FH magic system

[DarkGreen]

Whee, first post on new FH boards!

 

I just wanted to continue the discussion on how to make good FH magic systems.

 

To recount what has been worked out (and playtested!) so far:

 

Maximum active points is 2xINT for hermetic casters, 2xPRE for religious casters

 

Spell guidelines

Each mage buys a multipower, each spell will be an ultra slot. A spell cannot be altered once purchased (to add d6, for example) but a new spell can be bought with the desired effect.

 

Basic END for magic is 1 per 5 AP, spells must be full endance or zero endurance – no reduced endurance.

 

Required disadvantages are: Gestures, incantations, concentrate to 1/2DCV (to cast), Requires magic roll – total –1.5

 

DCV/Dex modifiers due to armor apply to magic skill rolls due to gestures.

 

Optional disadvantages are: Full phase, OAF (staff) – but these must be taken on the whole multipower (thus affecting all spells)

 

Per-spell optional disadvantages are: expendable focus, extra end, extra time (concentration is throughout casting),

 

Outlawed Advantages: Charges/continuing charges, Trigger

Outlawed Powers: Pre/Retrocognition, Transforms with improved target group, FTL, Find weakness

 

A mage may optionally purchase an END battery, in which case all his spells will draw from that. The END battery may not refill on it’s own in under 5 hours. It is acceptable to have ways to refill the END battery based on a magical ceremony. Examples might be sacrifices, giant fires for fire mages, religious ceremonies with followers, etc…

 

=================================

 

Thoughts and feedback appreciated. There were many good posts before on this topic (including by the people who developed much of the above, but whose names I can't remember!!)

 

I wanted to get this posted to help out those starting FH campaigns.

 

-DG

[Yamo]

With Trigger outlawed, how do you handle the standard magic potions? Or does your campaign not use them?

[DarkGreen]

We don't have a good solution for potions yet. They have to be VERY carefully regulated, though, or it's very easy to abuse trigger effects.

 

Any ideas?

 

-DG

[Yamo]

We don't have a good solution for potions yet. They have to be VERY carefully regulated, though, or it's very easy to abuse trigger effects.

 

Any ideas?

 

-DG

 

The best balancing effect, as far as I'm concerned, isn't a mechanical one, but a story-based one. Specifically, the various components of magical potions should be strange and rare. They would either cost significant amounts of money (important in Heroic campaigns) or require dangerous quests to acquire. Possibly both! And when the PC does get his hands on the eye of newt or what-have-you, he'll have a finite quantity of it; enough for only a handful of draughts (and perhaps only one).

[jackcrow]

Fantasy magic using lay lines

 

I was wondering if anyone had created a magic system that used lay lines to control the amount of magic a person could cast at any one time. For those of you not familiar with lay lines, they are lines of magical force that magic users draw on to power their magical spells. The basic idea is that if the lay lines are strong and close a mage can cast more powerful spells than normal. If the lines are weak or far away the mage can only cast weaker spells.

 

The best thought I've come up with is require magical users to take all spells in a multi-power pool and power the spells from an END Reserve. Both the multi-power pool and the END Reserve must have a +0 power advantage "Active cost affected by lay lines." This would allow me to tell players at any given time whether their spells would be normal, extra strong or weaker than normal.

 

As a side effect, Magic users would get an extra sense similar to Mental Awareness that would allow them to sense Lay Lines and other mage's spells. e.g. spells with invisible power effects, etc. Mostly a role-playing aide.

 

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else had tried a similar system and how they managed the cost accounting of it.

 

Thanks

[Yamo]

Make the ley lines an Always On area effect Aid that increases all powers with the magic special effect simultaneously.

[DarkGreen]

Ley Lines

 

We actually recently implemented a ley line system that both lowers active points and boosts END reserve recovery on ley lines, and does even more at nexus points.

