Disappointment

[firesnakearies]

Re: Disappointment

 

It IS based on the pen and paper game.

 

The phrase "based on" is not a precise one, and could mean a lot of different things. It could mean anything from taking a very basic inspiration from the general concept of something, all the way to an attempt to re-create something in as exacting detail as possible.

 

You're obviously expecting a greater level of granularity in the degree of strictness in that "basing on" than is actually present in Champions Online. There's nothing wrong with wanting that, or being disappointed that they chose to go for a broader, looser "basing on" instead. It's fine that you hoped for a more rigid adherence to the pen-and-paper rules as such, and I'm sorry that you're unhappy not to have gotten what you would have preferred.

 

However, the phrase "based on" in itself still doesn't HAVE TO mean exactly what you expect. If they'd used more specific language, such as "Champions Online offers the first faithful translation of the Champions roleplaying game rules to the online gaming format!" then perhaps you'd have more of a case against them for being misleading. But "based on" can mean a very wide range of things, and using that phrase isn't a deception just because it is representing a point on the spectrum of "basing on" that is on the far end from your expectations.

 

Look at it this way. If they'd made this game without buying any IP or rights from the Champions RPG owners, or entering into any agreement with them at all, and they'd named it something like "Super Champs Online", and never claimed any relation to "Champions" the pen-and-paper game . . . but everything about the game was exactly as it is now, don't you think they'd have been easily sued for copyright infringement? Of course they would have.

 

You said "literally nothing" of the pen-and-paper rules exists in the game? Literally nothing, really? How about the Champions-specific stat names?

 

Ego?

Presence?

Recovery?

 

These are common RPG attribute names? No.

 

The fact is, they could make any sort of RPG where you build a customized superhero character by choosing various powers, and say it was "based on" Champions, because that's a game concept that Champions pioneered. Legal issues aside, they could call City of Heroes "based on the Champions RPG" and it would be true. At least true enough, in the wide variance of possible meanings of "based on", to not be a lie or a trick.

 

None of this is even mentioning the fact that there are hundreds of place names and likenesses, character names and likenesses, events, and organizations in the game which are drawn directly from the pages of written Champions products.

 

If the creators of Champions Online were to sit down and make a detailed list of everything which exists in their game which also exists in the Champions RPG, every concept which has served as inspiration or which has been carried over directly, the list would be many thousands of items long.

 

All of this is more than sufficient to allow for a claim of "based on the pen and paper game" to be at least minimally accurate, if not more so. At least true enough to invalidate any nonsensical "they're trying to deceive/trick/lure people!" claims, and to make such claims look absurd to many rational observers.

 

Precedent shows us that there are many possible meanings and applications of the phrase "based on" when it comes to entertainment and media. They didn't mean the same thing by it that you wished they meant. That sucks, and I'm sorry for you. But what they DID mean by it was still just as legitimate, and honest, and factual. So stop suggesting that it was some kind of nefarious lie and that you've been wrongly deceived by it.

 

Really, it's just ludicrous at this point.

 

Complain all you want about the lack of adherence to the pen-and-paper rules, that's fine. Make suggestions. Tell us how they might implement some changes that would, in your opinion, make the game better. That's all good.

 

But stop attacking the company and acting like they did something "wrong" or deliberately misled you. They didn't.

[incrdbil]

Re: Disappointment

 

I am sorry that I have to keep repeating myself, but you insist on being dense about this. If their website, and their game make a claim, then they owe it to the customer to meet that claim.

 

 

Don't feed the troll folks.

[Jagged]

Re: Disappointment

 

We all know that CO isn't based on the PnP rules but if you were not an aficionado of on-line forums and you saw Champions Online for sale in your local computer store it would be some while before you realised it had nothing to do with the Hero System.

 

I also scoff at the idea that they have "taken plenty of inspiration from the HERO system" and think a more truthful description would be "confusingly borrows some Hero System terminology".

 

YMMV

[antiklaus]

Re: Disappointment

 

We all know that CO isn't based on the PnP rules but if you were not an aficionado of on-line forums and you saw Champions Online for sale in your local computer store it would be some while before you realised it had nothing to do with the Hero System.

 

I also scoff at the idea that they have "taken plenty of inspiration from the HERO system" and think a more truthful description would be "confusingly borrows some Hero System terminology".

