Multipower slot swapping and abuse

[DarkGreen]

I thought of this due to the DD clone someone just posted. How do people deal with those who have multipowers containing both movement powers and attacks (or defenses!).

 

By the rules they could theoretically make a half move and then swap their points over to something else to attack/defend, but that always feels abusive to me. How do people treat this?

 

The "levels swapping" issue is similar, although in my group we just settled on the rule that a level can only be assigned one place per phase. As per the rules (reassigning levels is 0-phase and thus could be done after a half-move or skill usage) it can get messy.

 

-DG

[Fuzzy Gnome]

I'd do it the 4th Edition way - assign levels and MP slots at the start of your Phase or as an abort, and not at any other time.

[Monolith]

I did not even realize the point-swaping rule for Multipowers had changed. I have asked Steve about it in the Rules forum to confirm this. It might just have been an oversight.

[Acroyear]

Your concerns might be less scary than you think. One must remember that when a character acts, they aren't in a total vacuum. It's poor tactics to switch MP slots to extremes if you rely on multiple powers within it. Both faster and slower people can be a threat.

 

Just a couple quick examples:

 

1) Someone could interrupt your action. So if you shift your MP to all movement and no FF, someone could really slam you while you are trying to half move.

 

2) After you complete your Phase, you're stuck. Switching it all to attack just before you attack leaves you with a useless attack power active while everyone else takes turns pounding on you.

[Old Man]

I never thought of that. It is kind of gross. I would think that something like this would be covered in the rules.

[Acroyear]

Also, one might consider the text in the MP description concerning switching allocation that reads "from Phase to Phase" to mean you can only do it once per Phase

[Monolith]

It was in the rules FAQ, only it was under Multipower instead of the Combat Section where Zero-Phase Actions are discussed.

 

Q: Since allocating reserve points in a Multipower is a Zero-Phase Action, could you allocate points more than once in the same Phase? For example, could a character shift points to his Teleportation slot at the beginning of his Phase, make a Half Move with Teleportation, re-allocate points to his Energy Blast slot, and attack with the EB?

 

A: Generally speaking, no. In most cases a character should only allocate Multipower reserve points once in a Phase. The example above shows just how potentially abusive allowing multiple allocations in the same Phase can be.

 

However, it should be noted that, under a strict technical interpretation of the rules, what you’re describing is possible. To say characters should never be allowed to make multiple reserve point allocations during a Segment could potentially impede a lot of perfectly valid and dramatic actions. Multiple allocations might be appropriate in many situations, campaigns, and genres. The GM might allow it as a campaign ground rule, as a one-time thing in appropriate circumstances, or as a trick occasionally pulled with the assistance of an appropriate Power Skill roll.

I would rule that it can be done, but only with a Power Skill roll.

[Guest Keneton]

Worse than this was to buy up fasts draw really high and then use it to turn on and off your desolidification when attacked and still have a full phase left after everyone else is spent.

 

Even better is to full move martial attack using tunneling that closes the whole behind you so that you can have all of your levels in offense all the time!

 

HEHEHE!

 

The first is addressed in the FAQ but is still quasi legal. Regarding switching levels ina phase, so what. If you do it without a maneuver it is not persistant and you can presence attack them out of it!

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by Keneton

Regarding switching levels ina phase, so what. If you do it without a maneuver it is not persistant and you can presence attack them out of it!

 

I don't get that comment about it not being persistant and presence attack. The thing I'm worried about is the scenario where a character's phase is like this:

 

Let's assume a heroic campaign (I know.. this is the champions thread... but it makes the point clearer), with a character on a horse:

 

Looks around (overall level in PER)

Half Move (overall level in Riding or DCV)

Looks around again (overall level in PER)

Says something dramatic (overall level in Oratory for PRE attack)

Attacks (overall level in offense)

 

Hmm... Now that overall level subbed in for many levels and is worth way more than 10 points.

 

-DG

[Monolith]

I am fairly certain that a Skill Level/Combat Level can only be used once per Phase. But this time if you want proof look it up in the FAQ yourself.

[MuscaDomestica]

I always wondered how missle deflection works with a multipower... There is a player with a big multipower that has missle deflection, he uses when he holds his phase... but it still seems horribly cheap.

[Guest Keneton]

Your example takes more than a phase.

 

Perception roll (1/2 phase)

Half Move ends phase.

 

But lets say you did not make the perception roll take a half phase. One the level is used, it is used. If I hold, my levels are uncommitted unless I choose to place them. I can do so in response to an attack via Dex roll or an appropriate Fast Draw without aborting. Once committed, they cannot change. The same applies with say Find Weakness, once the skill is used you cannot then pull out your levels and place them in OCV. Spent is spent.

 

With the multipower example with the move 15' (half move of 30" flight) then switch to an attack. This also fails. It takes 60 active points of flight to generate a 15" half move. There are no points left to switch.

 

This has always been a touchy spot for me. Those who read my posts know I lost the debate over overall levels and powers on the old boards. Now many will see why I was correct.

 

Good thread Dark Green!

[Guest Keneton]

In regards to Missile Deflection in a mUltipower, no problemo!

When you missile deflect your phase ends, how can that be abused?

 

Who cares what multipower points are unused?

[MuscaDomestica]

I know... The player is kind of annoying he hates the combat system so he makes a combat monster that ends combats quickly. The GM doesn't pay attention so the 10d6 killing attack ended up going through which makes almost all combats quick and uninteresting.

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by Keneton

Your example takes more than a phase.

 

Perception roll (1/2 phase)

Half Move ends phase.

