 END and persistent (at which point Power Woman is cheaper but still more effective). As already pointed out, to make them fully comparable, you need IPE as well. With more efficient builds, that gap widens.

 

This is an issue on pricing of force field vs armor/damage resistance & defenses. Why should anyone put "costs END" on any power when they culd take Visible and Nonpersistent, which total the same -1/2 and don't require spending END. Heck, slap a side effect on for osing END while the defense is up. It's ridiculous that it costs a total of +2 in advantages (IPE, Persistent, 0 END) to offset -1/2 in limitations (Costs END).

 

 

I am also clearly in the "Str is underpriced" camp. It's just incorrect that a brick gets defenses for free while anyone else has to pay proper for it. It's not like a brick could not take frameworks. Yeah' date=' he cannot put the 60 Strength in it without losing the 66 points in figureds, so he'll just buy the strength as is and take a framework for movement powers, utility, desolidification, armor and whatever. You can also easily build a brick and STILL make a full mentalist, since your strength was free (the mentalist will need similar amounts of stun, rec and possibly even more end). I really don't see the problem there.[/quote']

 

By the books, armor won't go in an EC. If you allow it in, EB Man should have Armor instead of Force Field.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

First' date=' nothing says Energy Man can't EB the characterwho has Grabbed him. His EB is not restrainable. Second, don't you need t roll to hit each phase in order to squeeze (a 5er change reducing the value of the "grab and crush" tactic)? Both characters' DV's will be reduced, of course.[/quote']

 

Of course. Nothing I wrote suggested he can't attack. If Energyman uses his EB every phase, he's using up END in addition to keeping his forcefield running. He might as well give up the EB - he can't hurt Power Woman anyway, the way the two are constructed.

 

And yes, she has to roll to hurt him, but she doesn't have to roll to hold him. I took that into account, but it's irrelevant - she can't hurt him either, just by squeezing - as long as he keeps that forcefield up. But he HAS to keep that forcefield up: if he stops paying END, even for a phase, he's basically paste. And in the meantime, she can do many things to to take him out of the fight. The simplest, since they both fly, is simply the ol' crater-maker: grab your puny EB-using foe, soar into the air, and then dive at the pavement, using gravity to double your movement, doing a movethrough with him. Powerwoman should take the full 13d6 for her speed for her velocity/3, meaning that about 16 STUN will leak though. She wont be even stunned and can, in a few phases, do it again. Poor ol' Energy man however wears the STR damage on top of that: 51 Stun goes through. He's stunned and near unconscious, his forcefield is gone - and he's still grabbed. Next phase, while he's recovering from being Stunned, Powerwoman is lifting him over her head to slam him straight down into the pavement. Even if the GM is kind enough to allow him to put up his FF the same phase he recovers from being stunned, it still won't keep him conscious very long. In a phase or two, Power woman is going to be standing in the cratered street, holding the tattered, bloodstained remains of his costume and shouting "Next time put the goddam seat down when you're finished!"

 

A nice GM might let him delay and use his own flight to counter her movement, but now he's burning END for flight and for forcefield ... it'll delay the outcome, but not alter it.

 

Now you are right, that in some circumstances a well-crafted Energy blaster can be a very effective character - NND can level the playing field a bit, and generally it's easier conceptually to develop an EB character with multiple attacks - but I've had Bricks with NND attacks or power frameworks too, so there's no specific advantage to EB guy.

 

After all, I didn't even write these characters: I simply took two characters presented for the express purpose of showing that there wasn't a significant advantage to STR versus EB and showed that actually - surprise surprise - there are multiple, easily-achievable ways that the brick chick can toast the EB guy - but there are in fact, virtually no ways for him to return the favour. She is, in fact, much tougher than he is.

 

Now, you are right: this is in part because of the way STR works with regard to secondaries, leading to knock-on effect on PD. But that's the freaking point!. One can argue about the costs of many characteristics (and people do) but STR is the only that really bothers me partly because it give the absolute most bang for the buck, but also because it's the only one which gives you an attack, essentially for free.