 

It's VERY fun because it gives a reason for all those weird mages and craftsmen to have remote subterrainean/mountaintop/etc bases. The dwarves turn out to be such good metalsmiths because they have learned to put their best forges at nexus points, shrines have to be in specific places, and suddenly it becomes a lot more important to defend the sacred tree (and so on).

 

I don't have the document handy for the effects but it was a dual effect - active points for skill purposes and recovery.

 

-DG

[dbsousa]

What do you think about bying potions outside of the MP?

 

Aid 5d6 (max. Aided Points: 30) (50 Active Points); 1 Charges which Never Recover (-4), Independent (-2), OAF Fragile (-1 1/4) 

Powers Cost: 6

 

That is an expensive Healing Potion to create, but wouldn't cost anything as equipment...

[Legendsmiths]

I invite you to review the magic system we use in our Fantasy Game. It's been absolutely fabulous and very fun to play.

 

It does deviate a little from "stock" Hero, but it is still Hero in all the right places.

 

http://www.tekhed.com/hero/magic.php

[Markdoc]

>>>>Powers Cost: 6

 

That is an expensive Healing Potion to create, but wouldn't cost anything as equipment...<<<<

 

I can't think of many players who would be willing to throw away 6 XP for a one shot healing potion - certianly none of my NPCs would be so daft!

 

I think Trigger is the only way to go for potions, with some anti-abuse safeguards built in (such as activation time, expensive components and the fact that you can't use multiples at the same time without risk).

 

cheers, Mark

[Guest joeteller]

Sounds Like...

 

You want to put a bunch of new limits and structures on the mages but do not give them any advantages in return for these limitations. This goes against the general theory of the system mechanics, and seems to be an attempt to change balance to fit some personal anti-mage bias on your part.

 

Why should there be more restrictions on a Mage spell system then on someone buying innate powers or powers on an object (magic item) that does the same thing?

[DarkGreen]

Joe-

 

I'm assuming you're referring to my post...

 

The mage doesn't have extra limitations on him, quite to the contrary he can use any rules anyone else can AND if he wants magic, there are the rules to access it above. Since no one else can buy powers it is NOT an anti-mage stance. Any campaigns need rules like that if you intend for the characters to not be supers. Now if you're going to let everyone buy powers, then your right and there's no benefit for the mage to use those rules at the top. We have played that way before (wound up with a party at 150pts that included a vampire, an earth elemental, and a demon) but it really wasn't a typical "fantasy" campaign and nobody cared about magic swords or anything like that.

 

If you're trying to have a balanced fantasy campaign, you need to have rules for the mage, just like in a supers campaign the GM will read through and make sure that the supers don't have bizarre stuff that he doesn't want in the campaign (like extradim movement usable as an attack, etc...).

 

-DG

[Guest joeteller]

Ahhh

 

I see, so basically everyone is delegated to playing 'normal' humans in the game you've set up, without races with odd abilities, magic weapons, or the ability to get things beyond normal hth weapons and normal ranged weapons (bows, slings, etc.) with no fancy arrows etc.

 

Thats a bit different than I pictured.... I can only remember one game in recent years I've been in that limited such access that way, it was more a historical setting than a magic one (and in the end the GM broke his own rules and let his best friend and his wife get non-humans after retiring their original characters).

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Joe

[Guest Keneton]

Triggered is only abusive if combined with Difficult to dispel. Leave it alone. It is an integral part of magic use in any Fantasy Hero campiagn. Why create a solution worse than the problem!?

 

Otherwise the suggestions seem ok but a little too limiting. I alos would not want to have to take the 1/2 DCV concentrate every time. Boy that would stink if I had to abort!

[DarkGreen]

Re: Ahhh

 

Originally posted by joeteller

I see, so basically everyone is delegated to playing 'normal' humans in the game you've set up, without races with odd abilities, magic weapons, or the ability to get things beyond normal hth weapons and normal ranged weapons (bows, slings, etc.) with no fancy arrows etc.

 

Thats a bit different than I pictured.... I can only remember one game in recent years I've been in that limited such access that way, it was more a historical setting than a magic one (and in the end the GM broke his own rules and let his best friend and his wife get non-humans after retiring their original characters).

