The Hero System is bland and over complicated

[Enforcer84]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Thus' date=' as someone who obviously never played, he probably should refrain from commenting on the system until he had actually played. In support of this, I refrained from saying anything negative about D&D 4ed until I had actually played a session. I would never critique a system until I had a chance to play it especially in such a public forum and as someone who obviously comments on a lot of systems.[/quote']

 

How do you know he's never played?

(I haven't watched, how obvious is it?)

[RPMiller]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

How do you know he's never played?

(I haven't watched, how obvious is it?)

 

Based solely on what he says, I think it is pretty obvious. He only refers to the rule book, not to any play experience.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Just curious here: what is an example of a system with a setting that is spoon-fed to the reader?

 

You mean, kind of like the way you're demanding to be spoon-fed a point-by-point explanation of my entire post?

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

You mean' date=' kind of like the way you're demanding to be spoon-fed a point-by-point explanation of my entire post?[/quote']

 

What's the difference between someone that exclusively plays systems that come with a setting (that may even be integrated in) and say nothing, and someone that exclusively plays systems that come with a setting and complain about a system does not?

[mojo_bones]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

(Old man hat goes on)

 

When I first started playing this system, it WAS a single genre game. The rules were simpler (and you could not do nearly as much) but very specific to the superhero genre. I still refer to the system as "Champions" rather than "Hero" sometimes out of habit. The system evolved from a single genre system into a more generic system. It would be like if D&D over time adopted new rules, went through different versions and eventually had a bunch of different genre games you could do with the system... oh wait.

 

(Yes, I think the guy in the video is a way off base)

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

He looks like Dr. Venture...Only he's uglier and more of a loser.

 

On a serious note, it sounds to me like it's 5th Ed he's dissing and, as I'm sure most of you can imagine, that really pisses me off.

[mallet]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

This is the type of argument that has been going on for years and I would for it to be solved one day soon.

 

I would, really, really, really love for Hero to release and official game/setting for each of it's major genres. Champions, Fantasy Hero & Star Hero.

 

And I am not talking simply about the Terakian Age or Terran Empire (although I do like both of those settings) but a full on game. That has specific starting points, DC levels, Spell Lists, equipment lists, everything like that, PLUS take out the rules stuff that should not be in the game. The Hero System is a tool kit. But we only ever see the final product of using those tools from a fan made source. I'd love to see an official setting. A self contained book. That includes all the rules needed to play that specific game. Then if ambitious GM's would like to expand on the game in their own way they can use the tool kit to do so, since all of the rules will work together.

 

For example, if the official Star Hero game/setting had cyberware but no bioware and didn't use hit locations, but a GM wanted to add both, he could buy the tool kit (main rules) and figure out how to add them to his game... But he wouldn't need to. If he liked the game/setting as is he could leave it alone.

 

A couple of products like this would do wonders to end these types of arguments and the narrow mindedness of a lot of other RPG fans out there about the Hero System. Plus it would draw in new players and GM's who don't want to spend the time and effort to build a whole world for themselves and work out all of the balance issues. Then, once they learned the specific rules they needed to play that specific game they would have a basic understanding of the Hero System and could develop and grow from there by buying the core rule books.

 

I know where I live at least it is damn hard to get people to play the hero game. First a lot of them don't want to buy and read the two massive core books just to learn the rules and second it is a lot harder to sell them on a game without some sort of official setting to draw them in. Sure I can tell them about my setting, and the base points, numbers, etc... but unless I write it all up and lay it out in pretty typeface it won't seem "real" to them, and there will be no pictures.

 

It would be so easy though to tell them, "hey want to run a Terran empire game. Buy the book or PDF. learn the rules and setting and make up a character. we will be meeting up on..."

 

Then everyone would be on the same page. They would all know the same info. Select from the same gear and ability lists, etc... and if someone wanted something special or different I could crack out the core books and build it for them.

 

That is something I firmly believe would draw more fans into the game, generate more sales and end the endless arguments like this.

 

Steve comes up with great settings (I feel) I'd love to see him make one using the Hero System rules as a fully self-contained game. One book, pick up and buy. Specific rules and setting all together. Maybe his Stormlords idea? Just fully flushed out and expanded.

