Nyrath Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? SF author Ken MacLeod said "History is the trade secret of science fiction." And of course this should tell all intelligent Star Hero game masters that history can be your trade secret as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Yeah but then you get, "THAT player." ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Sounds a little like Rome... Isaac Asimov was also the very first science fiction writer to rip off Belisarius, in the form of General Bel Riose, the Trantorian leader who nearly defeated the Foundation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted January 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? The water would be another issue too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Mackinder Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? ... AND the traffic control. Imagine what is needed just to cope with all those inbound (and outbound) spacefreighters, making sure they arrive safely and get sent to the correct docking area - plus the flexibility to cope with errors, accidents, incidents, malfunctions, unforeseen events, simple tardiness and the downright bizarre (in varying combinations and degrees of severity) as they occur. Then there is the infrastructure needed to unload all that cargo (much of which will undoubtedly have "special needs" in terms of handling and environment) AND get those goods moving to their final destinations. Add on top of all that such considerations as customs, security, tariffs / taxation and so forth. Sounds to me they might need at least one extra moonload of specialist bureaucrats (with attendant high-powered computers) just to handle all this. Or maybe one largish continent on the throneworld was set aside just for this purpose. People speculate about a globe-spanning city - what sort of starport might such a thing have? Probably a whole bunch, OR one or a few that are frackin' enormous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted January 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Not to mention the Department of Sanitation . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Hey, that's a good point. If they're shipping in millions of tons of food, does that mean the population is producing millions of tons of crap? What do they do with it all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? The sewage gets processed into fertilizer for the enormous sublevel farms. Duh. Seriously, I never understood why people can't conceive of cities and high-tech farms coexisting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted January 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? The sewage gets processed into fertilizer for the enormous sublevel farms. Duh. Seriously, I never understood why people can't conceive of cities and high-tech farms coexisting. The entire planet is a city. I don't think there's much room for farms. http://irregularwebcomic.net/386.html http://irregularwebcomic.net/393.html http://irregularwebcomic.net/396.html http://irregularwebcomic.net/417.html http://irregularwebcomic.net/431.html ... AND the traffic control. Imagine what is needed just to cope with all those inbound (and outbound) spacefreighters, making sure they arrive safely and get sent to the correct docking area - plus the flexibility to cope with errors, accidents, incidents, malfunctions, unforeseen events, simple tardiness and the downright bizarre (in varying combinations and degrees of severity) as they occur. Then there is the infrastructure needed to unload all that cargo (much of which will undoubtedly have "special needs" in terms of handling and environment) AND get those goods moving to their final destinations. Add on top of all that such considerations as customs, security, tariffs / taxation and so forth. Sounds to me they might need at least one extra moonload of specialist bureaucrats (with attendant high-powered computers) just to handle all this. Or maybe one largish continent on the throneworld was set aside just for this purpose. People speculate about a globe-spanning city - what sort of starport might such a thing have? Probably a whole bunch, OR one or a few that are frackin' enormous. Don't forget invasive species catching a ride with some grains being transported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Hey' date=' that's a good point. If they're shipping in millions of tons of food, does that mean the population is producing millions of tons of crap? What do they do with it all?[/quote'] Well, there is no sense in all those food transport starships going back home empty... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Hey' date=' that's a good point. If they're shipping in millions of tons of food, does that mean the population is producing millions of tons of crap? What do they do with it all?[/quote'] every now and then they launch a new moon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? The entire planet is a city. I don't think there's much room for farms. I rest my case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Realistically speaking, it would be cheaper to just put farms IN some of the buildings than to ship in food over interstellar distances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted January 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Realistically speaking' date=' it would be cheaper to just put farms IN some of the buildings than to ship in food over interstellar distances.