NestorDRod Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far With the exception of Comliness you can still purchase the exact same stats, both in value and ratio, as in 5e. The cost won't likely be the same, but the functionality is still there. Oops, I guess I lied. I guess I still have some pedant to peddle. No, since the "Primary Characteristics" no longer determine the base values of the "Figured Characteristics," their functionality has diminished, so only some of it is still there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Well' date=' if you want to be technical about it, they [i']are[/i] removing Figured Characteristics, since they're no longer Figured, you see? They're now on the same level as what were formerly the Primary Characteristics. So using the term "figured" is actually what could be considered misleading. And that's my pedantic moment for the day... Pedantry aside, the problem is that people keep mentioning that "figured characteristics" are "going away". Which means that at least some people who see that as a primary source then think that PD, ED, REC, Speed, END, and STUN are going away. Rather than just having their base value changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far That is precisely how I took it, and I suspect precisely how you intended it to be taken. If I'm wrong, my apologies. In any case, I'm done with this thread. I believe I've made my opinion known on what is, after all, topic actually under discussion on a discussion board. It's got nothing to do with people not bowing down to 6E. I have no problem with people not liking specific changes because they don't think they'll work -- I think they should try them first before making that decision but that's beside the point. My problem is with the very narrow definition of what the Hero System is that some people have and the typical Internet practice of jumping to conclusions about things before fully seeing them -- insert almost any Internet discussion of an upcoming movie. Not to mention the childish hyperbole that is typical of geeks when something they have become way too attached to is threatened (for example, a TV show they like is cancelled and they start shooting their mouths off about boycotting the network). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Very few of these are authorized' date=' with the possible exception of the [i']Exalted[/i] one, but hey, it's Exalted. Well, here's the ones I know of D and D had The Book of Erotic Fantasy (which has been falsely maligned and too often lumped in with garbage like FATAL, IMO) and there's at least one more professional out there. GURPS: Sex was a fan supplement and Exalted was a mostly a joke with the proposal to do a real book if the gag sold enough (I'm not sure that offer was real). And and there's Sex and Sorcery as well and Naughty and Dice which, IIRC was just a general guide book for sex in rpg? But really when did I say it had to authorized? Hero System should just have one. It's a prestige/popularity thing like how you're not really "in" until Weird Al parodies one of your songs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Oops, I guess I lied. I guess I still have some pedant to peddle. No, since the "Primary Characteristics" no longer determine the base values of the "Figured Characteristics," their functionality has diminished, so only some of it is still there... Which doesn't stop you from buying the same characteristics at the same values and ratios. With the exception of COM you will still be able to purchase a character with the exact same values for all of their characteristics, the same total leaping and the same CV/ECV. The point cost might be different, but the values can be exactly the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Pedantry aside' date=' the problem is that people keep mentioning that "figured characteristics" are "going away". Which means that at least some people who see that as a primary source then think that PD, ED, REC, Speed, END, and STUN are going away. Rather than just having their base value changed.[/quote'] Really? Hmm. OK then, show of hands, please? How many of the folks here in this discussion think that saying "Figured characteristics are going away" means that the characteristics themselves are being removed? 'Cause that certainly wasn't my understanding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Which doesn't stop you from buying the same characteristics at the same values and ratios. With the exception of COM you will still be able to purchase a character with the exact same values for all of their characteristics' date=' the same total leaping and the same CV/ECV. The point cost might be different, but the values can be exactly the same.[/quote'] Agreed, but the reasoning behind setting the "Primary" characteristics to certain values has now changed. I'm not saying that this change is for the worse, but it has changed. The usefulness of DEX as a Characteristic by itself has been diminished. The fact that you can buy up the formerly Figured Characteristics to match what would have been their base values before is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far The basic 3d6-roll-for-success mechanic remains, and it will continue to be "roll-low." Disappointing, but not surprising. No changes to the Speed Chart. Also not surprising Movement will continue to be measured per Phase. This makes stuff easier for the players not surprising All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E. Minor change, it will allow map scale changes easier and changes the break points for half moves Comeliness will no longer be one of the Characteristics. It's being replaced with an optional Talent, Striking Appearance. I guess that is one way to "fix" the "problem" of Comeliness All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet. I guess I am ok with this, this fixes some people's complaints about certain Characteristics being "overpowered" for their cost. Also I am wondering if we will have