 

"Slavery is freedom" hard words, but fitting in this setting. Many players (and GMs) are scared of too many choices. It is too big. Too open. They freeze up. The best way to end it is by limiting their options. giving them specific powers, rules, etc... less is more in this case.

 

Keep the core rules for the ambitious and certainly direct the players and GM's to them, but first give them a game they can play "right out of the box".

[Ragnarok]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Not too long ago Narf the Mouse and Teh Bunneh came up with essentially a 2-page crash course on what HERO rules the players need to know. I feel like that is instrumental in keeping new players' interest, and if you already have a setting in mind, then it's not too difficult to start up a campaign.

[assault]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

And I am not talking simply about the Terakian Age or Terran Empire (although I do like both of those settings) but a full on game. That has specific starting points' date=' DC levels, Spell Lists, equipment lists, everything like that, PLUS take out the rules stuff that should [i']not[/i] be in the game.

 

Sounds a bit like the PS238 game.

[mallet]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Not too long ago Narf the Mouse and Teh Bunneh came up with essentially a 2-page crash course on what HERO rules the players need to know. I feel like that is instrumental in keeping new players' interest' date=' and if you already have a setting in mind, then it's not too difficult to start up a campaign.[/quote']

 

But it is. The two page rules are great for understanding how to hit and all of that but it doesn't help with the building of characters, abilities, and mood. Any long time player of Hero can build a low AP power that is a game breaker, and anyone can build a super expensive 200 point power that will be completely useless in most games. That is where a specific setting, fully flushed out, is a great help for both GM's and players. It gives you the context needed to build the characters and play the game.

 

Just "having a idea on the settings" does not make a playable game.

 

Just saying, read this two-page rule description and we are playing a "Forgotten Realms type setting" will not get people excited to play and does not give them enough information to even come close to making a character that might fit into the game. They will say, "why not just use the D&D rules then? That way everyone will be on the same page."

 

Hero is amazing. and complex. and there are dozens of options and ways to do almost anything. Just look around these threads. All those options actually make it almost impossible to get people to play. There really needs to be a hard and fast setting/rules combo that can show people just how to use the "tool kit" that is the core rules. Something RPG fans can pick up and buy and use with out the gm spending weeks and weeks designing the full setting, rules allowed and disallowed, explaining why, etc... Most people don't want to have to design an entire game (picking and choosing rules, finding the right balance, tone & mood) and then also building the whole setting just to play a once a week rpg with their friends.

[mallet]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Sounds a bit like the PS238 game.

 

Exactly! Something like that but bigger and more flushed out.

[mojo_bones]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

This is the type of argument that has been going on for years and I would for it to be solved one day soon.

 

I would, really, really, really love for Hero to release and official game/setting for each of it's major genres. Champions, Fantasy Hero & Star Hero.

 

And I am not talking simply about the Terakian Age or Terran Empire (although I do like both of those settings) but a full on game. That has specific starting points, DC levels, Spell Lists, equipment lists, everything like that, PLUS take out the rules stuff that should not be in the game. The Hero System is a tool kit. But we only ever see the final product of using those tools from a fan made source. I'd love to see an official setting. A self contained book. That includes all the rules needed to play that specific game. Then if ambitious GM's would like to expand on the game in their own way they can use the tool kit to do so, since all of the rules will work together.

 

For example, if the official Star Hero game/setting had cyberware but no bioware and didn't use hit locations, but a GM wanted to add both, he could buy the tool kit (main rules) and figure out how to add them to his game... But he wouldn't need to. If he liked the game/setting as is he could leave it alone.

 

A couple of products like this would do wonders to end these types of arguments and the narrow mindedness of a lot of other RPG fans out there about the Hero System. Plus it would draw in new players and GM's who don't want to spend the time and effort to build a whole world for themselves and work out all of the balance issues. Then, once they learned the specific rules they needed to play that specific game they would have a basic understanding of the Hero System and could develop and grow from there by buying the core rule books.