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Joe

 

Hmmm... was that a flame?

 

Sigh. Of COURSE that's not how my FH game goes, otherwise would there be a magic system at all? As I'm sure you're aware, though, races are typically built ahead of time and the GM typically designs the magic weapons so they are under control. But no race in my campaign has abilities like, for example, desolidification or invisibility. And yet those things are available through magic. The rules above present a framework under which such abilities are accesible while keeping the fantasy flavor instead of turning FH into a superhero game.

 

Cheers,

 

-DG

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by Keneton

Triggered is only abusive if combined with Difficult to dispel. Leave it alone. It is an integral part of magic use in any Fantasy Hero campiagn. Why create a solution worse than the problem!?

 

Otherwise the suggestions seem ok but a little too limiting. I alos would not want to have to take the 1/2 DCV concentrate every time. Boy that would stink if I had to abort!

 

Keneton-

 

I used to allow trigger but then....

 

What about triggered combined with extra time? You wind up with mages (or alchemists for special effects) who spend hours pre-casting all their spells then just triggering them in combat. And every player will be firing arrows that explode on impact and every sword will do extra damage.

 

While the spells can be kept under more control (that was a reductio ad absurdium) the problem with trigger is that it makes most other limitations into non-factors. Who cares if a spell is cast at 0 DCV, takes a turn, and must be cast in a magic circle if the mage is just going to prepare them all the night before.

 

Most of my monsters don't have dispel abilities.

 

In my experience you need to make the mage cast IN COMBAT otherwise the limits get ridiculous and don't actually limit. As with many of the house rules I have a demo character who breaks it (has trigger on many spells) and he's something you would never, ever, want to see in the game.

 

As for the 1/2 DCV, you may be on to something there. Most mages don't complain about it since they rarely cast spells in close combat (after all, a sword has pretty hefty active points and is free). The only mage who's ever been hosed by it was one I was playing who got surprised from behind by something with reach while casting a spell and died as a result. We all agreed it was good adventuring though

 

I would probably let someone ditch the 1/2 DCV if they made a combat centered mage. But it's a nice default 'cause it lets the PC conan types totally wallop those annoying enemy sorcerers when they finally climb the trellis to their balcony

 

Cheers,

 

-DG

[Guest Keneton]

The trigger effect adds to the actice point cost of the power. By limiting the active points to say 50 you do away with your problem. Who cares if they have 5d6 AP Triggered Fire Arrow spell when they can have a pure 10d6 Fire Blast at the same cost!

 

Dont worry about trigger unless combined with other advantages.

 

In general single advantages are not bad. Stacjked advantages are the problem.

 

+1 stun x seems tame enough. Combine it with RKA, BOECV + 2 Stun x and at the lowest levels its a knockout attack.

 

Its the stacking and interaction that counts.

 

Another abuse is the 10xEND on a trigger spell. If players do this enforce long term end rules!

 

Another good conversation!

[Guest joeteller]

Not A Flame

 

I wasn't intending that post as a flame, I was trying to understand what you meant by the fact that some powers were only available via magic, and did not exist to non-mages in the way of magic items, racial abilities or tech-based means.

 

See, if mages are the only way to do X, then your restrictions make sense, but if they are available by some other means, then you are hamstringing the mages.

 

Additionally, of course one has to deal with the built-in prejudice in the mechanics of Hero in general. Hero loves over specialization in the way its point mechanic works, rather than characters that are well rounded. This inevitably leads to people playing stereotypes, which can be very annoying from my point of view.

 

Mages are, usually, best when designed as the ultimate generalist (this is on the same sort of model as say John Dee or Cagliostro or Pythagoras), but the system actually makes it difficult to be widely educated in related fields and instead makes one overly rely on the 'spell to do everything' design model... so instead of a John Constantine you end up with a Dr Strange/Green Lantern model becoming predominant.

