Comic Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 I'm trying to come up with how to implement an 'en passant' maneuver that works as an extra HTH attack under limited circumstances (mainly triggered by an opponent doing a half move -- like standing up or taking a step) on an opponent in or passing through an adjacent hex. I'm not sure whether to build it as +1 SPD, as an Extra Limb, as a martial maneuver, as a triggered attack, or as an MPA. Is there something I'm overlooking on how to simply implement this idea I've seen in other games (chess, for one) for exploiting an opening created by an opponent's tactics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack I think Trigger is what you are looking for, here. I've gotten to using Trigger to replicate any time I want to act-without-taking-an-action (even to the point of replacing damage shield), and applying Trigger to powers can let you do alot of things that appear in genre that are otherwise very difficult to do in the hero system. Just keep a close eye on trigger... anything that lets a character take extra actions becomes in some ways more SPD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack Have your character be faster or hold a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack I'm trying to come up with how to implement an 'en passant' maneuver that works as an extra HTH attack under limited circumstances (mainly triggered by an opponent doing a half move -- like standing up or taking a step) on an opponent in or passing through an adjacent hex. I'm not sure whether to build it as +1 SPD, as an Extra Limb, as a martial maneuver, as a triggered attack, or as an MPA. Is there something I'm overlooking on how to simply implement this idea I've seen in other games (chess, for one) for exploiting an opening created by an opponent's tactics? Fantasy Hero has optional rules dealing exactly with the situation you describe. see page 157 Fantasy Hero ■ Chapter Three Ignoring Opponents & Interposing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack I'm trying to come up with how to implement an 'en passant' maneuver that works as an extra HTH attack under limited circumstances (mainly triggered by an opponent doing a half move -- like standing up or taking a step) on an opponent in or passing through an adjacent hex. I'm not sure whether to build it as +1 SPD, as an Extra Limb, as a martial maneuver, as a triggered attack, or as an MPA. Is there something I'm overlooking on how to simply implement this idea I've seen in other games (chess, for one) for exploiting an opening created by an opponent's tactics? As a general rule, having an extra limb has no effect on the number or timing of your attacks. How to build something like this is probably a matter of genre and point totals to an extent, and also whether it is a killing or normal attack (just for build purposes). I thought there was something like this in UMA, but I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbarron Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack Thinking outside the box, maybe you could build a continuous, AE attack that only does damage under specific situations...like someone like "standing up or taking a step" when the PC is in combat mode. Make the attack be enough points to cover most of the PCs attacks, although lessening the APs in the attack to reflect its unusual nature wouldn't be unwise. Getting an attack off without planning it could easily justify it being at less than full power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack Opportunity Attacker Combat Reflexes Superior Combat Reflexes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack Perhaps add another standard (or martial if you prefer) maneuver. Give it similar damage bonus (based on the target's velocity, not the attacker's) to a Move By, but with less penalty (since it is the target and not the attacker who must initiate in a sense). Perhaps either allow multiple sequential attacks like a Move By (if multiple opponents go past in the same Phase) OR allow an abort to the maneuver (I'd advise against both). Just an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCUBA Hero Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack I'd do it with a Trigger - kind of like the Riposte from UMA. (Actually, I'd like to see Riposte in 6E as a Trigger, instead of a Triggered Damage Shield.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack Perhaps add another standard (or martial if you prefer) maneuver. Give it similar damage bonus (based on the target's velocity' date=' not the attacker's) to a Move By, but with less penalty (since it is the target and not the attacker who must initiate in a sense). Perhaps either allow multiple sequential attacks like a Move By (if multiple opponents go past in the same Phase) OR allow an abort to the maneuver (I'd advise against both).[/quote'] Not to toot my own horn too much, but I just realized this kinda helps the whole free pass by thing. Running past someone would allow them some extra damage in an attack, and since you can't accelerate or decelerate twice in a single move, they'd have to basically come to a stop or move very slowly past to avoid it. It also has an appealing Aikido like feel to it, and has the potential for interesting martial maneuvers if a Target Falls element is added to it and such. But it doesn't delve into the whole "attack of opportunity" pit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
braincraft Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack Thinking outside the box' date=' maybe you could build a continuous, AE attack that only does damage under specific situations...like someone like "standing up or taking a step" when the PC is in combat mode. Make the attack be enough points to cover most of the PCs attacks, although lessening the APs in the attack to reflect its unusual nature wouldn't be unwise. Getting an attack off without planning it could easily justify it being at less than full power.[/quote'] Or you could use Transform. Major Transform AoE Radius Continuous 0 END: All Opponents to Opponent with Susceptibility (taking move actions within reach of character) Transform for everything! 6e could be 15 pages if you define all powers as special cases of Transform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maur Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack Opportunity Attacker Combat Reflexes Superior Combat Reflexes Wow, at those costs you'd be better off just building a character with Extra Speed and a limitation of 'only for attacks against opponents moving passed or more than 1" near the character' 30 Active gets you +3spd for only 10 or 15 pts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack Wow, at those costs you'd be better off just building a character with Extra Speed and a limitation of 'only for attacks against opponents moving passed or more than 1" near the character' 30 Active gets you +3spd for only 10 or 15 pts. True if using super-heroic rules. Under heroic rules that may not always be the case since anything above a 4 SPD normally costs double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maur Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack True if using super-heroic rules. Under heroic rules that may not always be the case since anything above a 4 SPD normally costs double. Well, then you might need to tell Simon that as I had no trouble adding 3 SPD to my 3 SPD Heroic character by going to the powers tab and putting in the ability. 