 

I know where I live at least it is damn hard to get people to play the hero game. First a lot of them don't want to buy and read the two massive core books just to learn the rules and second it is a lot harder to sell them on a game without some sort of official setting to draw them in. Sure I can tell them about my setting, and the base points, numbers, etc... but unless I write it all up and lay it out in pretty typeface it won't seem "real" to them, and there will be no pictures.

 

It would be so easy though to tell them, "hey want to run a Terran empire game. Buy the book or PDF. learn the rules and setting and make up a character. we will be meeting up on..."

 

Then everyone would be on the same page. They would all know the same info. Select from the same gear and ability lists, etc... and if someone wanted something special or different I could crack out the core books and build it for them.

 

That is something I firmly believe would draw more fans into the game, generate more sales and end the endless arguments like this.

 

Steve comes up with great settings (I feel) I'd love to see him make one using the Hero System rules as a fully self-contained game. One book, pick up and buy. Specific rules and setting all together. Maybe his Stormlords idea? Just fully flushed out and expanded.

 

"Slavery is freedom" hard words, but fitting in this setting. Many players (and GMs) are scared of too many choices. It is too big. Too open. They freeze up. The best way to end it is by limiting their options. giving them specific powers, rules, etc... less is more in this case.

 

Keep the core rules for the ambitious and certainly direct the players and GM's to them, but first give them a game they can play "right out of the box".

 

I know a lot of people who feel this way, but I have to wonder how many would actually use the settings? Going back to highschool, I have never played in any game that used the systems setting as is. I have never played a D&D world that was not home made. I have never played a "Champions" game or "Greyhawk" game or a "Star Frontiers" game. I have played a lot of different systems with a lot of different people but never played the given setting they had. Is this uncommon?

[Ragnarok]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I know a lot of people who feel this way' date=' but I have to wonder how many would actually use the settings? Going back to highschool, I have never played in any game that used the systems setting as is. I have never played a D&D world that was not home made. I have never played a "Champions" game or "Greyhawk" game or a "Star Frontiers" game. I have played a lot of different systems with a lot of different people but never played the given setting they had. Is this uncommon?[/quote']

 

I think only once did I play a D&D game via the canon setting, and that was Eberron. In my experience, GMs have basically taken the rules and the stats from the book and made their own plotlines.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

What's the difference between someone that exclusively plays systems that come with a setting (that may even be integrated in) and say nothing' date=' and someone that exclusively plays systems that come with a setting and complain about a system does not?[/quote']

 

Also entirely beside the point.

[mallet]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Sure, most GM's adjust the setting to fit their own style, ideas, etc... BUT the rules/setting still give them and their players a base guideline and tone. I'm sure in all those previous games you still used the D&D classes (fighter, mages, etc...) and the base setting weapons, money system, etc... the monsters were still used, the level system and XP system were used, etc... Because the D&D rules were made for that setting that you wanted to play. It gave you a solid, specific, foundation to base your game on. Sure, in the GM's version of the setting Trolls might be good, and the King might be dead, and all Mage's are on the run, but you all had the same base setting and rules to work from to get to that point.

 

You can't do that right "out of the box" with the hero system core rule books. It still takes tons of work to get the Hero System to that balanced "starting point" and that is where I have always found you lose the most players/GM's. Give players/gm a built system/setting and then let them adjust the fluff as they see fit and then (and this is the big thing that Hero Does well and would be a big selling point) they can adjust the crunch as well once they get familiar with everything.

 

It's almost a "bait and switch" approach. draw them in with the complete rules/setting for a game then up-sell them further down the road into getting the core books so they can adjust their can adjust their campaign as they feel necessary.

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Also entirely beside the point.

 

Just trying to see what you mean by "spoon-fed". Not everyone uses the term in the same way.

[Matt Holck]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I am not a fan of the super limitation advantage powers used to model other powers

like Combat Luck

[mojo_bones]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Sure, most GM's adjust the setting to fit their own style, ideas, etc... BUT the rules/setting still give them and their players a base guideline and tone. I'm sure in all those previous games you still used the D&D classes (fighter, mages, etc...) and the base setting weapons, money system, etc... the monsters were still used, the level system and XP system were used, etc... Because the D&D rules were made for that setting that you wanted to play. It gave you a solid, specific, foundation to base your game on. Sure, in the GM's version of the setting Trolls might be good, and the King might be dead, and all Mage's are on the run, but you all had the same base setting and rules to work from to get to that point.

