Normal Human

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Having NCM on the initial build may not limit the character' date=' but it does limit how the character develops from there. If you say a character that's supposed to be a "trained normal" can't take NCM because he starts with nothing above 20, there's nothing mechanics-wise stopping him from bumping his STR up to 50 within a few game sessions. Using GM fiat to say he can't buy his STR up because of the original character concept and disallowing the use of NCM as a Disad is as bad or worse than the opposite situation where the character is getting a "free" 20 points.[/quote']

 

Assuming this is the case, I refer you to Markdoc:

 

Not necessarily, but if you took a disad, ensuring that you could not acquire/use flight, the character would be at a disadvantage in any sort of ongoing game, so this seems reasonable.

 

Not necessarily, but if you took a disad, ensuring that you could not acquire/use mental powers, the character would be at a disadvantage in any sort of ongoing game, so this seems reasonable.

 

Not worth as much points as being unable to ever acquire or use the powers, but again, the character would be at a disadvantage in any sort of ongoing game, so again this seems reasonable.

 

I wouldn't call it that but this one we've actually seen in game - a character in a Fantasy game took a psych lim (a Geas) that he would not use armour. That certainly disadvantaged him. So yep, that's definately worth a disadvantage.

 

The long and the short of it is that in most games that run more than a few sessions, characteristic inflation is an issue. That's only reasonable given how efficient characteristics are. A character who chooses the NCM disadvantage is choosing a suboptimal (or at least more limited) development path over the longer term and it's fair enough that he gets some points for it.

 

If restrictions in the development of the character are truly a disadvantage meriting points, then ALL such restrictions should be disadvantages meriting points. The complete inability to purchase something is more restrictive than paying twice the points, and should be worth more. Broader categories of abilities being denied is more restrictive, and should be worth more. Building from 20 points for NCM, a moderately broad category doubled in cost is worth 20 points. If we add in doubled cost for all characteristics over NCM, even if purchased with limitations, that should be worth more - maybe 30 points. Make it illegal to buy them and it should probably double, so 40 points or 60 points.

 

I've had similar discussions in the past.

 

Should effects outside of your character sheet have an effect on the cost of things on your character sheet? Or should each and every character be evaluated separately?

 

Say you have a character that takes extra damage from an attack with an additional disad that states that damage from that type of attack doesn't heal "normally". Now you need something to affect the characters healing. Does the cost of the disadvantage get reduced because one of the other characters can heal others?

 

Tony Stark, IMO, in the early days, was the poster child in a lot of ways of NCM. He was "normal". Highly intelligent and very focused when he was working on something. Flighty, flaky and easily distracted by women. But his INT score could be considered within the normal range, augmented by scientific skills bought at a high level. Keep in mind that comic characters are not bought by game terms and therefore may not reflect efficiency in game terms.

 

When he is running around with Thor (90 STR), Giant Man (60 STR), Wasp (20+ DEX), Cap (most stats in excess of 20, depending on build) why can't he use NCM?

 

Why CAN he? When he was running around with Thor ("Cannot buy scientific powers or magic spells" - every other PC had scientific based powers, and most NPC's either had science or magic give them a choice of unusual one off powers as they needed them), Giant Man ("cannot have powers unrelated to size change or insect control"), the Wasp ("only allowed wasp powers linked to Shrinking"), Cap ("cannot take non-focused powers not related to augmented human physiology), he got his characteristics from a different source ("cannot buy powers or above NCM abilities without a focus").

 

Why CAN'T he? Why not, indeed? Most of his teammates could ALSO take NCM. Consider Thor (all boosted abilities were OIHID - limited characteristics don't count to NCM, remember?), Giant Man (his enhanced stats came from Growth or Shrinking, both of which were due to serums, gas or pills in those days and, even if not, Linked to his size changing powers - so still "Char as Limitation = Power"), the Wasp (NCM for the same reason as Giant Man), Cap (who IS a highly trained human normal who would NOT take NCM because his stats were "human peak", not "top of human average" - the only "Normal Human" is the only guy on the team who DOESN'T take NCM - unless you count the Super Soldier Serum as a limitation...). Iron Man just uses a different limitation for his abilities exceeding NCM. So everyone but Cap, the most "normal human" on the team, gets NCM!