[/quote'] Perhaps, but it seems those theoretical buildings are already occupied, and the thousands of planets dedicated to farming are steadily producing away. They've dug the logic grave long ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? I would suggest that it's not a matter of logic at all -- such a world as Corruscant can only exist in space fantasy with non-rigorous worldbuilding and no sense of scale. Such worlds exist because they're "really neat". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Realistically speaking' date=' it would be cheaper to just put farms IN some of the buildings than to ship in food over interstellar distances.[/quote'] Exactly. Those buildings are enormous. Plus some of those industrial-looking areas all over the freaking place could be dedicated to producing food. It's not really rocket science. And that's assuming the entire planet is as dense as the center of government region we only ever saw, which is not an assumption I'd make. Cities aren't just downtown. I would suggest that it's not a matter of logic at all -- such a world as Corruscant can only exist in space fantasy with non-rigorous worldbuilding and no sense of scale. Such worlds exist because they're "really neat". In the case of Star Wars, that's true. There's no attempt to justify anything with science, which is just fine for a fantasy setting like that. However positing a way for it to work is a reasonable world-building exercise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? There's two things going on for Asimov's Empirial Throne World: 1) When he wrote it, current science at the time hadn't quite conceived of the vertical greenhouses we have in the last decade. They are a really new development in ideas. 2) He was modeling a City-State. He wanted the planet to BE a single City, just on a huge scale. Sure, it was a Planet, but it also merely just the Capitol City. As such, for the point of number 2; even if he had conceived of Green-House Sky-Scrapers he might just have ditched them otherwise part of his model for the fall, and thus his narrative and allusions to Rome, fail. Creating a self-sustaining model would have defeated the purpose from the outset. Now, from a more realistic, er sorry "realistic" point of view - a planet-wide city would have removed the ability to have mining zones, heck by the city you've covered the planet in a giant metal shell and called it a city (and it was very much modeled after the Earth Cities of his R Daneel novels, which were giant encased climate controlled buildings caleld "cities") you've likely stripped the planet of all resources and any time you need to build, add--on, repair or rebuild something it has to be shipped in. And then, can you even install enough Food-Towers to feed 40 billion? Maybe, but chances are there's a ton of supplements coming in anyways. Just my thoughts on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Realistically speaking' date=' it would be cheaper to just put farms IN some of the buildings than to ship in food over interstellar distances.[/quote'] The Trantorian model for Coruscant did just that functionally with it's "yeast vats" but still needed external trade to supplement local production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted January 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? What is Trantorian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? What is Trantorian? Trantor was the capital of the Galactic Empire in Isaac Asimov's Foundation series. Like Coruscant it supposedly had a city that encompassed the entire entire planet...at least the land parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Trantor was the capital of the Galactic Empire in Isaac Asimov's Foundation series. Like Coruscant it supposedly had a city that encompassed the entire entire planet...at least the land parts. More to the point, the concept of Coruscant as single city encompassing the entire planet was .... borrowed ... from Trantor. This is because Isaac Asimov first wrote about Trantor in 1942. Anybody who wants to do a decline and fall of the Galactic Empire campaign owes it to themselves to read the Foundation Trilogy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? More to the point' date=' the concept of Coruscant as single city encompassing the entire planet was .... borrowed ... from Trantor.[/quote'] No more than Tatooine was borrowed from Dune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Given the ease of FTL travel in Star Wars, a planet-wide city isn't a stretch. There aren't huge fields of wheat and cattle pastures in the middle of New York City or LA. Food gets shipped in from outside, often from farther away than was feasible 200 years ago. Just as railroads and non-sailed ships have made it a trivial matter to have tropical fruits and out-of-season vegetables on our tables on a daily basis, trivially easy FTL travel makes it possible to have food on the tables on Coruscant every day. IIRC, FTL travel in Asimov's Foundation universe wasn't too hard either, at least for the Foundation and the pre-fall Empire. The same therefore holds true for Trantor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Matter of scale. It's rare to find science fiction with an actual sense of scale. There are orders of magnitude in scale and complexity and vulnerability between feeding NYC from across the US, and feeding a world of 60 billion from across galaxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StGrimblefig Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Re: Are single climate/habitat worlds really possible? Hey' date=' that's a good point. If they're shipping in millions of tons of food, does that mean the population is producing millions of tons of crap? What do they do with it all?[/quote'] Soylent Brown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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