D&D 4th

[Markdoc]

Re: D&D 4th

 

The biggest thing is that every character plays the same and the game has a very very very bad healing mechanic.

 

I do find it kind of weird that you heal people by hurting other people.....

 

cheers, Mark

[incrdbil]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I do find it kind of weird that you heal people by hurting other people.....

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

You know, I don't think I want that one explained to me.

[CandidGamera]

Re: D&D 4th

 

You know, I really liked D&D 4E ... when it was called HeroQuest. Spade>

[teh bunneh]

Re: D&D 4th

 

You know' date=' I don't think I want that one explained to me.[/quote']

 

It sort of uses the DPS concept from MORPGs. Clerics have a special power that allows them (or their party) to regain HP every time they do damage to an opponent. Fighters have a mechanic in which they do damage to their opponents even when they miss.

 

For someone who never plays MORPGs (me!), it's pretty bizarre.

[CTaylor]

Re: D&D 4th

 

The system has more or less abandoned the concept that while fantastic, the abilities and events should be plausible and reasonable within the setting. Now it's just "here kiddies, you can have fun! Use a red power once a day, use green power once a fight!"

[NestorDRod]

Re: D&D 4th

 

So, at what point can you call BS on WotC and tell them it isn't a roleplaying game any more?

[incrdbil]

Re: D&D 4th

 

It sort of uses the DPS concept from MORPGs. Clerics have a special power that allows them (or their party) to regain HP every time they do damage to an opponent. Fighters have a mechanic in which they do damage to their opponents even when they miss.

 

For someone who never plays MORPGs (me!), it's pretty bizarre.

 

Wow.

 

I'm stunned by how much 'suck' is contained in that small summary of rules.

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: D&D 4th

 

You know' date=' I don't think I want that one explained to me.[/quote']

 

Well, it starts with the assumption that Hit Points aren't just Body or Stun: HP represent a wide range of factors that keep you fighting, including endurance and morale, as well as fully physical features. Getting attacked for 12 damage might just represent you getting progrssively more winded or fatigued, rather than actually getting injured; it might also be you getting distraught at your chances of success. Your last 15 hit points (or so) might actually represent taking Body damage - anything above that isn't 'actual' damage.

 

So in those terms, healing isn't just about restoring your Body - it's also about giving you a pep talk when you need it before the next monsters come down the tunnel, or by improving your morale by seeing your teammates smash the holy heck out of the opposition.

[Theron]

Re: D&D 4th

 

So' date=' at what point can you call BS on WotC and tell them it isn't a [b']roleplaying[/b] game any more?

 

When you believe you're that capable of speaking Ex Cathedra.

[incrdbil]

Re: D&D 4th

 

So in those terms, healing isn't just about restoring your Body - it's also about giving you a pep talk when you need it before the next monsters come down the tunnel, or by improving your morale by seeing your teammates smash the holy heck out of the opposition.

 

So wow, they've even made hit points more of a silly abstraction than under prior editions.

[mayapuppies]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I just looked over the characters for the World Wide Game day coming this weekend and, wow.

 

Each character has the ability to 'Heal' x amount of HP x times per day. This is over and above any clerics that are in the part. The example fighter has a base 28 HP and can regain 7 HP 10x/day...plus, they all have this 'Second Wind' ability that is only available once per day...not sure what that does, but it's listed right next to the HP recovery doohickey.

 

If you don't fight undead, clerics have become useless. or even if you do fight undead.

 

The thief..erm...rogue, has a Warlock spell called 'Eyebite' basically he gives the 'ol Stinkeye to someone which does psychic damage and makes him invisible to the targeted person.

 

Why does a rogue have a Warlock spell?

[Susano]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I just looked over the characters for the World Wide Game day coming this weekend and, wow.

 

Each character has the ability to 'Heal' x amount of HP x times per day. This is over and above any clerics that are in the part. The example fighter has a base 28 HP and can regain 7 HP 10x/day...plus, they all have this 'Second Wind' ability that is only available once per day...not sure what that does, but it's listed right next to the HP recovery doohickey.

 

If you don't fight undead, clerics have become useless. or even if you do fight undead.

 

The thief..erm...rogue, has a Warlock spell called 'Eyebite' basically he gives the 'ol Stinkeye to someone which does psychic damage and makes him invisible to the targeted person.

 

Why does a rogue have a Warlock spell?

 

For the same reason god has a starship.

[NestorDRod]

Re: D&D 4th

 

When you believe you're that capable of speaking Ex Cathedra.

 

 

What does papal infallibility have to do with the price of fish?

 

Or is that some new game I haven't heard about?

 

What I meant by my comment is that, the way it looks to me, D&D is morphing from being a roleplaying game into a game in which roleplaying may be done. There is, at least to me, a distinction between the two.

