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The Hero System is bland and over complicated


RPMiller

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

LoL this guy does not understand the diffrence between setting and rules hahahahahaha.

Think of it if we actually played the herosystem withouth setting LOL! "My character will attack enemy 42 with a 3d6-1 killing attack, using my killing attack power"

Thats funny!

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The spells lists have again changed from version to version' date=' just as the powers list in Hero has changed form version to version. I guess I could say "the powers list is the powers list" in response, but that is a bit simplistic. [/quote']

 

LoL this guy does not understand the diffrence between setting and rules hahahahahaha.

Think of it if we actually played the herosystem withouth setting LOL! "My character will attack enemy 42 with a 3d6-1 killing attack, using my killing attack power"

Thats funny!

 

Bingo - in D&D, you can have a Magic Missile, and a Fireball. These are spells that exist, and are pretty common, in the setting. You don't see a Flaming Missile for a starting character, or Sphere of Missiles replacing that Fireball as a third level spell, as they are not part of the pre-fab spells that make up the default D&D setting.

 

In Hero, you might see any of the four designed by an enterprising player. The Powers are tools to design those spells. The characters don't discuss that Wizard they battled who cast 3d6 AoE Radius Killing attacks, they talk about the Wizard who cast deadly Fireballs. But no Hero fantasy game presupposes the Fireball itself, or the experience of the Wizard who might be able to cast it. Those things are part of the setting, not the mechanics.

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

We all realize the possibilities of a genre book, such as Champions, that includes the appropriate rules from the main rules books is about as likely as peace in the Middle East. I suggest instead a ‘boxed’ set for various genres. This boxed set would include the Hero System Basic Rulebook and a second book of approximately the same size with information on a specific genre. This would contain a list of suggested powers and such from the Basic book, indicating the page. It could also include pre-made powers to illustrate their use as well as half dozen basic pre-made characters. Part of the book could be dedicated to a generic setting, ‘The City: a Superhero setting’, ‘The Castle: a Fantasy Hero setting, ‘The Spaceport: a Star Hero setting’, ‘The Haunted Mansion: a Horror Hero setting’, etc. that would provide a couple of quick adventures, one or two pages, with a few DPC in very basic form and a single main encounter with a ‘big bad’ to fight. Heck, we have a lot of talented people on these boards that might be able to come up with such a book and it would provide something not as intimidating as two bright blue ‘Tomes of Door Stopping ©’.

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

What HERO really needs is a highly successful MMORPG to channel people's attention toward the pen-and-paper gaming. Or not.

 

The other real breakthrough enabler was novels. D&D was a basement dweller's game before Dragonlance caught the eye of the curious and casual player. A genre mashing series of novels showcasing the roller-coaster possibilities inherent in HERO System, paired with game supplements assisting in duplicating that wild ride at the table, could be just the ticket.

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

One of my main criteria for how interested I am in a game for a long time has been how easy it is to detach the setting from the rules. Since I'm not generally interested in running someone elses setting if the rules and setting are so intertwined that I can't use the rules in my own setting I'm not particularly interested in them.

 

Which I suppose is a bit odd, since EPT was the first RPG I ever played...

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Well, 5th and 6th ed. aren't dramatically more complicated than 4th, and 4th was clearly playable. Is 800 pages of rules a bit intimidating for a non-veteran gamer? Probably, but I guess there is the basic rules clocking in at about 200 pages. As for "bland", well, all generic universal rule sets tend to be a bit on the bland side, but I'd say Kazei 5 and the Day After Ragnarok, as well as Gestalt, all tend to effectively counter the characterization as bland. That said, sometimes the specific "official" settings tend to be a bit on the "this ground has been trod upon before, and often" side. I think that's probably unavoidable, though, because the intent is to create a workable setting that "feels like" a typical fantasy or sci fi setting. While the more specific settings(like Tuala Morn, Atlantean Age, etc.) tend to stand out more precisely because they haven't been done before(or as much).

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Just curious here: what is an example of a system with a setting that is spoon-fed to the reader?

 

Vampire the Masquerade is a game with a spoon fed setting. They start you off with fluff, and make sure to add in little tidbits about how "yes, you can use the disciplines to break the setting in half but no one ever does that because you're stupid."

 

Try adapting VtM to anything that isn't "dark superheroes with blood batteries" (it does that genre ok though, if you hate game balance)

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Vampire the Masquerade is a game with a spoon fed setting. They start you off with fluff, and make sure to add in little tidbits about how "yes, you can use the disciplines to break the setting in half but no one ever does that because you're stupid."

 

Try adapting VtM to anything that isn't "dark superheroes with blood batteries" (it does that genre ok though, if you hate game balance)

 

Like, Werewolves, Mages, Mummies, Vampire Hunters, Changelings, Revenants maybe?

World of Darkness is an OK generic system when you leave out the blood points, or replace them with something else like they did in their other major lines.

