Normal Human

[Lucius]

Second Edit: for further context

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70094

 

This is the original thread that this thread is a sort of response to.

 

 

Edit: I thought I should put an explanation up here.

 

First, this is a self-consciously absurd character. It's not a player character (for one thing an automaton can't be played) and it's not really meant to be an automaton a player could buy either. If I were running a game with the Bayang I might include something like this with more tinkering but I'd change the name - unless I'm going for a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy feel and plan to use a lot of bizarre linguistic "coincidences" for humor value.

 

The character exists for two reasons (well, besides being another excuse to play with my shiny new Hero Designer program.)

 

1. To make that point that putting Normal Characteristic Maxima on a character does not in any way, shape, or form make that character a "Normal Human" (as we usually use those words in English anyway, Bayangi doesn't count.)

 

2. To demonstrate that the Normal Characteristic Maxima Disadvantage, or rule if it's used universally, doesn't prevent the creation of weird, unbalanced, or munchkin characters - although the "florist friars" do a better job of that (see below, I'm going to post something about them.)

 

 

 

Normal Human

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

17/47 STR -8 12- / 18- Lift 263.9kg/16.9tons; 3d6/9d6 [1/4]

23 DEX 3 14- OCV: 8/DCV: 8

0 CON -20 9-

10 BODY 0 11-

28 INT 18 15- PER Roll 15-

0 EGO 0 Automaton

15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6

0 COM -5 9-

 

3/10 PD 6 Total: 3/10 PD (3/6 rPD)

3/10 ED 9 Total: 3/10 ED (3/6 rED)

4 SPD 7 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12

0 REC -16

0 END 0

Total Characteristic Cost: -23

 

Movement:

Flight: 17"/68"

 

Cost Powers END

45 Normal Human: Automaton (Takes No STUN (loses abilities when takes BODY))

5 Weapon Bearing Tentacles: Extra Limbs (6)

15 Normal Human: Damage Resistance (5 PD/5 ED)

13 +15 STR, 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4) (19 Active Points); Only with Extra Limbs (-1/2)

16 +12 DEX, 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+0) (36 Active Points); Only with Extra Limbs (-1/2), Requires A Tactics Skill Roll (-1/2), Linked (STR; -1/4)

1 Normal Human durability: Life Support (Longevity: 200 Years)

Normal Human Senses

12 1) High Range Radio Perception (Radio Group)

3 2) Ultrasonic Perception (Hearing Group)

5 3) Nightvision

3 4) Bump Of Direction

10 5) Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees) with Sight Group

33 Normal Human Powers: Elemental Control, 66-point powers

27 1) Small but Deadly: Shrinking (0.1875 m tall, 0.0977 kg mass, -6 PER Rolls to perceive character, +6 DCV, takes +9" KB), Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (67 Active Points); No Growth Momentum (-1/4)

34 2) Advanced Materiels: Density Increase (3,200 kg mass, +30 STR, +6 PD/ED, -6" KB), Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (67 Active Points)

33 3) Flight 17", Position Shift, x4 Noncombat, 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4), No Turn Mode (+1/4) (66 Active Points) [1 cc]

Weapons (These foci are "personal" and will self-destruct if anyone but a Bayang or Bayangi robot attempts to utilize them)

13 1) Assorted Weapons: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6-1 (d6 - 1 / 1d6+1 w/STR), Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Any Technology available ; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Variable Advantage (+1 1/2 Advantages; +3) (47 Active Points); Fuel Dependent (fuel is Common; must refuel Once per 6 Hours; -1), OAF Durable (-1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2)

15 2) Multiple Weapons: 8 (15 Active Points)

42 3) Energy Shield Generator: (Total: 102 Active Cost, 42 Real Cost) Life Support (Immunity All terrestrial poisons and chemical warfare agents; Immunity: All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents; Safe in High Pressure; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Self-Contained Breathing) (39 Active Points); Fuel Dependent (fuel is Very Common; must refuel Once per 6 Hours; -3/4), OIF Durable (-1/2) (Real Cost: 17) plus Force Field (1 PD/1 ED/1 Mental Defense/1 Power Defense) (Protect Carried Items), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4), Hardened (+1/4) (63 Active Points); OIF Durable (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Ablative BODY Only (-1/2) (Real Cost: 25) [1 cc]

15 4) Multiple Generators: 8 (15 Active Points)

 

Skills

3 Tactics 15-

3 Fast Draw 14-

3 Stealth 14-

3 Concealment 15-

8 Defense Maneuver I-III

3 Security Systems 15-

3 Shadowing 15-

3 Tracking 15-

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 369

Total Cost: 346

 