 

As a result, poor ol' EB guy is forced to use a power framework to compete at all. He gets a cost break, but as all Hero system players know "With great cost savings come great weaknesses". In a fight, 90% of the time Power woman is going to mop up on Energy guy - because although they have similar strengths, he has weaknesses she doesn't. And that imbalance flows through in to other aspects of the game, even if they are team-mates. As they are designed, she's almost always going to be better in combat.

 

And there is an easy fix, which does not mess with any other aspects of the game.

 

Cheers, Mark

[caris]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

The simplest' date=' since they both fly, is simply the ol' crater-maker: grab your puny EB-using foe, soar into the air, and then dive at the pavement, using gravity to double your movement, doing a movethrough with him. Powerwoman should take the full 13d6 for her speed for her velocity/3, meaning that about 16 STUN will leak though. She wont be even stunned and can, in a few phases, do it again. Poor ol' Energy man however wears the STR damage on top of that: 51 Stun goes through. He's stunned and near unconscious, his forcefield is gone - and he's still grabbed. Next phase, while he's recovering from being Stunned, Powerwoman is lifting him over her head to slam him straight down into the pavement. Even if the GM is kind enough to allow him to put up his FF the same phase he recovers from being stunned, it still won't keep him conscious very long. In a phase or two, Power woman is going to be standing in the cratered street, holding the tattered, bloodstained remains of his costume and shouting "Next time put the goddam seat down when you're finished!"[/quote']

 

I don't have my book with me. Is your interpretation of Power Woman's damage strictly by the book? As we have always played it, in the situation you are describing Power Woman would take full damage, the same as her target who can't take Knockback in this situation, which means that they would be in very much the same situation after taking that hit.

 

You seem to be forgetting that even though Energy Man has to keep paying END on his FF that he can effectively do it indeffinitely. It uses less per Turn than his REC, and just be grabbed and squeezed doesn't prevent a post 12 Recovery. Now granted if he keeps trying to EB her every Phase that he will eventually run out of END before her. Even so, I think that it is going to come down to, who gets the better die rolls more often. In the grab and squeeze scenario.

 

Of course, your arguement is based on the fight starting with them in a situation where Power Woman can open with a successful grab. If they start at a range where she can not move and grab him in the first Phase, he is perfectly capable of keeping the range open (assuming that no environmental factors favor either). Even if they are in that range and Energy Man takes no defensive actions, she only has an 11- chance to succeed in the grab. That is pretty close to 50/50 odds isn't it?

[Kdansky]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Yeah' date=' he cannot put the 60 Strength in it without losing the 66 points in figureds, so he'll just buy the strength as is and take a framework for movement powers, utility, desolidification, armor and whatever. You can also easily build a brick and STILL make a full mentalist, since your strength was free (the mentalist will need similar amounts of stun, rec and possibly even more end). I really don't see the problem there.[/quote']

 

By the books, armor won't go in an EC. If you allow it in, EB Man should have Armor instead of Force Field.

Right, I should have listed Force Field instead of Armor which is a huuuuuge difference (note the irony), or specified that the armor needs "costs end". So, what about All Other Powers From The 5ER Book TM And All Ultimates Too? (some with "costs end" *if* even put into an EC, which *I* never said. Framework also implies VPP and MP, and nearly anything is valid in both.)

 

The Brick has no disadvantage whatsoever. If you don't restrict players with character classes, everyone will have 40-60 STR in a 350cp game. Because there is no reason not to spend these 3 points from 10 STR to 40 STR, but it's damn useful against grabs and the sort.

 

Props to markdoc for pointing out how immensly powerful STR is

 

You seem to be forgetting that even though Energy Man has to keep paying END on his FF that he can effectively do it indeffinitely. It uses less per Turn than his REC, and just be grabbed and squeezed doesn't prevent a post 12 Recovery. Now granted if he keeps trying to EB her every Phase that he will eventually run out of END before her. Even so, I think that it is going to come down to, who gets the better die rolls more often. In the grab and squeeze scenario.

If he stays passive to conserve END, he'll get dragged to the nearest source of water and drowned, even if that takes a while. No Post12 recovery for him. Or just locked up. If he tries to fight back, he'll go out of END and then KO'd. If you are grabbed and cannot get out or do anything to the graber, you lose. Always.