[Badger]

Re: Normal Human

 

Can anyone actually tell me what a normal human is? Presumably it is someone with NCM.

 

Now we can assume that NCM can be taken by people whose Characteristics do not exceed Normal Maxima, in which case we are simply letting them off finding some additional disadvantage points for being 'normal' in an extraordinary environment - which makes no sense...

 

OR

 

...we only let them take NCM when it hurts: Mighty Normal, with his 50 STR and 25 DEX takes NCM and pays 45 points more than usual. Is it me, or would that be stupid? Why not just ignore NCM and build the character on 20 fewer disadvantage points?

 

Concept? Don't make me laugh. the concept is in how the character is ACTUALLY built, not in claiming the character is 'normal' then finding ways around it.

 

So, if we assume that you can only take NCM if you lose at least as many points as you save, it is pointless. If we assume that you can take it even if you wouldn't exceed the points anyway, it is pointless.

 

NCM is the province of the GM, not the player*. Any limits on character creation should come from there. If the player wants to build a character with 30 STR and claim thay are just highly trained, unless the GM rules otherwise, fine: they are normal.

 

It is just an sfx, and you don't get points - or lose points - for those.

 

 

 

*Obviously not at present - I'm saying it SHOULD be.

 

Not thoughts put in essay form.

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

Can you show me even a SINGLE example of a published character with NCM who HAS been disadvantaged by your definition?

Nope. But I don't have many to draw from. So make of that what you will.

 

Overall' date=' I agree with you. NCM is only taken by characters who don't buy up their characteristics to a point where they are paying significant extra points for characteristics - they are not disadvantaged.[/quote']

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

Being normal, most of the time, in a very abnormal world, IMO, qualifies.

 

A lot of disadvantages aren't. It is just the way the character is and he's learned to adjust through his life. Think about it.

OK, I've thought about it. Still don't buy your argument.

 

Characters shouldn't get points for potential disadvantages. They get points for actually being at a disadvantage. The disadvantage in this case is having invested more points for the same Characteristics than other characters. Don't make the investment, you don't reap the reward (more of a booby prize, but that's neither here nor there).

 

Similarly, you shouldn't claim Disadvantage points because you didn't spring for an Energy Blast, or Acrobatics, or Wealth, or...

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

So, unless a disadvantage handicaps the character from the moment of conception until the day he dies, it isn't a disad.

 

No long term disads. It has to be negative now.

 

Got it.

 

Don't buy it, but I got it.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

Dr. Infamous wishes to purchase 25 "Normal Humans," but only if they can be reprogrammed to obey him, and instructions are given for how to reprogram them in the future are included.

 

If the 25 "Normal Humans" in this order work out, Dr. Infamous may be ordering more in the future.

 

Oh, and they better be compatible with Dr. Infamous's patented supersonic telepathic mechanical penguins with laser eyes!

 

Meanwhile, The Mallard is checking teapots, looking for the one this tempest is in

 

 

Dr. Infamous, The Mallard, and the supersonic telepathic mechanical penguins with laser eyes are just some of the fine products of Basil's Twisted Imagination, Unincorporated. All rites performed.

 

 

Although Palindromedary Enterprises has certain joint projects in common with certain Bayang factions, we cannot broker deals for them.

 

It is suggested that you contact your local Game Operations Director for assistance.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary deposits a tempest in the same teapot with the patented supersonic telepathic mechanical penguins with laser eyes

[Kdansky]

Re: Normal Human

 

Being normal' date=' most of the time, in a very abnormal world, IMO, qualifies.[/quote']

 

Social Limitation. Not NCM.

 

 

NCM is a purely mechanical thing and as such, it utterly fails. Inreasing or decreasing cost of stuff you could buy at will never works.

 

No Psionic: Mental Powers cost x2: -20cp

No Speedster: Speed above 6 costs x2: -10cp

No Brick: STR above 40 costs x2: -5cp

No Energy Projector: EBs cost x2: -10cp

No Dimensiontraveler: EDM costs x2: -5cp

No Transformer: Transform costs x2: -5cp

NCM: Characteristics above arbitrary treshold cost x2: -20cp

 

Shall I go on? It's a horrible concept. It works as a campaign rule, but only there. The book even lists the example: "If you want Transform to be more common, you can reduce it's cost by half." etc.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

OK, I've thought about it. Still don't buy your argument.