 

YMMV

 

Jagged, it doesn't help that they have bludgeoned us with the fact that they claim (as from an in-game popup) "Champions Online is based upon the pen and Paper game created back in 1981" (their words, not mine).

 

Do I expect more than others by the terms "based upon"?

 

Likely, because I expect anything more than a skin. Wrapping the images of a few distinct characters from the Champions universe, and relabeling all of your statistics to match similar ones to the Champions game is *in my opinion* little more than draping a Champions skin over a Marvel Universe Online product.

 

Despite the claims of many, the decision to buy the Champions universe was not the end-result of jam-sessions and love fests for the Hero Games systems by die-hard fans.

 

It's an absolute fact that the fact that the same folks making this game have been sued over likeness rights by Marvel from their COH days. And that fact had more than a passing influence on their decision to legitimize their name with an established name like Champions.

 

Was it name-dropping?

 

To the legal department at Cryptic, without a doubt. To the sales department, I suspect so. Especially considering the desire to find an established base from which to draw customers. To the development staff, I have to hope otherwise, especially with the case that archermoo makes. I am part of a development team myself. I know, however, that developers get only a passing influence on the end-result of a product. The demands of the sales team often have a bigger influence on a product than you'd guess.

 

My problem is that to the end-customer that the name-dropping of the Champions label led many of us to expect that despite the different nature of the game (and such things we grow to expect) that the development team would be driven to make a game called Champions more like the namesake.

 

I think an attempt to recreate the pen and paper rules in an MMO would be silly and unbalanced. That said, there are so many things about the flexibility of the pen and paper rules that one would have to reasonably expect, especially considering the company's multiple press releases and developer's chats that have stressed that their goal has been to recreate the flexibility (if not feature for feature, at least some level of customizability) that the pen and paper game provided.

 

In that regards, I believe they have fallen short. Sure, CO is multiply times more customizable than COH. And I don't mean just the fantastic character editor either. They have added many more frameworks to the game than COH ever had. And if the goal of Champions Online was to merely, one-up COH, then I'd be a fool to call their progress anything but successful. However, that said, there have been a number of retoolings of the powers sets (for the sake of balance - I get that) that have made power sets more vanilla than ever. And the game designers have failed to deliver a product that gives us anything like the pnp character design process. If you have one fire-user, his powers will progress, and his power sets will mirror those of all fire-users in the game. Min-maxing and a heavy emphasis on pvp has ensured that a majority of the fire-users you meet will have virtually the same sets with little deviation.

 

I loved Champions for the feeling that I was playing *my* character. An incomprehensibly silly set of power dynamics ensures that I am forced to play the CO-filtered version of my character. The feeling is disappointing to say the least. So yes, they have confusingly borrowed terminology, but none of the mechanics.

 

All my various disappointments aside, I want CO to succeed.

 

But I have to say, the numbers are scary. At 10 PM CST, there were less than 200 people logged into the various instances of the desert. Despite my various attempts to convince my friends that CO will change to become more like their beloved pnp game, all but one has left, and his subscription expires tonight and he's told me he won't be coming back.

 

I don't want my investment in the game to be wasted, and I certainly don't like the idea that name dropping has likely doomed yet another Cryptic label.

[archermoo]

Re: Disappointment

 

Despite the claims of many, the decision to buy the Champions universe was not the end-result of jam-sessions and love fests for the Hero Games systems by die-hard fans.

 

Could you point out someone who has claimed that? You state that many have made that claim, so pointing out a single person, preferably by linking the post in which they made the claim, should be simple. I'll wait.

 

I'm also interested in what your source of information on what the basis of the decisions that Cryptic has made are. Since you continue to present them as fact rather than idle unsupported speculation I assume that you have some verifiable hard evidence to support your claims. Care to share it?

[antiklaus]

Re: Disappointment

 

It IS based on the pen and paper game.

 

 

You said "literally nothing" of the pen-and-paper rules exists in the game? Literally nothing, really? How about the Champions-specific stat names?

 

Ego?

Presence?

Recovery?

 

These are common RPG attribute names? No.

 

I appreciate that in your reply that you made an attempt to show me one example of influence of the pnp game on the actual game. This is more than anyone else has tried to do, and while I applaud your effort, I have to give you zero points for success at proving anything other than a cursory connection between the pnp and the MMO.

