4th Edition Package Deals

[Stratosphere]

We've got one last Hero campaign in 4th edition and it's character creation time. There is some confusion on Package Deals and how to pay for them. I was hoping for some clarification, official if possible, but any feedback welcome.

 

Let's say I'm building a standard 150 point hero. The 'Thief' package deal has Talents/Skills/Etc that total to 20 points. It also has disadvantages in it that also total 20 points. So the package cost is listed as 0. After selecting this package for my character I:

 

a) Still have 150 points available to spend on my character as the disadvantages in a package deal are meant to offset the Talents/Skills/Etc as well as 75 more points of disadvantages to come up with (as 75 of the points are 'base' for the character).

 

I now have 130 points left to spend as have to take in account that I spent 20 points on Talents/Skills/Etc

 

My opinion is that A is the proper way to do it. Otherwise what would be the point to a package deal? If B was the way to work it, then how is it different than just buying the Talents/Skills/Etc and then just buying the disadvantages in the normal way.

 

The GM says that B is the way to go as the sample characters are all written this way. And indeed if you look at the sample thief in the book, the Talents/Skills/Etc from the Thief Package Deal ARE in the total of his 150 points spent. And the disadvantages from the Package Deal are part of the 75 points of disadvantages that the player must come up with (75 of the 150 being 'base'). Whereas if A was the way to go, I would expect to see 150 points of powers above and beyond what he got from the Thief Package Deal, as well as 75 points of other disadvantages. Or only see a total of 130 points spent (the Package Deal being free as the gains and losses on it are cancelled out).

 

Any thoughts? References to rules in the book or any other official info to support either method are most welcome. And thanks in advance for reading and/or responding.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: 4th Edition Package Deals

 

By both 4th and 5th edition rulebooks, is the correct answer.

 

Games I've played in have often used a house rule that the Disadvantages of a Package Deal don't count toward the 75 points of Disadvantages in character creation, though, so in this case a) would work since the Disads equal the Skills and Talents. If the Disads were only 10 points, though, the other 10 points of Skills/Talents would come out of the 150 points you get from the base points and other Disadvantages. If that makes sense...I feel like I'm kinda rambling.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 4th Edition Package Deals

 

It's . I personally use [a] for Race Packages however.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 4th Edition Package Deals

 

It's . I personally use [a] for Race Packages however.

 

Ditto.

 

Remember that in 4th Edition there might also have been a small package bonus based on the number of points in Skills (and I think Perks) in the package. I believe it was 1 point for each 5 full points in Skills (and Perks?), or something like that. I can't remember if that was also counted toward Disadvantages. I think it was. There is no such bonus in 5th Edition.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 4th Edition Package Deals

 

B is correct. Doing it A style means that anyone who takes a package essentially gets free Disadvantage points.

 

Which would you rather be? A 75 point character with up to 75 points in Disadvantages, or a 75 point character with up to 100 points in Disadvantages?

[Sean Waters]

Re: 4th Edition Package Deals

 

You don't want to hear what I have to say.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 4th Edition Package Deals

 

Ditto.

 

Remember that in 4th Edition there might also have been a small package bonus based on the number of points in Skills (and I think Perks) in the package. I believe it was 1 point for each 5 full points in Skills (and Perks?), or something like that. I can't remember if that was also counted toward Disadvantages. I think it was. There is no such bonus in 5th Edition.

 

The 4th Edition Package Bonus did reduce the cost of the Package -- they were essentially free Base or Experience Points only to offset the cost of a Package. They are gone in 5th Edition, and I'm glad of it. The Package bonus nonsense was an accounting pain for someone like me who does randomizers, modular packages, and choice groups.

[Stratosphere]

Re: 4th Edition Package Deals

 

You don't want to hear what I have to say.

 

Of course I want to hear what you have to say.

 

And thanks to all for the info.

 

So it seems if B is the method, then there isn't any difference between buying the thief package deal and just buying the powers

and disadvantages seperately and completely unrelated. In either case you're just buying 20 points of powers and 20 points of

disadvantages. So in either case you are left with 130 points to spend, and 55 more points of disadvantages to find. Which makes

me wonder why Package Deals were ever there to begin with (other than to speed up character creation). And why a package deal

has a package deal cost, since it means nothing. All that matters is the powers and disadvantage points spent.

 

So if I had a package with 20 points in powers and 10 in disadvantages, I'd just have 130 points left to spend, and 65 more points

of disadvantages to find in my 150 base character (with a 75 base). Kinda funny, but the creator software doesn't work like this in

the least way. In this case I would have only spent 10 points of my 150, not 20. And in the 20/20 case above I still have all of my

150 points left for purchase. Was this known to be a bug in the software?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 4th Edition Package Deals

 

So it seems if B is the method, then there isn't any difference between buying the thief package deal and just buying the powers

and disadvantages seperately and completely unrelated. In either case you're just buying 20 points of powers and 20 points of

disadvantages. So in either case you are left with 130 points to spend, and 55 more points of disadvantages to find. Which makes

me wonder why Package Deals were ever there to begin with (other than to speed up character creation). And why a package deal

has a package deal cost, since it means nothing. All that matters is the powers and disadvantage points spent.

 

It is there just to speed up character creation. It creates a common ground as to the minimum abilities of the character type in question, and the disadvantages all such characters share.

