Religion in Science-Fiction?

[Ragitsu]

How does religion survive science-fiction?

[L. Marcus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

... Any specific setting in mind, or just general discussion?

 

As for general, I think some people will always feel a certain spiritual need. Whether this will, in some future scenarios, involve organized religions as we know them ...

[Christopher]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I like the way they solved that in the Webcomic "Wayward Sons: Legends":

http://waywardsons.keenspot.com/d/20101218.html

Their beliefe is based on the Polydimensional Theory (the entire comic use most themes from earth Mythology)

 

In Mass Effect 1, there at least three religions mentioned:

The character Ahsley Wiliam believes in one of the Monotheistic Earth Reiligions

The Hanar beliefe in an "Alien Intervention" variant, that they where "uplifted".

The Asari have some monoteistic religion, considering that they are only female it seems natural that this is a "Goddess" (that how she is called, no special name).

[Sundog]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I tend to use Frank Herbert's Dune as a guide - that religion will mutate, change and survive as changes to the world around it shape and alter it, possibly including direct and deliberate manipulation by factions.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

How does religion survive science-fiction?

Your base assumption, that science is hostile to religion, is incorrect.

 

Here's one for you: They recently found the city that Samson was recorded, in the Bible, as last living in. It contains a temple that was held up by two pillars.

 

Now, at this point, you could say "the writers, being contemporary, would know that". I could say "the writers, having been accurate in one detail, provide evidence in being accurate in more than one". And we could go back and forth and never get anywhere, because we're both working from different base assumptions we're not going to give up on the word of some Arbitrary Internet Person.

 

But, I've danced this dance before and it may be best to leave it at - I believe in God; have plenty of personal evidence to support that belief; and invite you to further investigate for yourself. Beyond that, things (IME) rapidly devolve from a debate into an argument and never get anywhere.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I submit that, even if some sort of "superior beings" existed(e.g., the Q continuum), it's human nature that there would be those who were skeptical as to the absolute omnipotence/omniscience of such beings("Sure, they're arguably godlike beings, but that doesn't mean they are God(s)"). And if there were more than one of them, you might see different groups claiming the relative supremacy of one over all others, or even some groups regarding them as a pantheon of sorts.

I think the biggest challenge to contemporary-style religion in a sci-fi setting would simply be the existence of other sapient species in the universe, since that would throw the current thinking of most religions for a major loop.

[Hermit]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

How does religion survive science-fiction?

 

Actually, a lot of Science Fiction I've enjoyed touched on religion....

Take ST: Deep Space 9... while some of the other Star Trek franchises seem to be of the mindset that religion is for 'primitive' species, DS 9 gave us a planet with the prophets/Worm Hole aliens who saw time in a non linear fashion and had amazing abilities that might be seen as god like, and really, who's to say they weren't gods given that all that is presented of them? For some characters, faith in those beings was a strength (I give you Major Kira!) but for others, Ki Wynn, it was merely a prop to feed power and ambition. Kind of like religion in the real world in that regard IMO. Babylon 5 certainly recognized that religon wasn't going to suddenly cease being a factor either. If not for the belief in souls, Earth would have been wiped out before the show began.

 

Independence Day had plot holes you could drive a mack truck through, but between the fun explosions and one liners you could see that times of alien invasion often had people refinding their comfort in their belief systems.

 

Avatar really DID have a 'goddess' of sorts, and a plausible (For movie fare) rationale for why and how etc.

 

Sure, a GM can abandon religion entirely from his setting or campaign, but if he does, IMO, he's throwing away some fascinating material to work with. In 3rd World, I have a terrorist motivated by his belief that God made Earth for humans. The F'Trana of that setting finding religion distasteful and barbaric to the point of outlawing it in some of the dominions they rule. It asks the question, Would you stick by your god if it meant being 'cured' of your 'insanity' whether you liked it or not? If handled with care, religion can provide great bad guys, great good guys, conflict or common ground, and , of course, flavor to any setting.

 

I'm currently reading Lux Aeternium by Ryan Wolfe. While I initially got it for the swashbucker/space pirate options (I have a player in my group who is not crazy about Sci Fi but loves pirates) , I was pleased to notice that religion hadn't been ignored in it either. Two sets of humans, the founders and the newcomers get along less than some of the truly alien races do. The founders tend to be devout to their faith, and indeed, the Theocracy is a very powerful authority. The Newcomers are pretty much non-believers with different values and this one of the sticking points between them. The setting wouldn't be as rich if no mention were made at all of such imo.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Science can neither prove nor disprove 'God' - those who believe will not be swayed by any evidence, and no evidence will sway those who don't, for the most part.

 

Religion as we know it has survived the discovery that the Earth is not the center of the universe, that it is not flat, that thunder and lightning are naturally occurring phenomenon, the discovery of DNA, evidence of Evolution, the big bang, etc. Those who believe or want to believe will simply adapt their beliefs to fit the new discovery (after much wailing and gnashing of teeth and sneaky attempts to rewrite our text books.)

[Midas]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I've been considering this for the last few months.

 

See, John Campbell had three rules:

1) No technobabble - If you need your space ship to get to Alpha Centauri in two days, *bam* you're there in two days. Lose the pages of "How hyperdrive works."

 

2) No sex

(That one got blown away in the sixties)

 

3) No religion.

 

IMO, three wasn't a bad thing, because religion wasn't relevant to most stories:

 

Here's a standard scenario:

The on-the-ropes Federation of Progressive Planets is making a last ditch, daring attack to cripple the all conquering Dark Empire Fleet.