 

"A rose, by any other name" - and all that... STR/CON/DEX/EGO/PRE/REC means nothing if it has none of the related content to back it up.

 

Cryptic has gone out of it's way to make each stat as generic and similar as they can, while at the same time making them as dissimilar as they could be from the Champions equivalent statistics in attempt to "balance" gameplay and impose arbitrary level caps on abilities.

 

An example is that no matter how high your STR is, it only has, at best, a 30% buff to your STR-based powers.

 

So much for the guy who built his brick with a high strength and high PD/ED statistics. Those stats mean nothing more than a reflection of your "focus", your gear and to a lesser degree, your level.

 

To call the statistics "based upon" the pnp game is a stretch at best, and considerably more generous a description than they deserve. The stats are merely labels draped over the game engine for flavor.

 

That said, I do appreciate your attempt to answer my concern rather than merely be a mouthpiece for the apologists. I see a lot of promise in CO, despite a number of flaws. However, if no one is willing to complain, then CO will be at best a niche game, and at worst, a commercial failure.

[Guest Celt]

Re: Disappointment

 

Yeah, I'm gonna go with PLONK.

[archermoo]

Re: Disappointment

 

Yeah' date=' I'm gonna go with PLONK.[/quote']

 

Eh, I'm not convinced he is a troll yet. Though he does have a tendency to just ignore it when people ask him to support his assertions, which is a pretty big mark in the troll column.

[antiklaus]

Re: Disappointment

 

Could you point out someone who has claimed that? You state that many have made that claim, so pointing out a single person, preferably by linking the post in which they made the claim, should be simple. I'll wait.

 

Bill Roper has given everyone the impression that this is the case. Read his interviews. He gushes over the 1981 Champions pen and paper experience, despite the fact that his comments during devchat about pen and paper are all but hostile - and in many ways make jabs at the very same people he asks to build his community.

 

I'm also interested in what your source of information on what the basis of the decisions that Cryptic has made are. Since you continue to present them as fact rather than idle unsupported speculation I assume that you have some verifiable hard evidence to support your claims. Care to share it?

 

I wish that it was simple idle speculation. It's really a case of many very public "black eyes" that my friends find embarrassing and have talked about at length.

 

Cryptic themselves are curiously open about many policies that don't require a rocket scientist to see were ill-conceived from the start.

 

One prime example of a public business debacle was when Chris Stewart, who is a Web Programmer for Cryptic, started recruiting CO players in the COH forums and via in-game communications.

 

This was a matter of company policy until the story broke.

 

Toss in a little Ivan Sulic and the Marvel likeness lawsuit, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why Cryptic needed the Champions monicker.

 

The sad part is that it's all irrelevent to the gamer. We just want a game that is fun to play, and delivers what it promises (be that promise direct, or indirect). In an ideal universe those two things are not mutually exclusive.

[antiklaus]

Re: Disappointment

 

Eh' date=' I'm not convinced he is a troll yet. Though he does have a tendency to just ignore it when people ask him to support his assertions, which is a pretty big mark in the troll column.[/quote']

 

A troll wouldn't invest so much energy in a post.

 

Honestly, I have every indication that you and others are trolling me. I find it impossible to believe you could defend Cryptic's business decision making and in addition, how poorly they "based" their product on Champions. But maybe it's because I have a little more loyalty to the core product.

[antiklaus]

Re: Disappointment

 

Yeah' date=' I'm gonna go with PLONK.[/quote']

 

If you are referring to yourself, I'd have to agree. And I don't mean the cheap wine, either. Though your posts are starting to make me think of "cheap whines" so maybe the former is more on the mark then I thought.

[archermoo]

Re: Disappointment

 

Bill Roper has given everyone the impression that this is the case. Read his interviews. He gushes over the 1981 Champions pen and paper experience' date=' despite the fact that his comments during devchat about pen and paper are all but hostile - and in many ways make jabs at the very same people he asks to build his community.[/quote']

 

Ah, I had the impression you meant that people in this thread were doing it.

 

Could you provide a link to an example of what you're talking about from Mr. Roper?

