6E Rules changes confirmed so far

[torchwolf]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Re: and Interaction Skills: These are viable subjects - effects of , PRE, etc. on Interactions Skills and PRE Attacks - but they be best served if expanded on under another thread? I'm game, but this is getting long for this thread.

[Toadmaster]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

But it hasn't changed in any way that effects game play. The only changes to characteristics (at least so far as have been announced) just effect how you buy things. The character can still have exactly the same functionality, they just buy it differently. You can buy a character that goes at Dex 24, has a base of 14- for Agility Skills, an OCV and DCV of 8, and a Speed of 5. HOW you buy that functionality is changing, but the ability to HAVE that functionality isn't.

 

I never claimed that the functionality of each individual characteristic was remaining the same. Certainly it isn't. But the in game functionality gained by buying characteristics in 5e can be exactly duplicated in 6e. How it is purchased is changing, and the total cost will likely be different. But the exact same in game functionality can still be had.

 

 

 

fails ego roll

 

 

 

Hey, you're right it still says HERO on the front so its just a minor change.

 

 

 

 

 

Off to find the place that puts holes in your head, clearly I need another one.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Hopefully' date=' SexEd will get rid of the characteristics having a non-zero start value. I mean that whole "start at 10" implies that I'm playing an adult who is a little better than the average person in the street. Why not just start all the characteristics at zero, and have everyone's starting points jump by an extra 125-175 points? I mean, yeah, it'll be some extra work for the 90% of the characters that fit that paradigm, but the other 10% won't have to screw around with those complicated negative numbers in their costs.[/quote']

 

Unfortunately, based on Steve's comment that the decoupled CV Chararaceristics are going to start with a base of 3, I think the base of 10 is remaining for what were Primary Characteristics. Steve hasn't revealed what the bases for the formerly Figured Characteristics are going to be.

 

I've got to admit that negative numbers have never bothered me so it's not a big deal.

[incrdbil]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I'm really betting on time to cool passions. I think many wanting to walk away will, after watching it in play or reading a friends book, will give it a whirl and find it to be ok. If you seriously can't have a fun game given the changes so far, then of course stay with what makes you happy.

 

But heck, a lot of us even gave 4th Edition D&D a chance...can't we do the same for 6E HERO?

[jtelson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

it will have to look like an over worked kludged monster compared to the beautiful mechanic of comp rolls already in the game

 

Not really kludgy, pay X for 11< +1 for Y: Comp roll in situations where appearance may help. If you need to compare appearance - just look at the value of the roll

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

it will have to look like an over worked kludged monster compared to the beautiful mechanic of comp rolls already in the game

 

I'm not saying it cannot be done in 6e

I'm saying you will need to use this ugly bastard stepchild of multiple activates to simulate a feature that is now gone (for the Com stat only)

and take up way too much space on the character sheet

 

Other than a cost of the stat,the stat,the stat roll and a mechanic that is used for other stat and skill rolls

 

So, put COM back in your game and don't use Striking Appearance.

[Beast]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I agree with you 100%

 

 

Who said we were surprised?

 

Disappointed? Yeah.

Questioning Mr. Long's Wisdom? Guilty.

Surprised? No.

 

There's just nothing like the feeling of fresh salt.

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I might point out that there's almost zero surprises in what Steve has released' date=' and people mostly haven't complained about the stuff that's a surprise (some minor complaints about KAs) -- they've complained about figured characteristics, which has been posted since forever in the 6e discussion and shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who was following those discussions.[/quote']

 

1. It was announced as a possibility in the 6th ed forums. Now its been confirmed as a truth and a fresh shock. If Long was going to just do everything he said he might in the forums then they were a sham.

 

2. Even then most of the dislike seems to be towards decoupling CVs which came out of nowhere. At least I don't recall that being even brought up a part of the discussion from an official source. Some posters did bring it up and even then it met with strong opposition.

[Beast]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

in those game I have a say in I will

the bigger question will the other changes make it a too different game both in chargen and mechanics

Mechanics looks to be staying pretty close to Hero

Chargen is a different story

 

 

 

 

So' date=' put COM back in your game and don't use Striking Appearance.[/quote']

[Kenn]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

3 is just what the "figured" stat from DEX 10 has been for the past 30 years has been. But since the "special effect" of being a biological being is no longer being enforced by the rules, and is now left, assuming the gamemaster likes people with similar special effects following the same guidelines, to gamemaster to enforce, why not just take it all the way and make no assumptions and start everything at zero.

[CTaylor]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Regarding Hit Locations, I suspect that the chart will be changed to reflect the smaller range of stun modifiers that KAs will now have. My guess would be that head and vitals will be x3, stomach x2, chest shoulders thighs x1 and extremities x1/2 like now. It just reduces the powerful impact of certain locations.