30 Active, 12 Real (might be less, depends on the generosity of the GM). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack Well' date=' then you might need to tell Simon that as I had no trouble adding 3 SPD to my 3 SPD Heroic character by going to the powers tab and putting in the ability. 30 Active, 12 Real (might be less, depends on the generosity of the GM).[/quote'] That's because Characteristics bought as Powers are not affected by NCM, per the rules. In a normal HEROIC level campaign Powers are not generally available to characters outside of any special structure in place such as a magic system or a package deal. That's the entire reason Talents / Super Skills exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack Wow, at those costs you'd be better off just building a character with Extra Speed and a limitation of 'only for attacks against opponents moving passed or more than 1" near the character' 30 Active gets you +3spd for only 10 or 15 pts. A) Not in a heroic campaign Limited SPD still wont allow you to take more than one action per Segment, Trigger will C) With limited SPD technically you have to be "holding" an action to use it for the purpose its limited for, and also you would have to win a DEX off to go first. Not so with a Trigger. D) The act of "holding" an action for X purpose on limited SPD would interfere with holding your normal actions, which is clumsy. It also interferes with taking recoveries, covering people, some extra time limited power activations, haymakers, and other circumstances where actions bleed over into later segments. E) In addition to not suffering from such rules issues, the Triggered approach is also more functional than merely 3 SPD when it auto resets as itis usable as often as the situation occurs...I place a DEX/5 expiration between Phases on some versions just to prevent it from getting stupid, but by default a auto-reset trigger has no such limitation. I.e., if the circumstance occurred repeatedly, like a rush of people ran past the character or a bunch of flunkies all fled at once (or other stimuli a particular Trigger is geared towards), the character could mete out strikes on each of them far in excess of a mere plus three, and all in the same segment rather than spread out across a turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Samson Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack I agree with those in the Trigger camp. I would define it as "when an opponent travels through an adjacent hex". I would buy it without "personal control" but don't buy it with "misfire" or you might knock out someone passing by you in a convenience store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTaylor Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack Generally speaking, special abilities like this are built often as talents (which is what Shrike did), which are done using powers, usually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack Well' date=' then you might need to tell Simon that as I had no trouble adding 3 SPD to my 3 SPD Heroic character by going to the powers tab and putting in the ability. 30 Active, 12 Real (might be less, depends on the generosity of the GM).[/quote'] HD is not a replacement for knowledge of the rules, or for a Ref's judgment. By default any Characteristic purchased as a Power is not effected by NCM, as the presumption is that it is being purchased as a Power. It is up to the Ref whether or not a specific instance of a purchased Characteristic should have NCM applied to it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack I'm in the trigger camp. Shrike makes a cogent argument. I would add one stipulation to using it as a trigger: I'd apply a cumulative -2 OCV penalty to each triggered attack after the first one to ensure it didn't become abusive. So, your first triggered attack would be at your OCV, your second at OCV -2, your third at OCV -4, and so on. Allowing PSLs to offset that is a judgment call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack D) The act of "holding" an action for X purpose on limited SPD would interfere with holding your normal actions, which is clumsy. It also interferes with taking recoveries, covering people, some extra time limited power activations, haymakers, and other circumstances where actions bleed over into later segments. I think limited Speed might work better for me. Remember a meta rule of Hero is "it works how the GM says it does." I'd rule that anyone buying limited Speed doesn't need to hold an action, they just get a free action on those (extra) phases. This may require you to choose between a regular action and your special action if the "trigger" occurs on your normal phase, but that also sounds more sane to me. It also might work better with Aborting your action. Triggers should still go off if you've aborted, but normally you don't get to take a new action once you Abort. I'd have to think about this a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comic Posted October 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack So, any support for Naked Advantage Autofire, Triggered, with the above mentioned conditions being the trigger? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack So' date=' any support for Naked Advantage Autofire, Triggered, with the above mentioned conditions being the trigger?[/quote'] My only issue with it is that its more than an "en passant" at that point. Its a "fists of fury en passant." Brass tacks: autofire will allow you to take multiple shots on each opponent who sets off the trigger. Is that what you are looking for? Or are you looking for a "one attack of opportunity for each target who opens themselves up" ability? If its the latter you don't want autofire - you want a trigger that automatically resets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comic Posted October 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack I was looking more for an extra attack with the ready weapon, definitely not multiple attacks against the passing target. What I'd pictured was a sort of adaptation of the Sweep maneuver to segmented movement, a recognition that segmented combat is an approximation, not the real thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Re: 'En passant' extra attack I was looking more for an extra attack with the ready weapon, definitely not multiple attacks against the passing target. What I'd pictured was a sort of adaptation of the Sweep maneuver to segmented movement, a recognition that segmented combat is an approximation, not the real thing. Sweep/Rapid Fire/Block is why I proposed a house rule using the cumulative -2 for additional attacks past the first modifier. I didn't specify "with a trigger that automatically resets," however, so I wasn't being entirely clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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