 

11- is about 65%. She can just full move near him, what is he going to do? Half move away and fire? Next turn grabbed. Full move away and do nothing? He's running away and not doing a thing, proving she has the upper hand. And she can still pick up cars to throw if she wants a ranged duell. She could also do any of the "hurry" maneuvers, or just win a dex roll to go first and try to grab. Yes, she will not be able to grab him easily, but she can try again and again and he cannot do much about it. As soon as she manages that one 11- ONCE, he'll never get out (str rolls 2d6 vs 10d6 outright impossible) and she can do whatever evil thing she thinks of.

 

Markdoc's point is: Either it's a draw or BrickWoman wins. EBguy will either lose or run away. If that is not the definition of "better", then I don't know what is.

 

I don't have my book with me. Is your interpretation of Power Woman's damage strictly by the book? As we have always played it, in the situation you are describing Power Woman would take full damage, the same as her target who can't take Knockback in this situation, which means that they would be in very much the same situation after taking that hit.

If I take the book word by word, it states: "If you *do* no knockback or knockdown, you also take 100% of the damage".

- Splatting someone into the ground counts as "knockdown", if you ask me

- Doing lots of damage results in knockback, even if there is no space, if we go word by word, that's enough.

- If it's not, she just lets go of him 1" before ground, then it's crystal clear in all interpretations. Well, she has to grab him afterwards again, should not be a problem since he is stunned.

 

I am pretty sure Markdoc made the mistake of only applying velocity damage to wonderwoman (but full), which is not correct. Still, the trick works, assuming you manage some knockback with 25d6

 

Thanks to make them male + female, that makes referring by "him" and "her" much easier

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I don't have my book with me. Is your interpretation of Power Woman's damage strictly by the book? As we have always played it, in the situation you are describing Power Woman would take full damage, the same as her target who can't take Knockback in this situation, which means that they would be in very much the same situation after taking that hit.

 

You seem to be forgetting that even though Energy Man has to keep paying END on his FF that he can effectively do it indeffinitely. It uses less per Turn than his REC, and just be grabbed and squeezed doesn't prevent a post 12 Recovery. Now granted if he keeps trying to EB her every Phase that he will eventually run out of END before her. Even so, I think that it is going to come down to, who gets the better die rolls more often. In the grab and squeeze scenario.

 

Of course, your arguement is based on the fight starting with them in a situation where Power Woman can open with a successful grab. If they start at a range where she can not move and grab him in the first Phase, he is perfectly capable of keeping the range open (assuming that no environmental factors favor either). Even if they are in that range and Energy Man takes no defensive actions, she only has an 11- chance to succeed in the grab. That is pretty close to 50/50 odds isn't it?

 

I'm sharply reminded of one of the first exchanges I really had with Caris on the boards, wherein we discussed the mitigating factors (on paper) between an ISD (Imperial Star Destroyer) and the NCC-1701D (Picard's Enterprise). While on paper the ISD doesn't stand a snowball's chance in a fiery hell, if you change the environment so that the ISD can bring it's fighters and turbo lasers to bear, suddenly you have a very different fight.

 

The question is, is there a situation wherein EB Boy can start actually dealing significant damage to Power Person? Haymaker? Special maneuvers? If he holds action (I don't know who goes first, forgive me) and then Haymakers for 4 extra DC, even IF she aborts he can still tag her on the next shared phase.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I would leave 2ndry characteristics where they are but reduce the price of some primaries' date=' increase the cost of others, leave some alone.[/quote']

 

I love reading these threads - I'm an on the fence guy - open to being persuaded and often pushed over the edge by one argument or another and then pulled back again.

 

All that the continuous argument and the complicated balancing that has to be taken into consideration by the switches just reinforces the feeling that I have that the obvious change, if there is to be one, is to scrap characteristics completely.

 

 

If I am to comment within the current conversation though, Lucius raised the issue of adjustment powers as an argument against lowering the cost of figured characteristics. You could get round this by either not considering figured characteristics as viable for adjustment or consider them all as defensive powers (and thus double the cost to adjust). If doubling isn't enough to balance the lowered cost then make adjusting figured characteristics three or four times more expensive - we do it anyway so it wouldn't make it particularly more complicated.

 

 

Doc