 

And given this reduction (and the increase of resilience automatically given to stun from KAs) I would suggest the OCV penalties be reduced on hit locations. It is not as hard to hit a head as the chart presently insists. Even based on size it makes no sense: hitting an isolated, floating head-sized dodging object is a lot harder than a head attached to a dodging body.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

3 is just what the "figured" stat from DEX 10 has been for the past 30 years has been.

 

That is the only thing that Steve had said about base values for characteristics, so it was the only thing that I could realy draw any conclusions from. Since he decided the base CVs should be 3, it seemed logical that DEX and EGO were still going to have a base of 10 -- or at the vey least, it implied that Steve had not decided to do the "build from 0" thing.

 

But since the "special effect" of being a biological being is no longer being enforced by the rules, and is now left, assuming the gamemaster likes people with similar special effects following the same guidelines, to gamemaster to enforce, why not just take it all the way and make no assumptions and start everything at zero.

 

Steve decided not to. It would be easy to do yourself in your own games. But it's exactly the same as starting at 10 and buying things down.

 

And one could argue that the special effect of being a biological being is still there -- in fact, it's pretty clear that the default character is a Terran human. The sense rules imply that. The Life Support rules imply that and so on. You have to buy abilities and/or take Disadvantages to be anything different.

[James Gillen]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Yeah. It's pretty insulting.

 

When I first found Hero one of the things that attracted me was the interconnectedness of figured stats, I loved how things hung together. It was one of the reasons I got into the system.

 

Being told that I fear change when one of the reasons I got into the system is being removed is irritating.

 

I embraced the changed in 4e wholeheartedly, and enjoyed much of the changes in 5th (some I houseruled away - Regen, IC, ECs, and Damage Shields I pretty much run 4th (or even 3rd) ed versions of). I don't fear change. I just don't like most of the changes that have been announced.

 

 

I'm with McCoy.

I never liked 5E Regeneration in the first place, but the rest of it was good enough to make me use that edition.

The 6E changes I see so far might actually make sense in themselves but so far I see a whole bunch of changes being made to "correct" problems that In My Opinion were not problems (namely Figured Characteristics) by the means of creating more rules and requiring more points to get something similar to what you had before.

This again will make it harder to teach newbies, and while I will probably buy these two new books, it depends greatly on how much money I need to pay off the IRS on interest from a prior tax bill.

The fact that I need to treat the book(s) as an investment choice is another negative factor. And when I tell the gang at my gaming group about what I've heard so far, I don't think they're going to want to buy the new edition.

 

JG

[Steve]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Oh my... I glanced at the thread yesterday, but it is swelling quickly. For what it's worth, my 2 xps on the new edition.

 

The basic 3d6-roll-for-success mechanic remains, and it will continue to be "roll-low." This is the central game mechanic of the system, so no surprise here.

 

No changes to the Speed Chart. This is a central game mechanic of the system, so no surprise here.

 

Movement will continue to be measured per Phase.

I've never had a problem with the phase by phase movement issue.

 

All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E.

My only question on this is how will facing be affected?

 

Comeliness will no longer be one of the Characteristics. It's being replaced with an optional Talent, Striking Appearance.

Spending points on COM was a little annoying, because it didn't really do anything in a mechanics way.

 

All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet.

This seems to have brought the charges of heresy from many on the boards. Buying CON (for example) then buying up the formally linked characteristics is not a problem for me.

 

OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately. Same as previous comment.

 

Suggested starting point totals will be raised to compensate for the change to Characteristics -- no specifics yet. Not a problem. Points are campaign-driven for me.

 

Leaping will no longer be derived from Strength -- it will start at a base amount for all characters, as with Running and Swimming. Good! Weightlifters are not known to be great highjumpers.

 

Skills will still be calculated from CHAR/5, but there will be an optional "Toolkitting" note about changing that if desired. Other Toolkitting notes will appear throughout the rules -- no further details on those. No problems here for me.

 

Seduction Skill will be renamed Charm. No problems here for me.

 

Some new Powers have been added, and others have been removed. The only one mentioned is Find Weakness, which is being removed. There will be no official way to reduce Defenses below 1/2 as with Armor Piercing. I'll wait and see on this one.

 

Adjustment Powers have been significantly reworked -- no further details yet. I'll wait and see on this one but tentatively enthused.

 

Energy Blast and Killing Attack will still be separate forms of Damage, as they are in 5E. No problems here for me.

 

The Stun Multiplier for Killing Attack will become a straight 1/2d6. It will still be possible to buy up the Stun Multiplier with Advantages. How will the hit locations table work with the new method?

 

You will be able to apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a Killing Attack whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not. This is an interesting change, and it doesn't bother me.

 

Nothing has changed about the way STR adds to Hand-To-Hand Killling Attack damage.

 

The method of Adding Damage is supposed to be simplified -- no further details yet. As a maker of martial artists, THANK HEAVEN!!!