 

You can't do that right "out of the box" with the hero system core rule books. It still takes tons of work to get the Hero System to that balanced "starting point" and that is where I have always found you lose the most players/GM's. Give players/gm a built system/setting and then let them adjust the fluff as they see fit and then (and this is the big thing that Hero Does well and would be a big selling point) they can adjust the crunch as well once they get familiar with everything.

 

It's almost a "bait and switch" approach. draw them in with the complete rules/setting for a game then up-sell them further down the road into getting the core books so they can adjust their can adjust their campaign as they feel necessary.

 

Sorry, but what you are trying to get at was done in the exact same way it can be done with hero. Take creatures out of the appropriate "Monster Manual", modify them a bit if needed, and use them in your setting. That is what every D&D game I was in did. I never knew the any of the D&D setting very well and I never felt I needed to. IMO it helped that I didn't. I did not go in expecting to see certain NPCs in certain places.

Also which version of D&D system? I mean I played AD&D, I played 2nd, I played 3.0 and 3.5 a little so which rules was our baseline? Skills were added, new classes were introduced, along came feats, the class system changed dramatically, anyone remember the AC chart? XP and leveling changed... I could go on and on. Also no group I was in used the same critical hit system or always did encumbrance or did the weapon size rules or sometimes changed initiative rules a bit. ALso which D&D setting were they adjusting to set their style? Was it Greyhawk or Ravenloft or Dark sun, or ... I think you get the idea. D&D is thought to have this static system but in truth it does not. It never did. It is a myth as much as Hero being a "generic system" as if it did not have a default setting in it's past just like D20 did. I see a lot more similarities between D20 and hero than I do differences. They have both evolved pretty much in the same direction.

[jtelson]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Overly complex as a criticism I can understand but I can also understand the counter point that the system is as complex as it needs to be to be what it wants to be: That one really is a matter of opinion but bland - No. The Hero System has a unique flavor, even in the naked rules you can almost taste it - I would describe it as delightfully and just a bit mercilessly action movie like.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Sorry' date=' but what you are trying to get at was done in the exact same way it can be done with hero. Take creatures out of the appropriate "Monster Manual", modify them a bit if needed, and use them in your setting. That is what every D&D game I was in did. I never knew the any of the D&D setting very well and I never felt I needed to. IMO it helped that I didn't. I did not go in expecting to see certain NPCs in certain places. [/quote']

 

But the spell list was the spell list. Those were the specific spells researched and used by Wizards everywhere. Actual spell research in D&D has never been straightforward or easy - you get the spells that, presumably, other wizards in the setting researched before you. Many of them were even named after their creators, forming a portion of the setting's history, even if their exploits were never actually relevant to the game at hand.

 

And every deity granted more or less the same spells, whether real world mythology deities, setting specific deities or home brewed deities, they granted the same clerical spells from the system. Those are the divine spells granted in the D&D setting.

 

Classes, races, feats, weapons, etc. all form an underlying series of setting assumptions. Some DM's would tweak these for their home grown settings, but a complete departure "wasn't really D&D".

 

Now, sometimes D&D would change the ground rules - the Ravenloft setting, the Al-Qadim setting, etc. ad infinitum. But each such setting, or game, explained the rules of this setting/game separately. You had to make changes to "the rules" that applied in the default setting, which, at least to me, highlights the fact that the default rules had a setting underpinning them.

[BeZurKur]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Now' date=' sometimes D&D would change the ground rules - the Ravenloft setting, the Al-Qadim setting, etc. ad infinitum. But each such setting, or game, explained the rules of this setting/game separately. You had to make changes to "the rules" that applied in the default setting, which, at least to me, highlights the fact that the default rules had a setting underpinning them.[/quote']

Yeah, the closest thing to a toolbox D&D ever had was d20 (and d20 Modern with it generic classes at that). I suppose OD&D could count because it is so rules light, but that works because of a lack of rules. However, Hero is THE toolbox of RPG games, and there is no guidance for the person coming into the game. The two core books are not friendly, although to the veteran, they are very useful. Many of us (most?) came in at 4th or prior, when the book was more easily digested. Criticizing someone because they are intimidated by the core books is unfair.