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: D&D 4th

 

So wow' date=' they've even made hit points more of a silly abstraction than under prior editions.[/quote']

 

Go back and look at 1st Ed AD&D - IIRC, it's pretty much the same as what I've described here about 4E... the only difference is that they've expanded on the concept of healing in the new ed.

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: D&D 4th

 

Each character has the ability to 'Heal' x amount of HP x times per day. This is over and above any clerics that are in the part. The example fighter has a base 28 HP and can regain 7 HP 10x/day...plus, they all have this 'Second Wind' ability that is only available once per day...not sure what that does, but it's listed right next to the HP recovery doohickey.

 

'Second Wind' lets you use a Healing Surge in the middle of combat. All other Healing Surges need to be used out of combat, unless somebody has a power that allows you to use one (like clerics and warlords).

 

If you don't fight undead, clerics have become useless. or even if you do fight undead.

 

And you say that like it's a bad thing. In previous versions, somebody always had to play a cleric, or else the game (and the characters) died quickly. Now, they've worked on removing that necessity. Having a Leader (cleric, warlord, bard) in the party will come in very handy, but it's not absolutely required, because everyone has some sort of ability to heal damage, even if it's just catching your breath between battles.

 

The thief..erm...rogue, has a Warlock spell called 'Eyebite' basically he gives the 'ol Stinkeye to someone which does psychic damage and makes him invisible to the targeted person.

 

Why does a rogue have a Warlock spell?

 

Without looking at him, I'd guess one of two things: He's a Half-Elf, or he took a multiclassing feat. Half-Elves are really versitile - therefore, one of their racial abilities is to choose an At-will ability from another class, and be able to use it once per Encounter.

[Markdoc]

Re: D&D 4th

 

It sort of uses the DPS concept from MORPGs. Clerics have a special power that allows them (or their party) to regain HP every time they do damage to an opponent.

 

Ah! I don't play MORPGs, so I didn't know where that came from: I thought it was response to the cleric's lament "I can't use all these cool spells, because otherwise we'll have no healing! Waaah!"

 

cheers, Mark

[Theron]

Re: D&D 4th

 

What I meant by my comment is that' date=' the way it looks to me, D&D is morphing from being a roleplaying game into a game in which roleplaying may be done. There is, at least to me, a distinction between the two. [/quote']

 

The key point is, at least to YOU it seems that way. Not to me. Not to lots of other folks. To me, it looks like you're setting up an artificially subjective criteria to justify a dislike of the game. I have a general dislike of blanket statements on subjects of taste. However, it's possible I'm misreading your intent as this is an imperfect medium for communication. If so, I heartily apologize.

[Markdoc]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I just looked over the characters for the World Wide Game day coming this weekend and, wow.

 

Each character has the ability to 'Heal' x amount of HP x times per day. This is over and above any clerics that are in the part. The example fighter has a base 28 HP and can regain 7 HP 10x/day...plus, they all have this 'Second Wind' ability that is only available once per day...not sure what that does, but it's listed right next to the HP recovery doohickey.

 

If you don't fight undead, clerics have become useless. or even if you do fight undead.

 

Not really - because the amount of damage that you can mete out with combos has also increased and the intended number of encounters per day has increased also. These rules mean (just like WoW) that you can solo without a cleric, but that big raids are going to need a cleric (or three)

 

Why does a rogue have a Warlock spell?

 

Because it's cool! Duh! (OK, real reason? I'm guessing it's because thieves, sorry, rogues, can do something like this in WoW: they need to get invisible to flank and do mondo damage)

 

cheers, Mark

[culhwch]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I just looked over the characters for the World Wide Game day coming this weekend and, wow.

 

Each character has the ability to 'Heal' x amount of HP x times per day. This is over and above any clerics that are in the part. The example fighter has a base 28 HP and can regain 7 HP 10x/day...plus, they all have this 'Second Wind' ability that is only available once per day...not sure what that does, but it's listed right next to the HP recovery doohickey.

 

If you don't fight undead, clerics have become useless. or even if you do fight undead.

 

The thief..erm...rogue, has a Warlock spell called 'Eyebite' basically he gives the 'ol Stinkeye to someone which does psychic damage and makes him invisible to the targeted person.

 

Why does a rogue have a Warlock spell?

 

Haven't seen the character, but it sounds like a multi-classed Rogue. Multi-classing allows you to pick abilities from other classes now.

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: D&D 4th

 

Ah! I don't play MORPGs' date=' so I didn't know where that came from: I thought it was response to the cleric's lament "[i']I can't use all these cool spells, because otherwise we'll have no healing! Waaah![/i]"

 

It's more this than what Rabbit said. DPS just means 'Damage Per Second' - anyone who attacks stuff (as opposed to getting attacked like a tank, or healing like a priest) can be considered a DPS class - some are better at it than others.