 

Characters shouldn't get points for potential disadvantages. They get points for actually being at a disadvantage. The disadvantage in this case is having invested more points for the same Characteristics than other characters. Don't make the investment, you don't reap the reward (more of a booby prize, but that's neither here nor there).

 

All disadvantages are potential disadvantages. We assume that because we took fear of Spiders it will become releant but generally it's up to the GM to decide if and when it's going to.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

All disadvantages are potential disadvantages. We assume that because we took fear of Spiders it will become relevant but generally it's up to the GM to decide if and when it's going to.

 

Similarly, I would expect that, if I bought Life Support: Extreme Heat, the GM will provide an opportunity for me to show off this ability not shared by by comrades. Just like he will provide opportunities for the Brick to show off his high STR and the Speedster to show off his high DEX and SPD.

 

How does NCM impact this? How does the GM make "you pay double for certain characteristics" any MORE relevant to the game than "You don't have characteristics as high as your teammates, but you could buy them for normal cost"?

 

The GM controls whether spiders are relevant in any given scenario, and therefore controls the relevance of "Fear of Spiders". He does not control how the player spends character points, and cannot make that spending any more relevant than it is with no disad's related to how you spent your points.

 

Or, if you feel the GM can make NCM relevant, why is it not equally easy to make "Can't buy flight" relevant, in which case it is equally deserving of generating disadvantage points?

 

Having only normal characteristics may be a "small d" disadvantage - it would be more advantageous for the character to have higher characteristics. Similarly, inability to fly can be a "small d" disadvantage when it prevents effective meeting of a challenge. But neither is a "capital D" Disadvantage - one which is a game mechanic generating disadvantage points. No, you can't fly, so you have the points to spend on a different advantage for your character. No, you didn't spend as much on characteristics, so you had more points to spend on other advantages for your character - like the Flight that the other character could sure use right now!

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

So' date=' unless a disadvantage handicaps the character from the moment of conception until the day he dies, it isn't a disad.[/quote']

Don't be silly. I said nothing of the kind. Many Disadvantages don't come into play all the time. NCM, however, clearly does.

 

As to development... I fully support dynamic Disadvantages. You can buy off ones you start with, take new ones, swap things around, etc.

 

If you start a character with low Characteristics and do not qualify for any points from the NCM Disadvantage, I see nothing to prevent you from buying up those Characteristics in the future in such a way that you do qualify for points from the NCM Disadvantage.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

Don't be silly. I said nothing of the kind. Many Disadvantages don't come into play all the time. NCM, however, clearly does.

 

As to development... I fully support dynamic Disadvantages. You can buy off ones you start with, take new ones, swap things around, etc.

 

If you start a character with low Characteristics and do not qualify for any points from the NCM Disadvantage, I see nothing to prevent you from buying up those Characteristics in the future in such a way that you do qualify for points from the NCM Disadvantage.

 

So suppose my character is a Bayang and wants to buy a Normal Human follower.

 

Are you saying that

 

1. Because I may someday want to buy up the Characteristics, the write-up is OK as is and I can have Normal Characteristics Maxima on my robot?

or

 

2. If I ever do want to buy up those Characteristics I can take Normal Characteristic Maxima THEN and pay more for the Characteristics but more than offset it with the new Disadvantage?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Normal Palindromedary Follower

[SteveZilla]

Re: Normal Human

 

And Int is the base for a pretty large number of skills.

 

But AFAIK none of which are considered "Combat Skills".

 

The problem with Skill Levels isn't so much NCM or Not NCM, but the fact that the same kind of level costs the same for INT/STR Skills (the cheapest Characteristics*) as it does for DEX Skills (the most expensive Characteristic).

 

*I'm not counting COM in this, okay?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Normal Human

 

Perhaps taking NCM should also make the character's Primary Characteristics start at 8 instead of 10 because he's a "Normal Character"?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Normal Human

 

STR 20 = 10 points

DEX 20 = 30 points

 

Hmm. Perhaps we should base our notion of normality on how many points you can spend on any one thing, rather than just the number '20'. Perhaps you can be normal and not spend more than 12 points on anything without doubling the cost, which would allow you up to 22 STR, 14 DEX, 6" of flight or a 2 1/2d6 EB*. Of course you'd be laughing with defences because they stack: +12pd, +12 ed, +6/6 force field, +4/4 armour and 1/4 DR (normal physical and energy).

