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D&D 4th


CTaylor

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OK I listened to the 4th edition playtest with the PVP and Penny Arcade guys, it was fun although the guys are huge dorks most of the time. I came away with two impressions.

 

1) D&D is trying to simulate an online MMOG which is wierdly recursive, since most of them are trying to simulate D%D. That really does seem to be their model, to make a pen and paper game that feels like and simulates an online game.

2) They borrowed some from Fantasy Hero, down to the "perception roll" which I think is smart of them but interesting.

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Re: D&D 4th

 

4E seems to be moving in the opposite direction of what I want in an RPG. It is less simulation and more abstractions that emulate video games. It is more about roles than characters and characters are more about special abilities than qualities. I'll probably read it but the game doesn't seem to have anything to offer me.

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Probably because they rolled all those up. Perception isn't unique to HERO either as a game mechanic or an idea, heheh.

 

(deleted sarcasm here)...I know that, but they specifically changed the name to "PERCEPTION" collapsing all of the previous different types into one roll with the same name as Hero uses. I thought that was interesting and ties into Fantasy Hero, which is why I posted it here.

 

I agree, Eosin, it really seems like a step in the wrong direction, they are Hasbro'ing D20, and I don't think it's a good move.

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I was a playtester for 4e and our whole group was very negative of the changes they made. Obviously, they wouldn't let our voice be heard before the game was released, but it's not D&D. It probably will be a fun RPG, but it is D&D no more.

 

The biggest thing is that every character plays the same and the game has a very very very bad healing mechanic.

 

Due to the NDA I can't really can't communicate my and my groups disgust with the new "Dungeons and Dragons".

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On the bright side' date=' this has a good chance of moving players to Fantasy Hero if it is handled well :)[/quote']

 

Unfortunately, given D&D's place in the RPG pecking order, if D&D's popularity declines, the most likely result is all RPG's decline. Many, if not most, RPG gamers started with D&D - some liked the concept and found other games with the same concept. If D&D is horrid, the most likely result is players putting it on the shelf and playing Monopoly instead - a game they have heard of, not switching to other RPG's - which most of them will not be aware of.

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I agree' date=' Eosin, it really seems like a step in the wrong direction, they are Hasbro'ing D20, and I don't think it's a good move.[/quote']

 

From a quality tabletop roleplaying experience perspective, I agree - it feels like a step in the wrong direction. On the other hand, for the purposes of obtaining a quality tabletop roleplaying experience, I've already walked away from D&D.

 

From a marketing perspective, though, there's some logic behind it. The tabletop audience is pretty well saturated at this point. The computer RPG market, however, isn't. So rather than trying to please the existing market, which will either buy anything called "Dungeons and Dragons" or are likely to resist changing their preferred system anyway, they're trying to draw from a new market by appealing to MMORPG players.

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So rather than trying to please the existing market' date=' which will either buy anything called "Dungeons and Dragons" or are likely to resist changing their preferred system anyway, they're trying to draw from a new market by appealing to MMORPG players.[/quote']

 

It's sort of like trying to get those who like to travel by airplane to instead take a a slower train by dressing the train up with awkward, airplane like bits, putting a stewardess on board, and having recorded plance noises broadcast through the train. These changes will just annoy those who like travelling by train, but really wont be enough to convince those who like planes that the train is now just the same.

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It's sort of like trying to get those who like to travel by airplane to instead take a a slower train by dressing the train up with awkward' date=' airplane like bits, putting a stewardess on board, and having recorded plance noises broadcast through the train. These changes will just annoy those who like travelling by train, but really wont be enough to convince those who like planes that the train is now just the same.[/quote']

Greatest explanation of D&D 3.x as an RPG, ever...or, wait, are you describing D&D 4e as a video game? :hush:

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On the bright side' date=' this has a good chance of moving players to Fantasy Hero if it is handled well :)[/quote']

 

I think a fair number of fantasy RPGs stand to gain a shot in the arm. Even if 4E is successful there remains a fairly devoted 3.X crowd with $10,000 in sourcebooks. They will wind up with Pathfinder or some other variation of "not the worlds best selling RPG." Once a player walks on the dark side and stray from the official WOTC lines it isn't that hard to attract them to non-d20.

 

 

Unfortunately' date=' given D&D's place in the RPG pecking order, if D&D's popularity declines, the most likely result is all RPG's decline. Many, if not most, RPG gamers started with D&D - some liked the concept and found other games with the same concept. If D&D is horrid, the most likely result is players putting it on the shelf and playing Monopoly instead - a game they have heard of, not switching to other RPG's - which most of them will not be aware of.[/quote']

 

So, D&D is the gateway drug? :D

 

I don't think the immediate future holds a threat of D&D decline. I suspect that 4E will sell like wallbangers at least as long as we are at war and in a failing economy.