 

I really like Mallets idea of a complete game with all the rules and dials already set. Everyone has already said the gist of Hero is simple. Such a game would let the uninitiated realize it for themselves. Abilities wouldn't even be stated out like Hero Powers; they can just give the required rules, sort of like Talents are listed now. In an appendix, the full write-up is given and direction to the Advanced Toolbox (aka the core books). It would encourage players to lift the hood and mess with things -- if they so choose.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

d20 was not a generic system. It was a system for D&D. Every other d20 genre changed the rules so thoroughly that it's a joke to call them the same system. How you roll to-hit and skills? Yeah, okay. That might have stayed the same between games, but that's about it. Like the name says, the fact that a twenty-sided die is used for action resolution is about all there is to it.

[BeZurKur]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

d20 Modern is pretty generic. Bad Axe games used it for a sword and sorcery game, essentially copying the d20 Modern SRD into their book. WotC also published supplements that took the system into different directions: Past, Cyberscape, Future, Apocalypse, and Dark Matter. All of them use the d20 Modern SRD as the core and bulk of the rules.

[mojo_bones]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

But the spell list was the spell list. Those were the specific spells researched and used by Wizards everywhere. Actual spell research in D&D has never been straightforward or easy - you get the spells that, presumably, other wizards in the setting researched before you. Many of them were even named after their creators, forming a portion of the setting's history, even if their exploits were never actually relevant to the game at hand.

 

And every deity granted more or less the same spells, whether real world mythology deities, setting specific deities or home brewed deities, they granted the same clerical spells from the system. Those are the divine spells granted in the D&D setting.

 

Classes, races, feats, weapons, etc. all form an underlying series of setting assumptions. Some DM's would tweak these for their home grown settings, but a complete departure "wasn't really D&D".

 

Now, sometimes D&D would change the ground rules - the Ravenloft setting, the Al-Qadim setting, etc. ad infinitum. But each such setting, or game, explained the rules of this setting/game separately. You had to make changes to "the rules" that applied in the default setting, which, at least to me, highlights the fact that the default rules had a setting underpinning them.

 

The spells lists have again changed from version to version, just as the powers list in Hero has changed form version to version. I guess I could say "the powers list is the powers list" in response, but that is a bit simplistic. And again, I have never been in a campaign that even mentioned Bigby or any of the other names from spells as being historical figures. Most of the time we dropped the names from the spells for simplicity. Many campaigns I was in had spell and weapon restrictions based on deity. It never caused anyone to say "this isn't D&D". We adopted new classes, dropped others, played with specialized classes, added skills, and still we all thought we were playing D&D. We had players come and go from our game and never had one person come in and ask us what we were really playing.

 

Now I agree completely dropping things like feats would have been a pretty big stretch in later versions of D&D. I also think dropping skills would be a big stretch for playing Hero. Same with dropping classes in D&D or dropping all powers from Hero. These things are part of core rules not setting. There is a difference. and the argument is going pretty far afield from where it started.

 

My point was and is that the setting of D&D is really not as important as many make it out to be. I have played in various settings in D&D and now with D20 the settings/genres are even broader. Hero is really the same thing (for me). When I started playing D&D (that is now part of D20) fantasy was the genre for the game. The setting could change and for each DM I had or even from game to game with the same DM (even to the point of radically changing some classes sometimes) but the genre was always the same. When I started playing Champions (part of Hero now) superhero was the genre. The setting would change for each GM but the genre was always the same.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Meh. Some guy has an opinion. No need for me to get all worked up over it. I thought D&D was inconsistent, self-contradictory and way too complicated with all the supplemental materials that were published along the way*. I doubt this guy would care about my opinion though.

 

 

 

*And despite that opinion, I had a lot of fun with the system pre-d20. Never could summon up the ability to like D&D 3 no matter how hard I tried. Want to try 4th Edition though.