 

I mean, I can see how that would be a limitation.

 

 

 

 

*Sorry, sheesh, what was I thinking:

 

Normal Attack Of Doom: 12 Active, 8 Real

Energy Blast 1 point, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Penetrating (+1/2), Area Of Effect (1" Radius; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (20 shots; +2 1/2) (12 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

STR 20 = 10 points

DEX 20 = 30 points

 

Hmm. Perhaps we should base our notion of normality on how many points you can spend on any one thing, rather than just the number '20'. Perhaps you can be normal and not spend more than 12 points on anything without doubling the cost, which would allow you up to 22 STR, 14 DEX, 6" of flight or a 2 1/2d6 EB*. Of course you'd be laughing with defences because they stack: +12pd, +12 ed, +6/6 force field, +4/4 armour and 1/4 DR (normal physical and energy).

 

I mean, I can see how that would be a limitation.

 

It's a thought, it'd have to be a pretty big disad.

 

 

*Sorry, sheesh, what was I thinking:

 

Normal Attack Of Doom: 12 Active, 8 Real

Energy Blast 1 point, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Penetrating (+1/2), Area Of Effect (1" Radius; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (20 shots; +2 1/2) (12 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

 

Isn't that only going to blow up in your hex? Is a 1" radius bigger than a hex? It's never come up.

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

so suppose my character is a bayang and wants to buy a normal human follower.

 

Are you saying that

 

1. Because i may someday want to buy up the characteristics, the write-up is ok as is and i can have normal characteristics maxima on my robot?

Or

 

2. If i ever do want to buy up those characteristics i can take normal characteristic maxima then and pay more for the characteristics but more than offset it with the new disadvantage?

 

Lucius alexander

 

normal palindromedary follower

2

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

2

 

Good. I could take it now by dropping 1 pt of BOD and Security Systems and spending those points and the extra 4 so far unspent on INT, raising it to 33.

 

Eventually, if I spend enough on improving the robot that I'm spending 20 extra points on Characteristics due to the Normal Characteristic Maxima Disadvantages, I buy off the Disadvantages for 30 points and thus free up 30 points to spend on defenses (which are EXPENSIVE for something with the Automaton Takes No Stun power!)

 

I just realized that above a certain point the Normal Human's basic PD and ED will cost SIX TIMES normal....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that expensive defenses are a good reason to buy BOD, and since BOD is capped at 10 before doubling, it won't take long to hit the breakpoint where you buy off the Disad....

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

 

Why CAN he? When he was running around with Thor ("Cannot buy scientific powers or magic spells" - every other PC had scientific based powers, and most NPC's either had science or magic give them a choice of unusual one off powers as they needed them), Giant Man ("cannot have powers unrelated to size change or insect control"), the Wasp ("only allowed wasp powers linked to Shrinking"), Cap ("cannot take non-focused powers not related to augmented human physiology), he got his characteristics from a different source ("cannot buy powers or above NCM abilities without a focus").

 

Why CAN'T he? Why not, indeed? Most of his teammates could ALSO take NCM. Consider Thor (all boosted abilities were OIHID - limited characteristics don't count to NCM, remember?), Giant Man (his enhanced stats came from Growth or Shrinking, both of which were due to serums, gas or pills in those days and, even if not, Linked to his size changing powers - so still "Char as Limitation = Power"), the Wasp (NCM for the same reason as Giant Man), Cap (who IS a highly trained human normal who would NOT take NCM because his stats were "human peak", not "top of human average" - the only "Normal Human" is the only guy on the team who DOESN'T take NCM - unless you count the Super Soldier Serum as a limitation...). Iron Man just uses a different limitation for his abilities exceeding NCM. So everyone but Cap, the most "normal human" on the team, gets NCM!

 

 

Actually, I'm not sure Captain America can't take Normal Characteristic Maxima.

 

No, the serum isn't a limitation - but it is an advantage. Captain America's STR and Running would be bought "Zero END cost" - making them Powers and not subject to the double cost rule.