200+ Disadvantages

20 Normal Characteristic Maxima

10 Age: 60+ (Average age of Normal Humans is usually over 100 Earth years - built to last)

15 Reputation: Run! It's a Normal Human!, 14- (Extreme; Known Only To A Small Group)

15 Distinctive Features: The Normal Human is a metallic disc or saucer shaped flying object, circular, with a dome on one side (usually the side facing "up" when in a gravity well) containing sensors and a weapons turret on the other side (that is, the side that is usually the "bottom.") To either side of the sensor dome are a pair of insect like mechanical arms, and the turret sprouts a half dozen powerful extendible metal "tentacles." (Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

30 Enraged: In combat with pre-programmed target (Common), go 14-, recover 8-

30 Self destruct sequence Susceptibility: Any attempt to reprogram, control, or otherwise tamper with either software or hardware (Can also be triggered remotely by the Bayang) 3d6 damage per Segment (Uncommon)

10 Vulnerability: 2 x Effect Double damage or effect from electrical or magnetic attacks (Uncommon)

10 Physical Limitation: Can only be repaired by Bayang who know the passcodes; other attempts to repair trigger self-destruct sequence (Infrequently, Greatly Impairing)

10 Physical Limitation: Cannot Speak (Infrequently, Greatly Impairing)

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 346

 

Background/History: The Bayang are masters of robotics and have a number of robot types specialized for assassination or combat. In their native language, "Normal" means "dangerous or damaging" and "Human," from roots meaning "Moves by itself," means a robot. "Normal Human" could be translated as "Killer Robot" or "Automated Weapon."

 

Personality/Motivation: This particular Normal Human is an assassin, or hunter/killer robot.

 

Quote: Ominous Hummmmmmmmm...........

 

Powers/Tactics: Because of differences in Bayang physiology and culture their development of missile weapons was retarded. Due to this bias against ranged attacks, even their Normal Humans tend to be designed to attack "close up" rather than having ranged weapons. The standard weapon is a cylinder capable of projecting a force field in the form of a force blade, bludgeon, or other melee type weapon, although heat, cold, short range radioactive bursts, or other technological effects are possible.

 

Appearance: Utterly inhuman. Specifically, the Normal Human is a metallic disc or saucer shaped flying object, circular, with a dome on one side (usually the side facing "up" when in a gravity well) containing sensors and a weapons turret on the other side (that is, the side that is usually the "bottom.") To either side of the sensor dome are a pair of insect like mechanical arms, and the turret sprouts a half dozen powerful extendible metal "tentacles."

 

Campaign Use: Demonstrating the absurdity of Normal Characteristic Maxima, especially as a benchmark for defining "Normal Human." Demonstrates the absurdity of the Age Disadvantage too. Also serves as an example of the kind of robot the Bayang might use, aside from their robot vehicles.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

yeah. yeah. You made your point and managed to reveal your inner munchkin and perversity.. I think this is much more what I want anyway

 

quote=prestidigitator;1764685]

 

The original idea presented in this thread does interest me because it changes NCM from being this player-limiting meta-Disadvantage into a true situational limitation that would affect the actual character (I would go with incorporating heroic situational rules instead of, not in addition to Characteristics limits myself). I think I'd have to consider carefully the details of what heroic rules I'd really want to partially utilize in any particular game (as Sean points out), and I'd also have to think carefully about how many points it would be worth. Maybe Physical Limitations would be easier to use for that instead of completely redoing NCM. I don't know.

 

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

yeah. yeah. You made your point and managed to reveal your inner munchkin and perversity.. I think this is much more what I want anyway although I'd definitely include heroic characteristic limits

 

quote=prestidigitator;1764685]

 

The original idea presented in this thread does interest me because it changes NCM from being this player-limiting meta-Disadvantage into a true situational limitation that would affect the actual character (I would go with incorporating heroic situational rules instead of, not in addition to Characteristics limits myself). I think I'd have to consider carefully the details of what heroic rules I'd really want to partially utilize in any particular game (as Sean points out), and I'd also have to think carefully about how many points it would be worth. Maybe Physical Limitations would be easier to use for that instead of completely redoing NCM. I don't know.

 

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

yeah. yeah. You made your point and managed to reveal your inner munchkin and perversity..

 

And I've been having fun playing around with Hero Designer, now that I finally bought it.

 

I want to thank you for inspiring this particular design, it would probably never have happened without you.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary doesn't think Lucius Alexander's perversity was ever in question....

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Interesting, it never would have occured to me to abuse a disad. Now I can call my 14d6 RKA a transport people to happy fun dimension ray and still keep a code against killing.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

I'm sorry that was needlessly snarky

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

Interesting' date=' it never would have occured to me to abuse a disad. Now I can call my 14d6 RKA a transport people to happy fun dimension ray and still keep a code against killing.[/quote']

 

The Disadvantage acts to limit the purchase of certain characteristics by increasing the cost. I don't see where this is abusing it any more than any other character that takes the Disad and fails to buy characteristics over the limit.