primaries that are the bonus to the skill roll (ie instead of a 30 str having a 6 strength. with all Characteristics being 5pts per +1 since everything only really gives bonuses to the Characteristic rolls. OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately. I don't really care for this, but it will make it easier to build folk who are great at hitting stuff but not so great at dodging. So in a way it makes for more diverse character builds. Suggested starting point totals will be raised to compensate for the change to Characteristics -- no specifics yet. Makes sense; decent change since they will start at lower values Leaping will no longer be derived from Strength -- it will start at a base amount for all characters, as with Running and Swimming. Just more of the same NP Skills will still be calculated from CHAR/5, but there will be an optional "Toolkitting" note about changing that if desired. Other Toolkitting notes will appear throughout the rules -- no further details on those. Seduction Skill will be renamed Charm. Woooo, at least this change makes a broader skill than seduction, Good Change Some new Powers have been added, and others have been removed. The only one mentioned is Find Weakness, which is being removed. There will be no official way to reduce Defenses below 1/2 as with Armor Piercing. I think I can live without Find Weakness I really don't think I will miss it at all Adjustment Powers have been significantly reworked -- no further details yet. I'll have to see the changes before I comment Energy Blast and Killing Attack will still be separate forms of Damage, as they are in 5E. No change, no comment The Stun Multiplier for Killing Attack will become a straight 1/2d6. It will still be possible to buy up the Stun Multiplier with Advantages. Hmmm, seems a bit harsh to have the avg stun being a x2. Kind of hurts heroic level games more than Superheroic ones. This of course means that the Hit Location chart will also be redone. I can't say that I like having less granularity in stun damage for KA's You will be able to apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a Killing Attack whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not. Pure rules simplification. Good Job Steve! Nothing has changed about the way STR adds to Hand-To-Hand Killling Attack damage. The method of Adding Damage is supposed to be simplified -- no further details yet. The Multipower and VPP Frameworks will remain, but Elemental Control is being replaced by a new Limitation, Unified Power (no value given). Not surprising as every edition of the rules has changed the way that EC's work. This way means that you won't have to cheese powers up in cost to be part of the EC, over all I think I like this change. Though it does make characters more expensive esp if you had other limits on powers in the EC I don't see anything that I really object to. Though divorcing CV from Dex and Ego is troubling to me. I am not sure I can say that I am excited by the new rules edition, but I will be buying it. I will have to see what is being done to adjustment powers to make a more informed decision. I am starting to have the opinion that trying to write a rule that fits every little occasion is what made both Squad Leader, Star Fleet Battles and now The Hero System unwieldy and hard for new players to learn. I was hoping that the rules would become more lean and less complex. Hopefully this will still happen. Though with 2 books for the rules it seems a bit hopeless for fat cutting. Tasha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far It's got nothing to do with people not bowing down to 6E. I have no problem with people not liking specific changes because they don't think they'll work -- I think they should try them first before making that decision but that's beside the point. My problem is with the very narrow definition of what the Hero System is that some people have and the typical Internet practice of jumping to conclusions about things before fully seeing them -- insert almost any Internet discussion of an upcoming movie. Not to mention the childish hyperbole that is typical of geeks when something they have become way too attached to is threatened (for example' date=' a TV show they like is cancelled and they start shooting their mouths off about boycotting the network).[/quote'] An opinion you're entirely entitled to have. Me? I hate raisins. So if someone hands me something with raisins in it, I don't eat it. I don't care how purportedly tasty it might be, I don't like raisins, there are raisins in it, ergo I won't eat it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Yes. Fuzion was so successful the first time around. Why should people be any more enthusiastic this time around? Perhaps they were correct to act cautiously. Oh, come on. The change we are talking about is giving measurements in meters instead of hexes or game inches. The only thing I could really see changing because of this might be the facing rules. You should still be able to use a hex map pretty much as you did before if not precisely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far An opinion you're entirely entitled to have. Me? I hate raisins. So if someone hands me something with raisins in it, I don't eat it. I don't care how purportedly tasty it might be, I don't like raisins, there are raisins in it, ergo I won't eat it. But didn't you try raisins at some point to know you didn't like them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Really? Hmm. OK then, show of hands, please? How many of the folks here in this discussion think that saying "Figured characteristics are going away" means that the characteristics themselves are being removed? 