 

IIRC, Killer Shrike once commented that his games tend to include two package deals for a fantasy race. The first is the physical abilities that come from being such a race biologically. If you take that package, you are (for example) an Elf. The second is the abilities a typical member of the race would have due to culture - what would an Elf learn growing up in Elf society.

 

If you take the physical, but not cultural, package, you have an Elf raised outside Elven society. If you took the cultural package, but not the physical package, you would have someone of another race raised by the elves.

 

They aren't meant to be extra points because you picked a standard archetype for the game in question.

 

I like the present model - I don't think how you spend your points should influience how many points you have to spend. The old theory, a freebie point for having X points in skills, seemed like it was waying "these skills aren't all that useful, so we'll give you a discount, but only if you buy these specific ones". If an ability is not as useful as its cost would indicate, the cost needs to be changed. Perhaps that change only applies in this game (ie the skill wolud be more useful in other settings) or perhaps it's overpriced overall.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: 4th Edition Package Deals

 

B is correct. Doing it A style means that anyone who takes a package essentially gets free Disadvantage points.

 

Which would you rather be? A 75 point character with up to 75 points in Disadvantages, or a 75 point character with up to 100 points in Disadvantages?

This is true. However, from a GM's perspective, you might use the A style deliberately, exactly because you want to encourage the players to take package deals. For example, maybe you want to encourage the players to build characters that fit the specific feel and tone of the game world, rather than just building generic fantasy characters (or worse, characters inappropriate for the game world).

 

Instead of using the GM stick, and just telling them they can't play a bloodthirsty barbarian in your world of court intrigue and detailed magic, you can use the GM carrot, and essentially offer them free points (in the form of an A-style package deal) for making a character who fits the world better. Players loves them some free points!

 

I think the key to using the A-style package deal usefully is to not have them be generic. For example, rather than just a vanilla "Wizard" package, there are different packages for "Order of the Silver Star" or "Circle of the Scarlet Silks" or "Spellweaver of Areth Ildur." Rather than just "Warrior," you might have "Knight of the Lion" or "Midician Blackblade Mercenary," etc.

[Stratosphere]

Re: 4th Edition Package Deals

 

Derek, that's an excellent recommendation. And really what I was trying to do with my 2 package deals (a northern wastes barbarian racial package, and an enraging axe lord profession package).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 4th Edition Package Deals

 

It is there just to speed up character creation. It creates a common ground as to the minimum abilities of the character type in question, and the disadvantages all such characters share.

 

IIRC, Killer Shrike once commented that his games tend to include two package deals for a fantasy race. The first is the physical abilities that come from being such a race biologically. If you take that package, you are (for example) an Elf. The second is the abilities a typical member of the race would have due to culture - what would an Elf learn growing up in Elf society.

 

If you take the physical, but not cultural, package, you have an Elf raised outside Elven society. If you took the cultural package, but not the physical package, you would have someone of another race raised by the elves.

 

They aren't meant to be extra points because you picked a standard archetype for the game in question.

 

In essence, yes.

 

I like the present model - I don't think how you spend your points should influience how many points you have to spend. The old theory, a freebie point for having X points in skills, seemed like it was waying "these skills aren't all that useful, so we'll give you a discount, but only if you buy these specific ones". If an ability is not as useful as its cost would indicate, the cost needs to be changed. Perhaps that change only applies in this game (ie the skill wolud be more useful in other settings) or perhaps it's overpriced overall.

 

Agreed

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 4th Edition Package Deals

 

As an aside, Stratosphere, here's a lot of Fantasy Packages and my thoughts on Package Deals in general, which you might find useful:

 

 

 

Race Package guidelines

A lot of Race Packages

 

Way more Profession Packages Than You'll Ever Really Need

[Sean Waters]

Re: 4th Edition Package Deals

 

..............................

I like the present model - I don't think how you spend your points should influience how many points you have to spend. The old theory, a freebie point for having X points in skills, seemed like it was waying "these skills aren't all that useful, so we'll give you a discount, but only if you buy these specific ones". If an ability is not as useful as its cost would indicate, the cost needs to be changed. Perhaps that change only applies in this game (ie the skill wolud be more useful in other settings) or perhaps it's overpriced overall.

 

Well, another way of seeing it is that Hero is all about choice and by restricting your choices i.e. reducing the number of points you can actually play with you are giving up some of that choice and so should get some sort of discount for it. I build characters with KS: Poetry and make up skills like 'Dancing' (because it isn't a KS and it isn't a PS and it certainly isn't a hobby, it just is), so I really don't care about the points so much as the principle. It is not that some skills are not worth so much, it is that if you are trained as a Palace Guard, then your opponents know at least something of what to expect.

 

In any event not eveyone treats all package deals equally, as evidenced by this thread: racial 'deals' seem to be a popular exception, treating racial disadvantages as 'balancing' racial costs, which is just another way of awarding yourself more points for that concept, or rather a restriction on concept. One way of looking at that is that it cheapens everything the character buys, as he is effectively working off more points.

 

I'm not saying that is wrong either, but I am saying that awarding a small bonus to a package deal is probbly less disruptive to overall game balance than treating package disadvantages as balancing package costs, at least while we have XP awards which are independent of character point totals (hint hint). What? Too subtle?