 

Joe

[DarkGreen]

Re: Not A Flame

 

Originally posted by joeteller

I

Additionally, of course one has to deal with the built-in prejudice in the mechanics of Hero in general. Hero loves over specialization in the way its point mechanic works, rather than characters that are well rounded. This inevitably leads to people playing stereotypes, which can be very annoying from my point of view.

 

Mages are, usually, best when designed as the ultimate generalist (this is on the same sort of model as say John Dee or Cagliostro or Pythagoras), but the system actually makes it difficult to be widely educated in related fields and instead makes one overly rely on the 'spell to do everything' design model... so instead of a John Constantine you end up with a Dr Strange/Green Lantern model becoming predominant.

 

Joe-

 

That's actually the opposite of what we get with the magic system above!

 

When we used to use the version from the FH book people did indeed specialize. You would have the dream mage, for example, who had a big mental illusion spell and used it every phase. With the multipower method we use, however, each slot is typically 1-2 points (maybe 3 for big spells), and people think nothing of increasing their spellbook almost every session. I think every mage/cleric we've had has had spells for figuring things out, spells for movement, spells for helping others, and combat spells.

 

In general we find that the HERO system actually allows for less specialized characters than most other systems. This is what eventually sold it for the DnD fanatics. My last character, for example, was a dwarven axe wielder who also had "craft magic". He was a spellcaster who, in combat, typically went toe to toe with the enemy and who wore dwarven plate, but who knew a few spells that were useful out of combat. Very difficult to do efficiently in DnD, and yet it was very plausible with a 50+50pt FH character.

 

Of course, monks aren't as all-powerful in FH

 

-DG

[Lucius]

I get a subject line?

 

Another way to keep Triggers and Delayed Effect under control is to limit how many spells a character can have "active" (including ready triggers etc.) at one time. A common rule as I recall was that a mage could have one fifth of their INT in ready or active spells at one time. If you have a multipower, it gets even easier - if you have a triggered spell ready, those points can't be shifted without blowing the trigger and making you have to go through the preparations all over again. Also, with the point cost savings of a multipower, stacking a lot of limits for a triggerred or delayed spell is good for flavor but is not really saving the character an abusively large number of points.

 

Yes, I'm back. For now.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And so is the palindromedary

[Legendsmiths]

Ars Magica Style

 

This is as direct a conversion as I could come up with:

 

5 forms (create, control, destroy, change, perceive)

 

10 techniques (fire, earth, air, water, magic, body, animal, light, mind, ...)

 

Each is a learned as 2 point levels.

 

Spells have a complexity of Real Points/5. This complexity rating is doubled if the spell uses Special, Movement, or Defensive powers. The real points do not include any limitations for the caster (gestures, incantations, charges, endurance, concentration, etc.), although it may require some kind of consumable focus.

 

Casting Difficulty = Complexity + 11 + Target ECV or DCV

 

Spontaneous Spellcasting

Roll + ECV + (Form + Technique)/X >= Difficulty

 

X = 2 if the caster is willing to take 1d6 Long Term Endurance (LTE)

X = 5 if the caster chooses to suffer no fatigue (no LTE)

Crit success (17-18) has special effects, Crit failure (3-4) does as well.

 

This allows a caster to attempt any spell.

 

Formulaic Spellcasting

Roll + CON/3 + Form + Technique >= Difficulty

This requires the caster to have learned a spell by rote. Learning a spell in this manner costs 1 point per 2 levels of complexity (round down, minimum 1). Casting a spell successfully results in no END cost. Casting is still a success if the roll is missed by up to 4, but results in 1d6 Long Term Endurance. Missing by more than 4 results in spell failure and 1d6 LTE.

Crit success (17-18) has special effects, Crit failure (3-4) does as well.