'Cause that certainly wasn't my understanding... I never said that it was people in this particular thread. Or even necessarily people posting on the Hero boards. But I have been told by more than one person about needing to convince someone that when they heard that "figured characteristics were going away" what it really meant was that they won't be based off of the primary characteristics anymore. Rather than actually going away. It is just imprecise and misleading terminology. I'm not saying it is being done to intentionally mislead. Just that someone unfamiliar with the overall situation can be mislead into thinking that it means the bare meaning of the words, since they don't have the context to understand the real message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I am starting to have the opinion that trying to write a rule that fits every little occasion is what made both Squad Leader, Star Fleet Battles and now The Hero System unwieldy and hard for new players to learn. I was hoping that the rules would become more lean and less complex. Hopefully this will still happen. Though with 2 books for the rules it seems a bit hopeless for fat cutting. Tasha And that's getting close to what I'm realizing is my lack of enthusiasm for the new edition. I'm seeing a trend where the rules are kow-towing to the Gods of Game Balance and Rules-Lawyering. I'm willing to accept that there are an appreciable number of Hero System players who either don't mind or are happy with that. I just don't happen to be one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapsedgamer Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far It's got nothing to do with people not bowing down to 6E. I have no problem with people not liking specific changes because they don't think they'll work -- I think they should try them first before making that decision but that's beside the point. My problem is with the very narrow definition of what the Hero System is that some people have and the typical Internet practice of jumping to conclusions about things before fully seeing them -- insert almost any Internet discussion of an upcoming movie. Not to mention the childish hyperbole that is typical of geeks when something they have become way too attached to is threatened (for example' date=' a TV show they like is cancelled and they start shooting their mouths off about boycotting the network).[/quote'] I am going to give this horse one more kick in the chops. I am not sure he's dead yet. It is precisely that childish attachment to the shows or products that allow the networks or companies to make a profit. If no one was passionate enough about your product to be upset to see it go away, you would not be able to market it or sell ad time. Geeks are money in the bank. The questions is can you add enough mainstream appeal into a geek-friendly product to make mega-profits. That is not an issue in pen and paper gaming. I am pretty sure that the intellectual license will make more money for DOJ than selling game books. Yes, you can mock me later when I turn out to be wrong. Will it be worth it to alienate a large percentage of loyal fans of the system in an attempt to bring in new converts? Will Mr. Long's new vision be workable? If I had that kind of foresight, I would be Bill Gates rich, not a lowly civil servant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I don't believe that you can say the people who are expressing their opinions about a product that they have been supporting with their hard-earned money for years, or decades, are being narrow-minded. You might say that they were being overly passionate or reactionary. However, you also have to understand that the passion many players feel for the system is the reason why the system still exists at all. People loved this system, the way it was originally conceived, for decades. They loved it so much that they were kept it alive in their hearts when the products weren't all that great. Anyone remember Cyber Hero or European Enemies? They even kept it alive when there were no new products forthcoming. They loved it so much that they greeted its resurrection with unreserved enthusiasm. Personally, I have have spent money that could have been much more useful in other applications on DOJ product because I was so happy that the system had not died. I hadn't played in ten years , but I wanted to do my part to keep it alive. It was a purely emotional decision based on nostalgia for my salad days. The things I am hearing about 6E leave me with great reservations as to whether the things I loved about the system will survive. I don't think I am alone in experiencing quite a bit of apprehension here. Mr. Long is a talented designer. He has a very methodical belt-and-suspenders style, and he displays brilliance on the page often enough that you cannot doubt that he knows what he is doing. The reactions you see here are based on the fact that many of us do not want the changes that Mr. Long has set out to make. I will admit to occasionally being frustrated by some of the more arcane quirks of the system. However, I have yet to find a full blown system that I like better. I feel that Mr. Long has gone back in time to kill the baby before the bathwater was even drawn. It's a very emotional reaction. I admit that, but couldn't you just tweak the system a little without gutting it. It just doesn't sit well with me. He will likely turn out a superior product, and I believe I understand the business reasons for a new edition. I understand that Mr. Long has taken a lot or responsibility and personal risk to keep the system going. I am grateful for the hours of enjoyment his work has given me, but I think a lot of these changes are somewhat unilateral. I fear that it will not by the Hero System I spent all those years in love with. I don't need to be talked off of the edge, but I am not sanguine. QFT and repped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far One thing is clear - this is something that people DO care about. 