 

But lets say you did not make the perception roll take a half phase. One the level is used, it is used. If I hold, my levels are uncommitted unless I choose to place them. I can do so in response to an attack via Dex roll or an appropriate Fast Draw without aborting. Once committed, they cannot change. The same applies with say Find Weakness, once the skill is used you cannot then pull out your levels and place them in OCV. Spent is spent.

 

With the multipower example with the move 15' (half move of 30" flight) then switch to an attack. This also fails. It takes 60 active points of flight to generate a 15" half move. There are no points left to switch.

 

This has always been a touchy spot for me. Those who read my posts know I lost the debate over overall levels and powers on the old boards. Now many will see why I was correct.

 

Good thread Dark Green!

 

Thanks for the compliment Keneton. Now, your description of level and multipower use is how I typically run things - BUT sadly it is not the rules.

 

For PER rolls a fast patdown of someone takes a phase (pg 306), and the special version of PER roll for fighting someone invisible using a non-targeting sense - making a non-targeting sense work as a targeting sense takes 1/2 phase (action chart pg 237). The PER roll is typically a zero phase action if it is just to "notice something" that the GM wants to know if you see. My example was considering that the GM was asking the character to roll a PER roll to notice something.

 

Also on page 237 it notes that changing skill levels or a multipower is a 0 phase action. In the section discussing actions and the combat phase it is clearly stated that you can take all the 0 phase actions you want at the start of your phase and after a 1/2 phase action if it's not an attack.

 

This is borne out by the FAQ entry I just found (thanks Monolith, I gotta search that more often):

 

==========================

Q: Can a character re-arrange his CSLs more than once in a Phase — for example, at the start of his Phase (a Zero-Phase Action), and then again after making a Half Move (as another Zero-Phase Action)?

 

A: Generally speaking, no. In most cases a character should only allocate his CSLs once in a Phase. The example above shows just how potentially abusive allowing multiple allocations in the same Phase can be.

 

However, it should be noted that, under a strict technical interpretation of the rules, what you’re describing is possible. To say characters should never be allowed to allocate a CSL more than once during a Segment could potentially impede a lot of perfectly valid and dramatic actions. Multiple allocations in a Segment might be appropriate in many situations, campaigns, and genres. The GM might allow it as a campaign ground rule, as a one-time thing in appropriate circumstances, or as a trick occasionally pulled with the assistance of an appropriate Power Skill roll.

=========================

 

I guess it's easy enough to make a house rule as above, but the fact that I had a house rule is what spurred me to start the thread. I'm always curious if my house rules are fair or not and for all I knew, everybody else lets people shift their levels and multipowers all they want

 

Sounds like most people do what I do and the FAQ recommends it. That makes me feel better about staring down any players who get pouty and say "the rules say I can do this!"

 

Presumably this will all get cleaned up in sixth edition

 

-DG

[Guest Keneton]

It only became screwed up in Fifth. The skills rule used to say ...applied to "A" skill or "AN" appropriete attack The exact language implying singular. Placing skill levels a a zero phase action always bothered me as they only counted when appropriate. I interpret this to mean placing skill levels can be done over time. If I have 3 levels I do not have to commit all at one time, unleess in the case of an attack action at which time everything is commited or burned!

 

For example a +1 with Karate (3pts) is only approprite when using a karate maneuver. It would not count for Wrestling or against ranged DCV unless a karate dodge. This being said it cant be placed without commiting to a karate maneuver. hence it is not truely 0 phase. A combat level or an overall level on the other hand can be placed into DCV at the start of your phase or in response via Dex roll or Fast Draw to an attack (say vs an EB). This reaction is a zero phase without aborting, but once committed cannot be switched back to OCV.

 

Although the rules indicate a switching of levels is allowable (although against the spirit of things per FAQ) I would argure that due to an even more strict adhearnace to the rule (the rule of apllicability) the skill cannot be switched after commitment.

 

Force wall was always a fun one in this area. It was a zero phase entangle until Fred. The spririt of the rule sometime overides pure mechanics. (I had to make an ego roll to write this as I am a well know mechanics freak!)

 

Mechanically another funny thing is when using a cheap level (a three pointer for example). You have a base CV of 10 and you commit 2 of them into defense and do a martial strike. Feeling safe at your 14 DCV you get tagged on a low roll and take two inches of knockback. This drives you out of your maneuver. You are no longer in a martial strike. Your DCV is now 10. As soon as the maneuver no longer applies, neither does the specific level. 2 8 point levels still leaves you with a 12 DCV.

 

Well now this is an entirely different can of worms!!!!

 

I am sure you will all disagree with me, but we will see! Maybe you all play it this way. I will argue this to be correct.

 

Also no comment on full move martial attacks and tunnelling (oh MY!)

[Agent X]

We don't really worry about "action" on levels. You use them in a phase as they come up and you use them once (each level) per phase in our games. Whatever you used them for are where they are "at" until your next phase.

[Dynamo]

My house rule is that zero-phase actions like turning powers on and off, switching points in multipowers, and allocating skills levels are a special case of zero-phase actions that can be performed only once per phase. This comes with a reminder that an attack action or any two half-phase actions will end the phase and no further actions may be taken in the same segment.

 

Does this mean that you can half-move based on your full Flight slot, switch all but 2 points (1" to stay aloft) to your EB slot and pound the target? Sure, as long all your multipower points were all in your Flight slot at the beginning of your phase. It does prevent you from attacking and immediately going Desolid. You'll have to wait for the next segment and Abort your next phase.

 

After reading some of the other posts, I consider allowing second and subsequent instances of these actions with an appropriate Power Skill roll at increasing penalties (likely -0, -2, -4, -6, etc...). Any thoughts?