 

The ability in question lets a cleric do things other than just saving their spell slots for healing. I'd say that's a big plus.

[Doug Limmer]

Re: D&D 4th

 

It's kind of amazing how much conclusion-jumping is going on in this thread. I'm not a big supporter of D&D 4e (I'm neutral to it, really), but it's getting bashed by people who don't really have true information on the game. Go look at the previews that Wizards has up (they have quite a few by now), and see for yourself what it's like. Don't rely on biased reports saying "it's just like a MMORPG now!"

 

My opinion? It's a game that has evolved from the original D&D, and has many things in common with it, but it is not the same game as, say, 1st edition AD&D. That doesn't make it good or bad, or better or worse, just different.

[CTaylor]

Re: D&D 4th

 

the way it looks to me, D&D is morphing from being a roleplaying game into a game in which roleplaying may be done.

 

Sure, the game has a lot more in common with Heroquest (as mentioned earlier) or Warhammer Quest than an RPG. You can role play in them, but that's not really what it's about.

 

And Doug: what makes you think people have not looked at the previews and information yet? Please don't presume malice or stupidity just because you disagree with someone. They're clearly pushing this game toward MMOGs and MMOG players. That is, as I stated earlier, a very strange place to go.

[Sketchpad]

Re: D&D 4th

 

[Paints a Target on His Chest]

 

I don't mind the 4th ed stuff. I'm not much off a MMORPGer, but I kind of like some of the ideas they're going with. Mind you, I would prefer some more build-style rules, allowing players/GMs to create additional material with a structured function, but, IMHO, it could be much worse Of course, YMMV

 

As for this relating to Hero, again, I think there are some ideas that could be easily transferred to Hero for a FH campaign. Particularly the idea of "powers/abilities" that are more limited in a campaign scope rather than a mechanic one. For example, I've considered making some abilities that could enhance a profession:

 

Whirling Blade

Type: Town Hero, Swordsman

Skill: Sword Play (DEX-Based)

Effect: +1d6 HKA w/ Sword, AE Radius

Uses: 3/day

 

[b]Build[/b]
4	Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand +1d6; 3 Charges (-1 1/4), OAF (Sword; -1/2), Requires A Sword Play Roll  (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4)	[3]
56	Area Of Effect (up to 5" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4) for up to 45 Active Points of Spin Attack	6

Effectively, the ability is limited by profession and could be seen as a Talent or Ability of that particular vocation.

 

 

As for it feeling a bit more like a mini game, what does it need to allow a player to play their character?

[Eosin]

Re: D&D 4th

 

It's kind of amazing how much conclusion-jumping is going on in this thread. I'm not a big supporter of D&D 4e (I'm neutral to it, really), but it's getting bashed by people who don't really have true information on the game. Go look at the previews that Wizards has up (they have quite a few by now), and see for yourself what it's like. Don't rely on biased reports saying "it's just like a MMORPG now!"

 

My opinion? It's a game that has evolved from the original D&D, and has many things in common with it, but it is not the same game as, say, 1st edition AD&D. That doesn't make it good or bad, or better or worse, just different.

 

I have plenty of information -- I can see that it has borrowed some MMORPG elements but then the two sorta feed each other in some strange incestuous dance. The game seems designed to be unappealing to me irregardless.

 

My Desires:

Stimulationist

Infrequent Magic

Human Centric Games

 

4E Concept

Substantially more gamist

The absurd level of magic has been taken away from items and invested into the character (now I can't just exclude a few classes (even write my own non-magical classes) and exclude most magic items).

The game maintains its focus on monster bashing as the primary form of opposition.

 

 

Does my evaluation seem right to you? If it is wrong then I may need to go back and take a second look but judging from reviews, previews, and the reports of the ungagged playtesters that I think the evaluation is fairly accurate.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: D&D 4th

 

 

Why does a rogue have a Warlock spell?

 

As recall the rogue is a half-elf whose racial ability is able to take an ability from any class.

 

I've read through the PH and some of the DMG, and to be honest, I am more excited about it than Hero 6th. Yeah, I know - heretic.

 

I get a really strong OD&D 1st ed AD&D vibe from 4th. They give you combat rules where anyone can do stuff and leave the roleplaying to the GM and players... really a lot like Hero if you didn't have disads.

 

And the second wind ability from healing surges - think Inigo after he got knifed. It emulates that kind of thing really well.

 

 

For me D&D is the simple game I'm going to play when I don't want to deal with the complexities of Hero. Plus I love learning and tinkering with systems, and here is a new system to learn and master... Woohooo!