 

The Multipower and VPP Frameworks will remain, but Elemental Control is being replaced by a new Limitation, Unified Power (no value given).I've never been much enthused by ECs, so this is a welcome change.

 

From what is shown, I'm looking forward to buying.

[torchwolf]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

That is the only thing that Steve had said about base values for characteristics, so it was the only thing that I could realy draw any conclusions from. Since he decided the base CVs should be 3, it seemed logical that DEX and EGO were still going to have a base of 10 -- or at the vey least, it implied that Steve had not decided to do the "build from 0" thing.

Steve decided not to. It would be easy to do yourself in your own games. But it's exactly the same as starting at 10 and buying things down.

 

This also means that 10+ pages of these arguments were just speculation proved unfounded.

 

Having the same starting bases means its even easier for anyone to use/reverse-engineer/build to 5ER or even BBB (or Hero System Rulebook if anyone remembers that one).

 

cool.

[ajackson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

1. It was announced as possibility in the 6th ed forums. Now its been confirmed as a truth. It Long was going to just do everything he said he might in the forums then they were a sham.

 

2. Even then most of the dislike seems to be towards decoupling CVs which came out of nowhere. At least I don't recall that being even brought up a part of the discussion from an official source. Some posters did bring it up and even then it met with strong opposition.

You might look at the first post in the characteristics thread. Points of note:

Q: Should we get rid of the concept of Figured Characteristics, and just make all Characteristics straightforward purchases?

 

Steve’s Thoughts: I am strongly in favor of doing this and intend to implement this change unless I am persuaded otherwise by a particularly convincing argument.

 

Q: Should CV be removed as something that’s factored from DEX?

First of all, it was quite obvious from the thread that no 'particularly convincing arguments' came forward, since I didn't notice anyone being convinced by arguments on that thread. Second, the CV change didn't come from nowhere..

[archermoo]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

fails ego roll

 

 

 

Hey, you're right it still says HERO on the front so its just a minor change.

 

 

 

 

 

Off to find the place that puts holes in your head, clearly I need another one.

 

If you'll check the post of mine you quoted at no point does it say "it still says HERO on the front so its just a minor change". And what it does say isn't remotely similar.

 

As far as I'm concerned a change that doesn't change in game functionality would be hard pressed to be considered major. The changes to characteristics are (with the exception of the removal of COM) a simple matter of how things are purchased, and almost certainly how they are costed, though Steve hasn't talked about costs yet that I'm aware of.

[pinecone]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Pure water does not contain sulphur.

 

Some things are very easy to refute 100%. Many fewer things are possible to prove 100%.

 

 

Doc

 

Word, you cannot prove too 100%? Likely, cannot refute? Possable...

[McCoy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I apologize. It's the technical writer in me who prefers accurate language.

Apology Accepted, thank you.

[The Main Man]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well, it's official: Unified Power can be used (for example) to backdoor CHAR recoupling.

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well' date=' it's official: Unified Power can be used (for example) to backdoor CHAR recoupling.[/quote']

 

That just sounds dirty

[The Main Man]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

That just sounds dirty

 

Now someone will have to do the filthy, filthy math to compare the two.

 

With hope, it basically solves itself for older edition players playing at a 6e table.

[Vulcan]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Figureds are unbalancing and broken. At least for me.

 

I thought they were needed to balance EC's. Now that EC's are gone, I suppose figureds needed to go as well.

 

Hey! I just thought of something! With "Unified Power", now bricks get the same discount on their attack, defense, and movement powers that the energy projectors and mentalists have been getting all this time!

 

Maybe there is hope for 6E yet...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well' date=' it's official: Unified Power can be used (for example) to backdoor CHAR recoupling.[/quote']

 

I kinda figured it was going thataway.

[Vulcan]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Arguably certain attacks (ones that do not telegraph themselves or move to fast to actively avoid, like bullets) should not use DCV at all but be a function of target size, target distance, cover and what the target is doing - erratic, irreglar movement should make you harder to hit.

 

One big issue though is the effective skill of the person firing the gun. Skill on a firing range where you have time, little pressure and no real danger is vastly different to the situation in the 'field' where most people's first consideration is keeping at a distance, under cover, keeping low and moving erratically - at least if the other side is shooting back.

 

I'd suggest, as a house rule for realistic games, that against bullets, and the like, a human sized target should be DCV 5 (a hex is DCV 3, a human fills about half a hex), regardless of DEX, and should get +2 DCV for moving erratically/duck and covering - but should probably also suffer a -2 OCV (maybe more).

 

That would probably be a reasonably accurate but still playable simulation of gun based ranged combat, especially if both sides are making as much use of cover as possible, which is the point you rightly made.

 

Sounds like a great set of houserules for a 'more realistic than HEROs' HEROs game.