 

I wish that it was simple idle speculation. It's really a case of many very public "black eyes" that my friends find embarrassing and have talked about at length.

 

Cryptic themselves are curiously open about many policies that don't require a rocket scientist to see were ill-conceived from the start.

 

One prime example of a public business debacle was when Chris Stewart, who is a Web Programmer for Cryptic, started recruiting CO players in the COH forums and via in-game communications.

 

This was a matter of company policy until the story broke.

 

Toss in a little Ivan Sulic and the Marvel likeness lawsuit, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why Cryptic needed the Champions monicker.

 

The sad part is that it's all irrelevent to the gamer. We just want a game that is fun to play, and delivers what it promises (be that promise direct, or indirect). In an ideal universe those two things are not mutually exclusive.

 

Ah, so unsupported speculation then. Thanks for verifying it.

[archermoo]

Re: Disappointment

 

A troll wouldn't invest so much energy in a post.

 

What makes you think that? Trolls routinely invest large quantities of time and energy into posts, doing their best to get the replies that they crave.

 

Honestly' date=' I have every indication that you and others are trolling me. [/quote']

 

Ah, so asking you to support your assertions qualifies as trolling?

 

I find it impossible to believe you could defend Cryptic's business decision making and in addition' date=' how poorly they "based" their product on Champions. [/quote']

 

Your lack of imagination isn't really my problem. I know it can be difficult to believe that there are people that disagree with you about things, but I assure you that it is possible. People don't even have to be paid to do it.

 

But maybe it's because I have a little more loyalty to the core product.

 

I doubt it. It seems more likely to me that it is due to a combination of having more information than you and not having had the same expectations that you had going in to it.

[antiklaus]

Re: Disappointment

 

Ah, so unsupported speculation then. Thanks for verifying it.

 

Unsupported, except for all those pesky articles from WIRED magazine, and the likes.

 

Unlike your assertions that CO never claimed to be based upon the pnp game.

[archermoo]

Re: Disappointment

 

Unsupported' date=' except for all those pesky articles from WIRED magazine, and the likes.[/quote']

 

How does them recruiting players from a different superhero MMO or the fact that they got sued by Marvel show that no one at Cryptic plays the PnP Champions? Or that the only reason that they wanted to buy the Champions Universe IP was based on legal reasons? Or any of the other unsupported assertions you've been making?

 

Unlike your assertions that CO never claimed to be based upon the pnp game.

 

I never claimed that. In fact I've asked you repeatedly for any substantiation of your claim that it is in no way based on the pnp game. I pointed out that they never claimed that it would use the Hero System rules. And in fact not only did they not claim it, they specifically noted that the game would in fact not be using the Hero System rules.

 

Do you really feel that your position is so weak that you need to lie about what other people have said to "prove" your points?

 

Oh, and were you able to find any substantiation of your claims about Mr. Roper's position on the PnP game? Or should I file that under "unsubstantiated" as well?

[antiklaus]

Re: Disappointment

 

How does them recruiting players from a different superhero MMO or the fact that they got sued by Marvel show that no one at Cryptic plays the PnP Champions? Or that the only reason that they wanted to buy the Champions Universe IP was based on legal reasons?

 

When did I ever say that? See, once again, you shove words into my mouth, and then expect me to take you seriously when you make the same claim...

 

I'm really growing bored of your he-said, I-said replies. You seem to want to read into what I say whatever keeps you from having to reply to the core complaints that I've posted. Enough of the diversions already. Seriously.

 

You say that they never claimed it would use Hero System rules is an answer to the absolute fact that the game itself claims to have been based upon the 1981 incarnation of the pen and paper game, not only in the holy words of Steve Roper, but in the in-game messages that pop up between levels.

 

That's one of those underhanded apoligist tactics that will drive this game into a niche market or into oblivion.

 

If you are unwilling to admit that Cryptic has been guilty of underhanded tactics (I refer you to the WIRED article about trying to steal customers from their previous parners - Google it), then how will you even admit a bigger fault, that they are being misleading to their current clients? You won't. Your mind is made up.

 

Do you really feel that your position is so weak that you need to lie about what other people have said to "prove" your points?

 

Oh, and were you able to find any substantiation of your claims about Mr. Roper's position on the PnP game? Or should I file that under "unsubstantiated" as well?