Example: 
Ball of Abysmal Flame (create fire)
45 pts 3d6 Energy Killing Attack
40 pts 4d6 Sight Flash, Area Affect (4" radius)
= 85 pts = Complexity 17 = Casting Difficulty 32

Bolt of Searing Flame (create fire)
30 pts 2d6 Energy Killing Attack
= 30 pts = Complexity 6 = Casting Difficulty 21

Mage: ECV 5, CON 11 (CON/3 = 4), Create 8, Fire 5, Rote: 
Ball of Abysmal Flame. Assume target DCV of 4.

He would need a 15 or better to cast Ball of Abysmal Flame 
without LTE since he knows the spell (15 + CON/3 + 8 + 5 = 32), 
although he will be successful on an 11 or better with 1d6 LTE.

To cast Bolt of Searing Flame, which he does not know, 
he must cast it spontaneously. If he chose to suffer fatigue, 
he would need a 9 or better (9 + ECV + (8 + 5)/2 = 21). 
If he didn't want to suffer fatigue, 
he would need a 13 (13 + ECV + (8 + 5)/5 = 21).

[Guest Keneton]

Must the caster still have a power pool?

Is a Magic skill roll required?

Do you have to define the spells and pay for them with points?

 

Just a little clarification. the mechanics are interesting.

[DarkGreen]

Re: I get a subject line?

 

Originally posted by Lucius

Another way to keep Triggers and Delayed Effect under control is to limit how many spells a character can have "active" (including ready triggers etc.) at one time. A common rule as I recall was that a mage could have one fifth of their INT in ready or active spells at one time. If you have a multipower, it gets even easier - if you have a triggered spell ready, those points can't be shifted without blowing the trigger and making you have to go through the preparations all over again. Also, with the point cost savings of a multipower, stacking a lot of limits for a triggerred or delayed spell is good for flavor but is not really saving the character an abusively large number of points.

 

Good thoughts.

 

1) The character can still save lots of points. Witness the "alchemist" character whose whole spell multipower is triggered and has major disads like extra end, 0 end concentration, and extra time to cast. I think adding the rule about having to keep the points in that particular multipower slot might be an interesting idea, although in many cases it will have the same effect as outlawing trigger.

 

2) Having a maximum number of spells "ready" does seem like a good idea to me.

 

Another thought is that this is not a problem unique to HERO. in DnD anytime a spellcaster gets spells like fire trap or (especially) glyph of warding, it becomes logical to set up dozens or hundreds of prepared spells.

 

-DG

[Legendsmiths]

Originally posted by Keneton

Must the caster still have a power pool?

No. There is no power pool at all.

Is a Magic skill roll required?

Essentially, all spells are either spontaneous or formulaic, those are the only two rolls you would make.

Do you have to define the spells and pay for them with points?

In order to cast formulaic spells, you must "know" them (i.e. pay points). Learning spells in this manner costs 1 point per 2 points of Complexity (and complexity is already real cost/5). So, assuming -2 limitations, a 60 active point spell would have a real cost of 20. This gives it a complexity of 4, and it would cost 2 points to learn this spell by rote, allowing you to formulaically cast it. Otherwise you will have to cast it spontaneously, which limits your skill depending on how much END you are willing to pay.

 

This is almost identical to how spellcasting works in Ars Magica. Most mages do not know many spells by rote, relying on their skill to cast spells spontaneously. Obviously, as with any power pool type solution, you would want to have some common spells defined ahead of time, but you will still have the flexibility to cast them on the fly.

 

When I came up with the point costs I tried to balance them as closely as they are balanced in Ars. To be good at any spellcasting you want at least level 6 in one form and one technique (e.g. create and fire). That is already 24 points. Mages in Ars are way more powerful than any other character type, so using this system can easily unbalance a game. The system inherently favors mages.

 

There's a lot of non-hero goofiness here, especially since you are trying to roll high. However, I think the system works. The probabilities for spellcasting in my examples are pretty close to what they would be in Ars.

 

LTE is used because spellcasting, especially formulaic, is all about endurance. Taking fatigue in Ars was a process that could slow you down for the rest of the day, which LTE is good at simulating.