 

It would be nice if 4E created the perfect storm - disenfranchised a portion of its flock while attracting new blood into video/FRPG genre. The number of roleplayers would grow and the number playing non-D&D games would grow as well.

 

From a quality tabletop roleplaying experience perspective, I agree - it feels like a step in the wrong direction. On the other hand, for the purposes of obtaining a quality tabletop roleplaying experience, I've already walked away from D&D.

 

From a marketing perspective, though, there's some logic behind it. The tabletop audience is pretty well saturated at this point. The computer RPG market, however, isn't. So rather than trying to please the existing market, which will either buy anything called "Dungeons and Dragons" or are likely to resist changing their preferred system anyway, they're trying to draw from a new market by appealing to MMORPG players.

 

I agree and disagree. The disagreement is that there appears to be a strong movement towards an independent 3.X version of D&D. See above - that divorce could benefit all fantasy games. It isn't a given but there is a possibility.

 

I am quite interested to see what the next year to eighteen months holds for fantasy games.

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Re: D&D 4th

 

I was a playtester for 4e and our whole group was very negative of the changes they made. Obviously, they wouldn't let our voice be heard before the game was released, but it's not D&D. It probably will be a fun RPG, but it is D&D no more.

 

The biggest thing is that every character plays the same and the game has a very very very bad healing mechanic.

 

Due to the NDA I can't really can't communicate my and my groups disgust with the new "Dungeons and Dragons".

 

Hi Gunstar: Can you talk openly after the release? If so I would really like to hear your opinions.

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Re: D&D 4th

 

I think a fair number of fantasy RPGs stand to gain a shot in the arm. Even if 4E is successful there remains a fairly devoted 3.X crowd with $10,000 in sourcebooks. They will wind up with Pathfinder or some other variation of "not the worlds best selling RPG." Once a player walks on the dark side and stray from the official WOTC lines it isn't that hard to attract them to non-d20.

 

And it's not like 3.X is going away. The Pathfinder RPG looks much better than 4E.

 

I'm picking up 4E only because I'm trying to get a new group with some friends together who are die-hard D&Ders. I'll steer them towards Fantasy Hero ASAP, though. :)

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And it's not like 3.X is going away. The Pathfinder RPG looks much better than 4E.

 

I'm picking up 4E only because I'm trying to get a new group with some friends together who are die-hard D&Ders. I'll steer them towards Fantasy Hero ASAP, though. :)

 

Oddly enough, although I was a keen player of OD&D and AD&D1 'back in the day' (I only played 2nd edn about 3 times as I was out of RPGing during most of that edition's 'lifespan'), I bought the core rulebooks for 3.5 mainly out of curiosity and also as a reference for when I am trying to get D&D types to play HERO - it give me a frame of reference to work with so I know 'where they are coming from', as it were.

 

I will probably get 4e for a similar reason (the game itself does not look like it will appeal to me at all - unless I know a really good GM that is running a game of it), and also because I work in publishing (typesetting and layout) and can count the rulebooks as a business expense (;):rolleyes::thumbup:).

 

I suppose the good news is that when I roll out a Forgotten Realms HERO campaign (hopefully next academic year) using mainly 2nd and 3rd ed. materials (apart from a converted Kara-Tur set) and play fast and loose with the 'canon',people will be less likely to be anally retentive about it after seeing what WOTC are doing with that setting :ugly:.

 

I will probably still check out Pathfinder though - just out of curiosity.

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Re: D&D 4th

 

From a marketing perspective' date=' though, there's some logic behind it. The tabletop audience is pretty well saturated at this point. The computer RPG market, however, isn't. So rather than trying to please the existing market, which will either buy anything called "Dungeons and Dragons" or are likely to resist changing their preferred system anyway, they're trying to draw from a new market by appealing to MMORPG players.[/quote']

 

Yep, and if you read the comments by Tycho and Gabe, on Penny Arcade, they make a big deal of (in a positive way) how much playing 4E is like playing a live-action video game.

 

Me, I don't care: I'd happily play 4E, since I already regard D&D as largely a tactical-scale fantasy wargame, with RP elements: we go to strange, exotic, haunting locales, kill the things that live there and take their stuff :D Along the way we build on our coolness* and try to spice our adventures with witty banter. I have other games for more of a RP element

 

cheers, Mark

 

*We'd make a great anime. We've got the bad boy scrapper in his scruffy leathers with a huge sword and white hair that falls down over one eye, the massive scarred bald warrior with an unrealistically huge hammer, the bishonen elf guy in his black plate, the gypsy girl with too much make up and jewellery and the hot elf chick with a bow :D Stereotyped? Us? :D

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