 

You are the one who is completely oblivious to the facts. Roper has many times in interviews gushed as I said. If you cannot be bothered to Google, I'm not going to bother posting the links.

 

And as for Roper's rudeness to the pnp enthusiasts, just look at the devchat logs anytime anyone brings up pnp features in the game. If you haven't, then you are hardly an authority to make any comments on his positions.

 

 

Look. Your mind is probably already made up on this issue. Give it a rest already. I'd like to see Cryptic learn from its mistakes and give us a better game. You'd rather defend their ineptitude and dishonesty. We get it. If you want to add positive commentary about how you think that Cryptic will make the game better for those of us who are disappointed, I'm glad to hear what your inside knowledge has to glean for us. Otherwise, I really don't want to hear your tired record.

 

Seriously. If you are not trolling, noone ever has. I'm simply tired of it.

[archermoo]

Re: Disappointment

 

When did I ever say that? See, once again, you shove words into my mouth, and then expect me to take you seriously when you make the same claim...

 

I'm really growing bored of your he-said, I-said replies. You seem to want to read into what I say whatever keeps you from having to reply to the core complaints that I've posted. Enough of the diversions already. Seriously.

 

You say that they never claimed it would use Hero System rules is an answer to the absolute fact that the game itself claims to have been based upon the 1981 incarnation of the pen and paper game, not only in the holy words of Steve Roper, but in the in-game messages that pop up between levels.

 

That's one of those underhanded apoligist tactics that will drive this game into a niche market or into oblivion.

 

If you are unwilling to admit that Cryptic has been guilty of underhanded tactics (I refer you to the WIRED article about trying to steal customers from their previous parners - Google it), then how will you even admit a bigger fault, that they are being misleading to their current clients? You won't. Your mind is made up.

 

You're right, you didn't say that no one at Cryptic played Champions. You said that if anyone did they got overridden. I don't see how anything you've posted has substantiated that.

 

I've said it several times, but you seem to be missing that I've never intended to address your core concerns. You think they did a bad job on CO and would love them to fix it. Fine and dandy. That's your opinion, and while I disagree with it it is an opinion and there isn't really much to address. All I've ever been addressing is your representing your opinions as to why they have done things as facts instead of the unsupported assumptions that they are.

 

One of those assumptions on your part being that they set out to intentionally mislead people into thinking that CO would be using the Hero System rules. Another is the assertion that they simply re-used the MO code that they had been working on without making anything other than cosmetic changes. Another is that any developers who are fans of the PnP game have had their voices stifled.

 

It is one thing to say that they didn't implement the game in the way that you would enjoy best. It is another to make up reasons for it and pretend that they are facts.

 

You are the one who is completely oblivious to the facts. Roper has many times in interviews gushed as I said. If you cannot be bothered to Google, I'm not going to bother posting the links.

 

And as for Roper's rudeness to the pnp enthusiasts, just look at the devchat logs anytime anyone brings up pnp features in the game. If you haven't, then you are hardly an authority to make any comments on his positions.

 

Look. Your mind is probably already made up on this issue. Give it a rest already. I'd like to see Cryptic learn from its mistakes and give us a better game. You'd rather defend their ineptitude and dishonesty. We get it. If you want to add positive commentary about how you think that Cryptic will make the game better for those of us who are disappointed, I'm glad to hear what your inside knowledge has to glean for us. Otherwise, I really don't want to hear your tired record.

 

Seriously. If you are not trolling, noone ever has. I'm simply tired of it.

 

You do realize that there is a difference between not implementing features that some people are asking for and hostility, right? And as to finding proof, you are the one that is making claims. If you can't be bothered to substantiate those claims I'll just assume that they are as accurate as the rest of the stuff you've been claiming. Which is to say not.

 

And of note, I have never claimed that Cryptic is planning on changing the game to make it more like you wish it was. I've been taking issue with specific comments you have been making and presenting as fact, not with what you feel are shortcomings of the game. Heck I'd probably be just as interested as you in some of the changes you'd like to see. I just take issue with people presenting unfounded assertions about the motivation and intent of others as fact instead of what they are.