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Like, Werewolves, Mages, Mummies, Vampire Hunters, Changelings, Revenants maybe?

World of Darkness is an OK generic system when you leave out the blood points, or replace them with something else like they did in their other major lines.

 

True. While the WoD systems had their definite "classes", if we can call them that, there was a pretty consistent system behind all of them. I even adapted the rules to a fantasy setting at one point, with some options for combat specialization and such. It worked well, and was definitely fun.

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Like, Werewolves, Mages, Mummies, Vampire Hunters, Changelings, Revenants maybe?

World of Darkness is an OK generic system when you leave out the blood points, or replace them with something else like they did in their other major lines.

 

Hero is not a very bloody system as characters are usually knocked out before taking many wounds

I like a little blood in my games but must characters don't have the body to give it

atleast not without dire consequenies.

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

One of my main criteria for how interested I am in a game for a long time has been how easy it is to detach the setting from the rules. Since I'm not generally interested in running someone elses setting if the rules and setting are so intertwined that I can't use the rules in my own setting I'm not particularly interested in them.

 

That's probably very common at these forums, but it is considerably less so elsewhere. Looking at the average age around here, we're mostly in our 30s and 40s -- with the occasional exception. When we got into gaming, it was mostly about creating your own stuff. The focus has shifted from the GM designing the world and the players exploring it to everyone sharing the world and living it. That's not a judgement; it is just an observation. HERO is a toolbox. It needs to show how to use it if it is interested in attracting new fans.

 

So then more like Lucha Libra Hero? :)

Lucha Libra Hero is a complete game?

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

This is the type of argument that has been going on for years and I would for it to be solved one day soon.

 

I would, really, really, really love for Hero to release and official game/setting for each of it's major genres. Champions, Fantasy Hero & Star Hero.

 

And I am not talking simply about the Terakian Age or Terran Empire (although I do like both of those settings) but a full on game. That has specific starting points, DC levels, Spell Lists, equipment lists, everything like that, PLUS take out the rules stuff that should not be in the game. The Hero System is a tool kit. But we only ever see the final product of using those tools from a fan made source. I'd love to see an official setting. A self contained book. That includes all the rules needed to play that specific game. Then if ambitious GM's would like to expand on the game in their own way they can use the tool kit to do so, since all of the rules will work together.

 

For example, if the official Star Hero game/setting had cyberware but no bioware and didn't use hit locations, but a GM wanted to add both, he could buy the tool kit (main rules) and figure out how to add them to his game... But he wouldn't need to. If he liked the game/setting as is he could leave it alone.

 

A couple of products like this would do wonders to end these types of arguments and the narrow mindedness of a lot of other RPG fans out there about the Hero System. Plus it would draw in new players and GM's who don't want to spend the time and effort to build a whole world for themselves and work out all of the balance issues. Then, once they learned the specific rules they needed to play that specific game they would have a basic understanding of the Hero System and could develop and grow from there by buying the core rule books.

 

I know where I live at least it is damn hard to get people to play the hero game. First a lot of them don't want to buy and read the two massive core books just to learn the rules and second it is a lot harder to sell them on a game without some sort of official setting to draw them in. Sure I can tell them about my setting, and the base points, numbers, etc... but unless I write it all up and lay it out in pretty typeface it won't seem "real" to them, and there will be no pictures.

 

It would be so easy though to tell them, "hey want to run a Terran empire game. Buy the book or PDF. learn the rules and setting and make up a character. we will be meeting up on..."

 

Then everyone would be on the same page. They would all know the same info. Select from the same gear and ability lists, etc... and if someone wanted something special or different I could crack out the core books and build it for them.

 

That is something I firmly believe would draw more fans into the game, generate more sales and end the endless arguments like this.

 

Steve comes up with great settings (I feel) I'd love to see him make one using the Hero System rules as a fully self-contained game. One book, pick up and buy. Specific rules and setting all together. Maybe his Stormlords idea? Just fully flushed out and expanded.

 

"Slavery is freedom" hard words, but fitting in this setting. Many players (and GMs) are scared of too many choices. It is too big. Too open. They freeze up. The best way to end it is by limiting their options. giving them specific powers, rules, etc... less is more in this case.

 

Keep the core rules for the ambitious and certainly direct the players and GM's to them, but first give them a game they can play "right out of the box".

 

That is basically what we had with 3rd edition, Champions (supers), Espionage (spies / action, later absorbed into DI), Fantasy Hero (fantasy), Justice Incorperated (pulp), Danger International (Modern action), and Robot Warriors (giant robots).

 

Still fairly light on setting, but the options were tailored to the genre.

 

I think it is hard for many of us who started out with 128 and 256 page Hero games to recognize the intimidation factor faced by someone coming to HERO at the 5th and 6th Ed, we evolved with the game. Someone picking it up today is coming in cold to what 800+ pages of options?

