ghost-angel Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? So' date=' yeah...my initial question about man/machine: valid at all?[/quote'] If by "Machine" you meant "Society At Large" ... kind of. I never saw it as fighting anything, fighting implies an ability to win. There is nothing to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? The retrotech is kind of a funny thing when you watch the 80s sci fi flicks. I liked seeing the fax machines in Back to the Future II, but the best was Johnny Mnemonic. Towards the end of the movie the rebels send out the instructions on curing the disease. How do they say to prepare? "Get your VCRs ready!". Gee, okay, I'll go dig the old VCR out of the shed and see if my TV still has the right kind of jacks. It makes me smile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burrito Boy Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? There's no question in my mind that the corporations are slowly taking over. Just look at our sports stadiums: Comerica Park, Minute Maid Park, Petco Park. It may seem innocuous but that's just the way they want it to look. Then one day you're living in New Disney instead of New Mexico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted May 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? If by "Machine" you meant "Society At Large" ... kind of. I never saw it as fighting anything' date=' fighting implies an ability to win. There is nothing to win.[/quote'] No. I literally meant machine: either an AI, or an uploaded human mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? No. Machines (AI, Constructs, Computers) are interesting, but extraneous to the core of Cyberpunk. A good vessel, useful props, but not the core of the genre by any stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted May 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? Extraneous? They've been in from the beginning! When I think of cyberpunk, the "cyber" element always comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? But it's not ABOUT them. Mysteries aren't about the murder - they're about solving the murder. Cyberpunk isn't about the tech, it's about society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted May 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? Cyberpunk isn't about the tech' date=' it's about society.[/quote'] Seems to be an intertwining of the two, even if the former plays a minimal role in specific stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? Indeed - you need the murder for the murder mystery, you need the tech for Cyberpunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? But it's not ABOUT them. Mysteries aren't about the murder - they're about solving the murder. Cyberpunk isn't about the tech, it's about society. Well, it might be about how the tech is affecting society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burrito Boy Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? Well' date=' it might be about how the tech is affecting society.[/quote'] Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? So' date=' yeah...my initial question about man/machine: valid at all?[/quote'] Oh that. Never figured what the heck you even meant by your question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted May 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? Previously: Man (human corporation/authority figure) behind (controlling) the machine (technology, but computers and robots...if you want to get specific). Currently: Machine (computers and robots, though technology in general works. The tech in question is often overwhelming and very embedded in our lives...perhaps too much) behind (the real master of) the man (human corporation/authority figure). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? First, I don't think the second premise is true. I don't think anything is "in control" at all. Which is what makes it so frightening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? I always feel that way about "post-modern." Either "post modern" means "still in the future" or it's a meaningless concatenation of syllables. Lucius Alexander If I compose the palindromedary tagline after the rest of the message, is it post-post? I detect a definitional problem of incommensurability in the word, "modern." OT: One of my pet peeves is the word, "organic." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted May 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? OT: One of my pet peeves is the word' date=' "organic."[/quote'] "It's organic. It must be good for you!" You can also substitute "natural" for "organic". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? I always feel that way about "post-modern." Either "post modern" means "still in the future" or it's a meaningless concatenation of syllables. Post-modernism is related to modernism. It's not related to time, but to an aesthetic and philosophical movement. See also "postmodernity". All of this stuff is, of course, total claptrap, but postmodernism was the intellectual fad of choice for much of the 1990s, and there are still "pomos" out there. No doubt one will pipe up and protest about being called an idiot. Philosophically, postmodernism is a species of idealism, since it privileges "discourse" (= chatter) over objective reality. On a political level, its roots are in liberalism, and many of its adherents regard(ed) themselves as liberals, or even radicals, but it is actually profoundly conservative, being an ideal cover for passive windbaggery. (Hence it was so admirably suited to academia...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? Post-modernism is related to modernism. It's not related to time, but to an aesthetic and philosophical movement. See also "postmodernity". All of this stuff is, of course, total claptrap, but postmodernism was the intellectual fad of choice for much of the 1990s, and there are still "pomos" out there. No doubt one will pipe up and protest about being called an idiot. Philosophically, postmodernism is a species of idealism, since it privileges "discourse" (= chatter) over objective reality. On a political level, its roots are in liberalism, and many of its adherents regard(ed) themselves as liberals, or even radicals, but it is actually profoundly conservative, being an ideal cover for passive windbaggery. (Hence it was so admirably suited to academia...) Post-Modernism has been around since the 1870s, it was used in relation to Post-Humanism around 1917 or so, as a counter to what happens after Nietzsche's analysis of the end of modernism in nihilistic hedonism. It's been around for over a century as philosophical clap-trap and windbaggery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? "It's organic. It must be good for you!" You can also substitute "natural" for "organic". Yes. Deadly nighshade is natural and can be organic, doesn't make it any less poisonous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted May 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? Yes. Deadly nighshade is natural and can be organic' date=' doesn't make it any less poisonous.[/quote'] Or rattlesnake venom. Or hurricanes. Or mosquitoes. Or... On the other hand, it's not like synthetic medicine, The Internet, reliable electrical sources and the like are natural...they MUST be bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? Essentially, I still think cyberpunk as a literary genre is a thing of yesterday, with it's dominant gimmicks having been usurped by technothrillers, transhumanist science fiction, and urban fantasy. It still exists as an RPG thing, but so does GURPS Solar Patrol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? I completely disagree. There's Plenty of cyberpunk to be had. Edit: as an adendum- both Urban Fantasy & Transhumanism predate Cyberpunk. If anything, CP is just another expression of Transhuman ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? I completely disagree. There's Plenty of cyberpunk to be had. Such as? Edit: as an adendum- both Urban Fantasy & Transhumanism predate Cyberpunk. If anything, CP is just another expression of Transhuman ideas. No, urban fantasy arose as a distinct subgenre in the late eighties. The War For The Oaks was in 1987. Cyberpunk (the story) gave Cyberpunk it's name in 1980. Queen of Angels was written in 1990. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? Cyberpunk wasn't recognized until 1984s Neuromamcer. I'll give you Urban Fantasy as 80s as Charles De Lint started publishing then (also 1984), as I always included works such as Susan Coopers Dark Is Rising cycle in UF, but looking it up tjat seems to be "Contemporary Fantasy" which I'm finding a hard time distinguishing from "Urban Fantasy" .. Mah. Transhumamism has existed at least since the 1960s Some recent CP: Moxyland - Lauren Beukes Zero History - William Gibson River Of Gods - Ian McDonald Accelerando - Charles Stross The Mirrored Heavens - David J Williams (haven't read this one yet) Street: Empathy - Ryan A Span Altered Carbon - Richard K Morgan That's just the last 5 yrs or so, not fully comprehensive. There isn't LOTS but it's not dead either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change? Cyberpunk wasn't recognized until 1984s Neuromamcer. I'll give you Urban Fantasy as 80s as Charles De Lint started publishing then (also 1984), as I always included works such as Susan Coopers Dark Is Rising cycle in UF, but looking it up tjat seems to be "Contemporary Fantasy" which I'm finding a hard time distinguishing from "Urban Fantasy" .. Mah. Transhumamism has existed at least since the 1960s Some recent CP: Moxyland - Lauren Beukes Zero History - William Gibson River Of Gods - Ian McDonald Accelerando - Charles Stross The Mirrored Heavens - David J Williams (haven't read this one yet) Street: Empathy - Ryan A Span Altered Carbon - Richard K Morgan That's just the last 5 yrs or so, not fully comprehensive. There isn't LOTS but it's not dead either. This Is Not A Game by Walter Jon Williams Also, I need to re-read by Dark Is Rising Collection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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