 

And of note, I've never claimed to be an expert on Bill Roper. You are the one who brought him up. I never said you were wrong about him, I simply asked for substantiation of your claims. He was brought on board the CO project about the same time my daughter was born (November 2008), at which point I was no longer following the project as much as I had been previously, so I'm not overly familiar with him. He isn't one of the Champions/Hero System fans that I was talking about. The most notable one I can think of on staff at Cryptic is Jack Emmert. At GenCon 2008 he was doing a pretty good job in their trivia contest of pulling alternately Hero System trivia and Comic Book trivia off the top of his head for their swag giveaway.

 

At least from my POV it seems more that you are the one with the pre-made up mind. Which is fine: They didn't do what you consider a good job on the project, and you wish they had. That's fine, and a valid position. I just don't see why you feel the need to pretend that you have knowledge that you don't to bolster your opinions.

[Kristopher]

Re: Disappointment

 

MOD: Consider this a general warning.

 

 

I don't play CO. I don't care, either -- opinions and debates about it mean very little to me. What I do care about is the lack of civility by multiple partipants in this dicussion. Comprende?

[Jagged]

Re: Disappointment

 

I would be interested in knowing what they write on their game packaging. Assuming they sell the product other than just online.

 

They used to say in their "About Champions Online" section that it was "based on the popular pen-and-paper Champions role-playing game" which I considered to be deliberately misleading. It would be better to say "based upon the Champions Universe and its characters"

 

They still say in response to the question "where did the idea come from?" that the game is "based on the popular pen-and-paper Champions role-playing game" which is also misleading. That sentence makes you think they built something with Champions in mind and not that they built something with Marvel in mind and then tried to make it like Champions.

[hooligan x]

Re: Disappointment

 

Problem solver: Don't play the game. If you spent $260 on the game and the lifetime package based on a pretty box in the mall, ah well. I don't drop 26 bucks on something I haven't researched online, so I was completely informed on my purchase.

 

I suggest you sell your CO account on Craigs List to someone who will enjoy the game. No one has defrauded you. Champions Online IS based on the pnp game. Look, I just saw Foxbat! Hey, Grond beat me up! Just because I am not negative 20 STUN and waiting for a post-phase 12 recovery doesn't mean it wasn't based on the game. It is different. A small amount of research would have told you that before your purchase.

 

Good news, however. There is a game based on the Champions game mechanics. It's called Hero 6th Edition and it's a hell of a game. I'll mail you a pencil and a piece of paper to get you started. All you need is a few friends.

[antiklaus]

Re: Disappointment

 

I would be interested in knowing what they write on their game packaging. Assuming they sell the product other than just online.

 

They used to say in their "About Champions Online" section that it was "based on the popular pen-and-paper Champions role-playing game" which I considered to be deliberately misleading. It would be better to say "based upon the Champions Universe and its characters"

 

They still say in response to the question "where did the idea come from?" that the game is "based on the popular pen-and-paper Champions role-playing game" which is also misleading. That sentence makes you think they built something with Champions in mind and not that they built something with Marvel in mind and then tried to make it like Champions.

 

Heck, they still say it in the in-game messages.

 

In my opinion (and having long-running experience as a programmer and dealing with legal departments on similar issues), the reason for using the Champions name is twofold.

 

One, instant name recognition to an established base of potential customers. Did they milk this recognition in the BETA stage of things? There is no doubt. They had people shilling for people to join the BETA in a number of forums that had the Champions heading, and also in the forums of COH. It wouldn't have left such a bad impression had they merely stated at the onset that they had no intention of actually basing the game on the Champions game, other than visually. But they left the impression with many of their fish that they were going for a flexible system that would emulate many of the game's key features. After being put under the screws in devchat, however, Bill Roper has distanced himself from these promises, and shown thinly veiled hostility towards those who would like to see even a few of the pnp game's signature features included. He has a vision to make this game something other than Champions as we know it. That's his perogative. However, he'd better do something pretty amazing if he expects to keep people around. So far, lack of endgame, and the repetative nature of leveling through the same missions is a serious turn-off. If I wanted the same amount of content that is common in a single-player game as an MMO, I would have simply bought the single-player game and had none of the lag and technical issues (not to mention the game-breaking rebalancing they constantly do - often without a respec) - I mean seriously, if I wanted to pay to BETA test software, I'd start paying my boss.