 

I see the same issue with GURPS 4th ed, and even somewhat with the new Basic Roleplaying, there are a ton of options available which can be difficult to sort out if you don't have a solid understanding of the basics.

 

Yes there are books like Sidekick out there, but think about it, how many gamers actually buy the "beginners" book, it is something of an ego crusher. A complete Fantasy HERO (which essentially is just Sidekick + a condensed FH book and one setting) on the other hand doesn't say "for babies" on it. It's largely mental but could be very useful to bring in the OMG that book is huge fence sitters, plus there are many who just don't like generic games, so again it allows them to feel superior because HERO has come around to their way of thinking.

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I see the same issue with GURPS 4th ed' date=' and even somewhat with the new Basic Roleplaying, there are a ton of options available which can be difficult to sort out if you don't have a solid understanding of the basics.[/quote']

 

Yep. In my review of the system, I say that you should approach with with a setting in mind, so you have an easier time sorting out what's needed.

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

So, anyways, I think it is time to suggest the (newly revised for sixth edtion) idea of mine for Genre Basics

 

With each genre book release a new book should also come out called (genre) Basic. So Fantacy Basics, or Star Hero Basic, etc...

 

Each "Basic book" would be about 100 pages. In each "Basic Book" you would get

 

An overview of the genre, nothing to indepth, but a bit on the major sub genre's and tropes

 

A setting (Describing the main Hero games setting, again abreviated to about 8 pages or so)

 

The lion share of the book would be a sub setting, such as a city or country in the main setting

 

A small Powers section (Spells, equipment, etc...)

 

A small Beastiary (supervillains, monsters, etc...)

 

A Team (5-6 ready to play characters)

 

These would be marketed to go with the basic rulebook (Maybe sell them wraped together even), with any rules not in Basic being included in sidebars for the new book (So if you needed an advantage for a spell not in the basic rulebook you would describe it in the sidebar)

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I wonder if something even more basic than Basic would appeal to some beginning players? Take everything everywhere that says, "optionally, you might..." and strip it out completely. Provide the "standard, normal, non-optional rules" for adventuring and combat, rip out most of the environmental effects and such, leaving a small paragraph--a sentence or two--for common conditions, do the same for each Skill, and call it good. Even remove the Powers, Power Modifiers, and Frameworks sections completely, but replace them with some pre-built equipment like the weapons lists in 6E2/C&A and some standard equipment for each genre from other books. Add in an appendix that discusses the kind of rules and options provided by other books, and viola!

 

EDIT: We can call it, "Limited Choice Hero." LOL. ;)

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The biggest complaint I hear from newbies is that they don't know how/don't want to make powers and items, et el. I think what would benefit most people would be pre-constructed "everything" for a setting. I see it with the Hero Designer character packs and prefabs discussions as well. People want someone else to do all the tool-kitting and just give them the final product.

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I don't think more basic is the way to go. Today's gamer is neither stupid nor lazy. He was just introduced to the hobby via different games. Imagine a kick-ass setting like Hite's Ragnarok as a complete game powered by Hero. The game is simple: we all know that. New players can spend their energies getting into setting versus constructing elements for it. However, always in between the lines, and sometimes outright is the promise that the players can be empowered to contribute and shape as much as they like with the same tools as the designer. It's like the PC video game market. There are gamers who simply play the game as is, but if the game is good, a mod community develops. Some will only play the mods, but others -- once turned on -- will want to get under the hood as well. Something like that will go a long way in breaking the stigma that Hero has that it is unnecessarily complicated.

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Lucha Libra Hero is a complete game?

 

To expand on Darren's highly accurate (and possibly overly verbose) "yup" ..

 

Lucha Libre contains genre conventions, setting information, NPCs to use, and a modified-adjusted set of Rules to use specifically with a Lucha Libre game (not a whole ton of modification is actually required, but things are worded less generically and more Lucha Libre-y). Both Lucha Libre and PS238 are books you can pick up, use to create a character, and start playing right then. All you need after that is a GM with an Adventure idea - the book provides some to use.

 

So Hero Games has already done what you've asked. Twice. Time will tell if they decide to do anymore like this in the future.

 

The only problem I see is that the more space in a book dedicated to Rules, the less space dedicated to a really cool setting. And Hero writes some seriously cool settings.

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Yep! Pretty much. LOL. How many points did you put into Deduction? ;)

 

An 8- level would be able to take care fo this one. Anyone who has read many rpg.net threads gets a heavy situational bonus for recognizing a similar theme ...:)

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Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Hero is not a very bloody system as characters are usually knocked out before taking many wounds

I like a little blood in my games but must characters don't have the body to give it

atleast not without dire consequenies.

I've run games where the heroes got bloody and were lucky to still be standing when the battle was over. The players loved it.
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