 

If you want a Killing Attack and a Code Against Killing, take the Killing Attack as Stun Only so that it can't actually kill anyone.

 

If you want a Killing Attack that you can describe as "transport people to happy fun dimension" you'd need an "All or nothing" limit on it so that people are either transported or not - it wouldn't make sense in that case for the ability to be able to injure people. For that matter I'm not entirely sure it would make sense even then - someone with Resurrection would therefore be able to find a way back from the happy fun dimension. Whether this would actually be compatible with a Code Against Killing is something I'm not sure of either....I think sending someone away to a place they can never return from is psychologically close to killing them, whether it's bought as a Killing Attack or as Extradimensional Movement Usable as Attack.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary reminds me that my ride is waiting....

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

I'm sorry that was needlessly snarky

 

I caught this before I left.

 

Don't feel too bad, it's a pretty absurd character and I know it.

 

LA

p

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

And I've been having fun playing around with Hero Designer, now that I finally bought it.

 

I want to thank you for inspiring this particular design, it would probably never have happened without you.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary doesn't think Lucius Alexander's perversity was ever in question....

 

 

Um. you're welcome??????

[Sean Waters]

Re: Normal Human

 

Toclaphane?

[Lucius]

Re: More Normal Humans

 

An old example reposted, and a new analogy. Or, why the Normal Characteristic Maxima rule is like the Flintstone car.

 

 

Say I am creating a pair of flower-selling monks in a heroic game with 75 base points and up to 75 disadvantages. Brother Rose has a Dex of 20 (costs 30) and spends 50 pts on SPD (10 pts ups it to 4, the "Max," and another 40 ups it to 6.) That costs 80 pts, and if he sells off 3" Running for -6 pts he still has a ground speed half again a normal Human's, and has all his points from Disads to pay for botany, flower arranging, and what the heck, he'll study some canon law too. His sidekick Brother Orchid has a STR of 40 costing 50 pts, and uses some disad points to buy his flowery skills, and still comes in as a "weaker than character" DNPC.

 

Now, is any sane Game Operations Director going to permit this pair? No, they will probably change their names to Brother Ragweed and Brother Crabgrass and tell the player to toss them on the compost pile. But that is exactly what they would have had to do if there WERE no "Normal Characteristic Maxima," except that the outrageous characteristics would have been an 8 SPD and a 60 STR.

 

The message to Game Operation Directors is - You, and only you, can prevent florist friars. The Characteristic Maxima rule can't do it for you. And if it doesn't, what good is it?

 

 

You remember the "car" on the Flinststones - the family piles in, then they all put their feet on the ground and start running. The car doesn't do any of the work for them and meanwhile they have to lug around this wood and stone contraption.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary goes "shhh...don't mention the Flintstones car too loudly or someone we know will be wanting points for it...."

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

Like all Disadvantages NCM is a perfectly useful Disadvantage if (and only if) it disadvantages the character. Your build above would not qualify for any points from the NCM Disadvantage. Leastwise, not from me.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

Like all Disadvantages NCM is a perfectly useful Disadvantage if (and only if) it disadvantages the character. Your build above would not qualify for any points from the NCM Disadvantage. Leastwise' date=' not from me.[/quote']

 

If a character actually has spent at least 20 extra points on characteristics due to having No Characteristic Maxima, would you say that the character has been disadvantaged?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary stops and smells the roses

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

If a character actually has spent at least 20 extra points on characteristics due to having No Characteristic Maxima' date=' would you say that the character has been disadvantaged?[/quote']

 

Probably. As always, context is important.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Like all Disadvantages NCM is a perfectly useful Disadvantage if (and only if) it disadvantages the character. Your build above would not qualify for any points from the NCM Disadvantage. Leastwise' date=' not from me.[/quote']

 

In any game where PCs and Notable NPCs tend to or are expected to have Characteristics above the NCM limits it disadvantages the Player (Also I suppose the Character; as much as anything can).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Like all Disadvantages NCM is a perfectly useful Disadvantage if (and only if) it disadvantages the character. Your build above would not qualify for any points from the NCM Disadvantage. Leastwise' date=' not from me.[/quote']

 

If a character actually has spent at least 20 extra points on characteristics due to having No Characteristic Maxima, would you say that the character has been disadvantaged?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary stops and smells the roses

 

How is it that a build that reduces the character's STR from 60 to 40, or his SPD from 8 to 6, not a valid disadvantage? Those florist friars are much more disadvantaged than any character I have ever seen built with the NCM disadvantage!