 

The second reason for the Champions monicker is simple. Cryptic does not want to be sued for being a Marvel Online game. So in that regards, they are going to do all they can to distance themselves from that label. It's not unexpected that from the legal standpoint that they would tout that they were based upon the Champions pen and paper game - and repeatedly, so that there is a legal foot to stand on when Marvel or some subsidiary comes along claiming foul. That said, and understood, even, it's shameful that the Champions part of the CO experience is given only the aesthetic.

 

No one wants a turn-based MMO. It'd be foolish to try to recreate Champions rules sets in an online game. However, there are many features of the game which would give each character a bit more flavor and uniqueness that the folks at Cryptic have pretty much taken off the table, sadly with little more than passing consideration - if any.

 

I've tried really hard to take off my Champions goggles and view CO as a free-standing product on its own. The unfortunate fact is that when I do, the disappointments grow even more profound. Viewed from the standpoint of a non-Champions MMO, I find myself wondering what kind of future there is for this game. The mechanics of game are revamped multiple times in the first month, many are done in a game-breaking fashion for many builds, especially munitions and sorcery. The endgame content seems to have been developed as an afterthought, and the xp requirements to reach level 40 are raised, without adding the commensurate level of working content to get there. While Blood Moon promises more content, the majority is touted as PvP, and the PvP experience is lackluster and repetative. Unless you are playing one of the flavor of the month builds, you are relegated to a lot of deaths and the feeling that you are playing in the BETA of a game - some power sets are horribly broken, and others so obviously overpowered - and yet the requests to have them fixed are ignored for the 'rebalancing' that has done nothing more but make PvE and PvP even more difficult for those who don't ascribe to the flavor of the month build, and try to actually play their own characters.

[Panpiper]

Re: Disappointment

 

I started playing the first edition of the tabletop Champions RPG in the year it first came out. I was a rabid fan. I was a crusader for the Hero System all through the second, third and fourth editions. All other games utterly paled in comparison to the total freedom the Hero System conferred to create virtually anything one could imagine. And the tactical depth of the game rivaled that of the inch thick rule book wargames we also played. Then around fifteen years ago, I drifted from the fold, leaving behind my glory days of gaming.

 

Then just yesterday, I learned that Champions had been brought online! Imagine my excitement! I hurriedly looked it up and started reading. And as the hours passed and I tried to fathom what I was reading, my furrowed brow grew to a frown. And now it is one of supreme disappointment.

 

I do not know what this game is, but it is NOT Champions or the Hero System. It does not even bear a superficial resemblance! Gone is the point build system. Gone is the fine control over stats and powers. Gone is the very game mechanics that made Champions as much a war game as it was a role playing game. In it's place is a system with frigging 'levels'! As if we've learned nothing since the days of basic D&D! This game system has more similarity to Diablo than the original Champions.

 

Here we have a game that has bought the rights to a name, and thrown everything out except for the original chrome, the very chrome which was universally acknowledged among the people I gamed with as the weakest element of the original game. Seldom have I been so disappointed.

 

I am certain someone will be motivated to post a 'play the game and give it a chance' followup to this. I would preemptively retort; why on earth would I want to play this game? It has NO resemblance, none whatsoever, to my beloved game system other than it being based on superheroes. I don't want to play a super hero game. If I did I'd already be playing one. I wanted to play the Hero System. Alas, such now shall never be.

[incrdbil]

Re: Disappointment

 

I'm having a wierd feeling. I call it..deja-troll.

[Panpiper]

Re: Disappointment

 

I'm having a wierd feeling. I call it..deja-troll.

No, if I was a troll I would start my own thread. I would not post my disappointment on page seven of an appropriately named thread. And I especially would not fail to attack actual posters if I did. (My disappointment was stated politely, without invective, and I did not attack people.)

 

I would have LOVED to play the Hero System online. I am legitimately very disappointed. I availed myself of this thread to simply say so.

[hooligan x]

Re: Disappointment

 

I would have LOVED to play the Hero System online. I am legitimately very disappointed. I availed myself of this thread to simply say so.

 

Since you are new to the board, you may not be aware of HeroCentral, where many of us play the Hero System online. It is a text based play-by-post so no shiny video, but it's the real deal. And since it runs off of donations and Mr. Simon's toil, you won't need to risk any money.