43 pages in 2 days. That has to be some sort of record. You're all wrong, obviously, but passionate about it. I like that. What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far But didn't you try raisins at some point to know you didn't like them? Point. But what makes you think I haven't experienced rules mechanics like these before? And please don't come back with "but you haven't tried them with this game." That's like saying I haven't tried this]/i] dish with raisins. And I think that's about as far as we can take this analogy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Really? Hmm. OK then, show of hands, please? How many of the folks here in this discussion think that saying "Figured characteristics are going away" means that the characteristics themselves are being removed? 'Cause that certainly wasn't my understanding... I'm thinking more of some occasional Hero fan coming in and reading the last few pages of the thread and the impression that will leave him with. I know that if I didn't have previous knowledge of the concept of decoupling figureds and I saw a statement saying that figured characteristics were going away or being removed, then the conclusion I would jump to would be that they are facing the same fate as COM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Agreed, but the reasoning behind setting the "Primary" characteristics to certain values has now changed. I'm not saying that this change is for the worse, but it has changed. The usefulness of DEX as a Characteristic by itself has been diminished. The fact that you can buy up the formerly Figured Characteristics to match what would have been their base values before is irrelevant. It isn't at all irrelevant. You will be able to have a character that has the exact same in game effects (as far as characteristics go, excepting COM) in 6e as you can in 5e. You will purchase it somewhat differently, but the overall in game effect hasn't changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far It's got nothing to do with people not bowing down to 6E. I have no problem with people not liking specific changes because they don't think they'll work -- I think they should try them first before making that decision but that's beside the point. OK, I have tried being without the BBB powers of Regeneration and Instant change for some time now. The Frankenrules patches substitutes are not satisfactory. What in this makes me even suspect I will like having to take the same approch to Find Weakness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far An opinion you're entirely entitled to have. Me? I hate raisins. So if someone hands me something with raisins in it, I don't eat it. I don't care how purportedly tasty it might be, I don't like raisins, there are raisins in it, ergo I won't eat it. But you've tried raisins. You don't look at raisins and say "Those things look gross, I'm not going to eat that." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I never said that it was people in this particular thread. Or even necessarily people posting on the Hero boards. But I have been told by more than one person about needing to convince someone that when they heard that "figured characteristics were going away" what it really meant was that they won't be based off of the primary characteristics anymore. Rather than actually going away. It is just imprecise and misleading terminology. I'm not saying it is being done to intentionally mislead. Just that someone unfamiliar with the overall situation can be mislead into thinking that it means the bare meaning of the words, since they don't have the context to understand the real message. I sort of followed that. I'm still scratching my head about it, but I'll acknowledge there are people out there who could interpret it that way. It takes all kinds... But then again, I did say I was being pedantic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTaylor Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far And saying "... removed all figured characteristics ..." is misleading. Fair enough, as others have pointed out I was thinking more of the concept of them being figured but it is inaccurate to say that they are gone when they are merely changed. Still, I think its a pretty major set of changes, taken as a whole if not individually. Maybe its a good change; we'll have to wait and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapsedgamer Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Oh' date=' come on. The change we are talking about is giving measurements in meters instead of hexes or game inches. The only thing I could really see changing because of this might be the facing rules. You should still be able to use a hex map pretty much as you did before if not precisely.[/quote'] But didn't you try raisins at some point to know you didn't like them? I was referring to the divorce of primary from figured stats. Some of the other stuff is innocuous enough. It's not a deal breaker for me if I can effectively ignore it in practice or use it selectively. A complete change to the way characters are built, with potential compatibility issues for previously purchased items, that's another story. In hindsight, I might not have read Tasha's post correctly. I might not try raisins if they were $80.00 a box if I already knew I liked something else and had a lot of it on hand already. EDIT: Yes. I did misread Tasha's post. I conflated it with some other things I was reading at the same time. I will retract that particular response as it makes no sense now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far It isn't at all irrelevant. You will be able to have a character that has the exact same in game effects (as far as characteristics go' date=' excepting COM) in 6e as you can in 5e. You will purchase it somewhat differently, but the overall in game effect hasn't changed.[/quote'] Sigh. But the intrinsic value of the Characteristic, by itself, has changed. It's already been illustrated in this thread. What 5 points of DEX give you now, and what they'll give you in 6e. And the second list is shorter. Whether a good or bad change, it's still a change. So claiming that the Characteristic's functionality is unchanged is misleading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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