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

How is it that a build that reduces the character's STR from 60 to 40' date=' or his SPD from 8 to 6, not a valid disadvantage? Those florist friars are much more disadvantaged than any character I have ever seen built with the NCM disadvantage![/quote']

 

I guess in a way the Florist Friars are anti-munchkin. Instead of dodging away from the consequences of a Disadvantage, they charge into it head on.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary adds that they charge into it at high speed and full strength, so to speak.

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

How is it that a build that reduces the character's STR from 60 to 40' date=' or his SPD from 8 to 6, not a valid disadvantage? Those florist friars are much more disadvantaged than any character I have ever seen built with the NCM disadvantage![/quote']

I was referring to the first character posted. Apologies for not being more clear.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Normal Human

 

In the unlikely event that I actually run a game, NCM is either not allowed, or applied to everyone for free. Otherwise, what's to stop someone from looking at their sheet, noticing that none of their characteristics are over 20, and taking NCM for free points?

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

In the unlikely event that I actually run a game' date=' NCM is either not allowed, or applied to everyone for free. Otherwise, what's to stop someone from looking at their sheet, noticing that none of their characteristics are over 20, and taking NCM for free points?[/quote']

You.

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

Why do you have to have characteristics in excess of 20 before you can consider NCM? Depending on the group as a whole, if everyone else has stats way over 20, and you are the sole exception, why couldn't you use it?

[The Dude]

Re: Normal Human

 

Why do you have to have characteristics in excess of 20 before you can consider NCM? Depending on the group as a whole' date=' if everyone else has stats way over 20, and you are the sole exception, why couldn't you use it?[/quote']

 

That's mighty close to pondering the un-ponderable.

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

Why do you have to have characteristics in excess of 20 before you can consider NCM? Depending on the group as a whole' date=' if everyone else has stats way over 20, and you are the sole exception, why couldn't you use it?[/quote']

A Disadvantage that does not disadvantage your character is not worth any points to your character.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

A Disadvantage that does not disadvantage your character is not worth any points to your character.

 

It does disadvantage your character so no worries.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

This seems to sum up the debate. When have you ever seen a character take NCM if they have significant stats in excess of the breakpoints? While Utech suggests the disad can only be applied if the character has stats in excess of the NCM limits, I believe most or all published examples of characters with the 20 point disadvantage do not have stats over the limit, or have very small amounts over the breakpoint.

 

jtelson, on the other hand, believes the character is disadvantaged by lacking the potential to buy up those abilities limited by NCM without paying double. Yet only characters not taking advantage of that potential, or using a workaround, ever take the disadvantage.

 

In addition to characters who don't have stats over the NCM limit, characters can use approaches like the Defender Exploit (which most indicate they would not allow - often right after arguing we should use the rules as written). More subtle workarounds exist - Flight, No Turn Mode, Only on a Flat Surface/only in water (it's not running/swimming so it's not capped). The character pays double for Running, Usable as Flight, but not for Flight, Usable as Running. Armor or Force Field instead of PD, ED and Damage Resistance.

 

The confusion, to me, is that Normal Characteristic Maxima is the limitation. It imposes a maximum, above which the costs double. It does not make the character a "normal human". Characters who are tough (high PD/ED) seem much more like a "normal human" than one with an armored carapace or a force field, yet only PD/ED faces a cost adjustment. A strong human seems more likely than one able to spit gouts of flame or move objects with his mind. You can't run fast, but you can fly.

 

In my view, "these abilities cost extra" is not appropriately a disadvantage. If it is, then it should be expanded to address variances in the type of abilities, their breadth and scope ("mental powers cost double"), the ease of any workaround ("even if they have a limitation") and the impact on cost (what if they cost 50% more? 3x normal cost? cannot be purchased at all?). That would probably grant characters with NCM even more points - just bump it to "can't circumvent with limitations; can't purchase at all" if you don't have any characteristics over 20.

 

What's that? He's disadvantaged if he changes his mind? Let's say I have NCM 20, and I want to buy a higher STR. Once I hit 40 (cost of 40 from my starting point of 20), I'll spend 20 points buying off NCM - which costs 0 xp (I get 20 back since my STR no longer costs double) and carry on from there. Maybe instead of a "Restricted Purchase" disad suite, NCM should be replaced by a "Prespent XP" disadvantage - NCM gives me 20 points' XP spent on characteristics up front.

 

In the unlikely event that I actually run a game' date=' NCM is either not allowed, or applied to everyone for free. Otherwise, what's to stop someone from looking at their sheet, noticing that none of their characteristics are over 20, and taking NCM for free points?[/quote']

 

You.

 

Why do you have to have characteristics in excess of 20 before you can consider NCM? Depending on the group as a whole' date=' if everyone else has stats way over 20, and you are the sole exception, why couldn't you use it?[/quote']

 

A Disadvantage that does not disadvantage your character is not worth any points to your character.

 

It does disadvantage your character so no worries.