 

I am no expert on the character, but...

 

I seem to recall that he maintains his combat readiness with constant practice and training. His superhuman DEX can have a limitation: fades without constant practice. Granted that is only likely to come up if you manage to capture him and hold him for a couple of days, but even a -0 Limitation exempts a Characteristic from costing double....I've also heard a proposal that his extra DEX needs time to kick in, and represents that as everyone around him gets tired and he doesn't, he becomes more competent in comparison....

 

The PRE could be regarded either as Reputation, or maybe as Only in Hero ID (Doesn't he have a Secret ID?)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Captain Palindromedary

[Badger]

Re: Normal Human

 

One possible approach' date=' if players do not want to go to the trouble of working it out in advance; when it comes up, roll 3d6 for your 'base characteristic' and record that for present and future use.[/quote']

 

 

Course, if I did that, it'd be the most likely time for me to roll triple-snake eyes.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Normal Human

 

...............

 

Isn't that only going to blow up in your hex? Is a 1" radius bigger than a hex? It's never come up.

 

It was bought as 'One Hex' doubled, so it blows up your hex and all the hexes around you, basically everyone in melee range - including friends. That was how Hero Designer notes it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Normal Human

 

Course' date=' if I did that, it'd be the most likely time for me to roll triple-snake eyes. [/quote']

 

That works two ways though. If you are a 50 STR mutant then a 'drain mutant STR' would be able to get rid of 47 STR. If, however, it was a 'drain normal STR', then it could only drain 33 (normal STR goes all the way down to -30).

 

I know: over complicated. I am what I am.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

2

 

So - are you also saying that no one should take the Age Disad unless they are paying extra for at least one characteristic?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a well aged palindromedary

[schir1964]

Re: Normal Human

 

Rabbit Trail

I've always thought that the Age Disadvantage should be built with Static Penalties that the character always suffers (-OCV,-DCV,-X to Agility Skills, and so forth).

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Normal Human

 

Rabbit Trail

I've always thought that the Age Disadvantage should be built with Static Penalties that the character always suffers (-OCV,-DCV,-X to Agility Skills, and so forth).

 

The Age Disadvantage is great for building ancient wizards, not for explaining why Gramapa is not as young as he used to be. If you want that, you need Physical Limitations such as Arthritis or Senility.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

The Age Disadvantage is great for building ancient wizards' date=' not for explaining why Gramapa is not as young as he used to be. If you want that, you need Physical Limitations such as Arthritis or Senility.[/quote']

 

It's a disadvantage you get for taking cost penalties on stats you weren't going to buy in order to get a cost break on stats you wanted. How does that make sense?

 

For that matter, why is "Age" limited by SFX? The disadvantage itself notes that one could take Age 40+ and be a "remarkably spry 93 year old". Why can't a frail, bookish 23 year old Wizard who has spent his life cloistered in a dark tower poring over arcane lore take "Frail" with the same restrictions as a character over age 60?

 

Should the disadvantage be imposed in play if the character reaches a new age category? After 10 game-years in play, should the character who started as a "50 year old grizzled veteran" have the 60+ restrictions imposed upon him? How many game years before the "under 10" street urchin is required to buy off the disadvantage?

 

Age 10- is wonky. STR max is 5, but all PC's start with 10. The FAQ suggests he gets the base 10 for free, but pays double from there on up, but goes on to suggest he should sell all his stats back to the new maximum (at regular, not doubled, points - saves 19), then pay (double) to buy them back up, if he so desires. Which is it?

 

My simple reasoning says ditch NCM. If your character has a 20 DEX, it costs 30 points . Another 5 DEX costs another 15. If you want the stats of a 6 year old, sell back to that level. The points you get back, not a screwy disad, are your reward. He's getting older? Buy the stats up - normal price. We dont need a special rule for some characters who pay different amounts for the same abilities.

 

You want a game where characters rarely exceed 20, and don't exceep 30? Then establish that as a ground rule - stats over 20 must be justified with character schtick; no one has more than one stat over 20, and it can't exceed 30; whatever. A setting where the doubling rule is imposed? Fine - that's no different from TA's 1/3 cost of spells. But not a core rule, thanks. Core rules should be SFX neutral and setting neutral.