Two Space Marines are suiting up.

SM1: "So, do you think the Day of Rest is a Friday, a Saturday, or a Sunday?

SM2: "Heh, hadn't really thought about it."

The ship shudders suddenly, from incoming fire.

SM2: "What I wonder is whether the archetect of the universe can split himself into three parts or if he's stuck as a single entity."

Claxons sound.

"ATTENTION ALL HANDS! STAND BY TO REPEL BOARDERS!"

SM1: "Hmn. That's a good question. What I really wonder about is whether circumcision is mandatory..."

 

Ad Absurdum.

 

See? it's irrelevant and distracting.

 

Star Wars, and more the original BSG (Mormons in SPAAAACE!), made the question relevant to the story. "As worshipers of the Lords of Kobol, what do They expect of us?"

 

The question of religion has practical aplications in SF stories/games - especially ones with time travel.

 

Chronoarcheology should be a viable topic. Most religions have special events in their scriptures. Christianity is the most vulnerable: Either the Great Organizer and Director took time off to wander around Roman era Judea for three decades, or He didn't. Very wisely, everyone from Campbell forward has avoided that problem, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, just that answering the question is a story breaker, either way.

 

Bit of a thread jack here, but how would world buiders handle such inquiries. The simplest, and cheesiest, way is to say that "Nobody knows why, but time travel to the classical era of Earth doesn't work. And no, neither does travelling to the same year on Alpha Centauri then FTL to Earth."

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

What Kraven Kor said. There will always be believers and always be skeptics. The believers will adapt their views to fit with the universe as they understand it, so religion in some form will never die. Since many religious explanations of science conclude with "Because God wanted it that way" there is no evidence to argue one way or the other, so it boils down to whatever the individual believes.

 

Where science and religion become antagonistic is that transition period between a scientific discovery and the believers adapting their dogma to it. For Galileo that was a heliocentric solar system. Today in America it is evolution. In a SF setting, there will doubtless be some religious folk protesting some form of science (or alien species), but there will be plenty who are comfortable accepting both religion and science without them being mutually exclusive.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

The same way it survives science in the contemporary real world; faith. People can argue over what's explicable and provable all they want -- for those who have faith it's a non-issue. Or, as it's expressed in my signature below:

[Ragitsu]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Your base assumption' date=' that science is hostile to religion, is incorrect.[/quote']

 

Speaking of incorrect assumptions...

 

Edit: I suppose what I think could broadly be interpreted as "hostile", but it's more a case of some settings having such advanced technology that existence of deific intervention becomes nigh impossible, rather than an outright competition/feud. I'll spare you the Arthur C. Clarke line...

[Enforcer84]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Same way we do. Badly and probably violently. But with holograms.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Same way we do. Badly and probably violently. But with holograms.

 

And pretty lasers too.

[Christopher]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I submit that' date=' even if some sort of "superior beings" existed(e.g., the Q continuum), it's human nature that there would be those who were skeptical as to the absolute omnipotence/omniscience of such beings("Sure, they're arguably [i']godlike[/i] beings, but that doesn't mean they are God(s)"). And if there were more than one of them, you might see different groups claiming the relative supremacy of one over all others, or even some groups regarding them as a pantheon of sorts.

When Stargate is any indicator, such self proclaimed gods tend to be good enemies.

 

I think the biggest challenge to contemporary-style religion in a sci-fi setting would simply be the existence of other sapient species in the universe' date=' since that would throw the current thinking of most religions for a major loop.[/quote']

There was one film in wich they recieved a message from outer space and build a big...something, beacuse they were sent the plans for it in the message.

There were some protesters aginst it, because "the bible says nothing about aliens" (I think it was: "God created the human in his likeness, not Marian/Intelligent Apes/[some other stupid example]"). One of them later blew the first one model they build (they had a reserve system).

 

I tend to use Frank Herbert's Dune as a guide - that religion will mutate' date=' change and survive as changes to the world around it shape and alter it, possibly including direct and deliberate manipulation by factions.[/quote']

Religion has often been a tool for the Governments. Most monarchic systems tend to rule "by decree of the gods". "Rewards in the Afterlife" is used to keep the masses in line.

The same way Religion can use Governments or even become the Government.

 

 

More perspectives:

In the newer Battlestar Galactica Series, there was also a Religious Conflict between the Humans (Politheists) and Zylons (Monotheists).

 

Nova:

This RPG has a plentoria of human and non human empires. Regarding to Religion:

One human state that uses the Classical Three Estate System (Nobility, Clerigy, Commoners - in that order). Accordingly Religions plays a important role and every spaceship needs at least a shrine.

 

One human state is Arabic. Luckily the "life and let life" variant, not the "kill all unbelievers".

 

One insectoid species where the rare queens are godesses. Mind you, those gal's do directed Evolution, biotech-cybernetic, black hole energy creation and currently they are testing out time travel.

And they are deeply religious, despite them knowing exactly how every part of their life works - including their mothers/gods.

 

Some humans made a Religion of "not using machines". While they have no connection with them, they are stereotypically Amish. And no, they were not born on earth. (they formed from one forgotten colony ship that crashed because of machine failure).

 

One ancient, religious hunter culture. What mades the thing more solid is the high amount of espers among them.

Uplifting to Space Age caused soem chaos/problems, but overall they coped well with it. Except for the 80% that exiled themself and formed a new, atheist state...

 

And that, are just the normal ones...

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Speaking of incorrect assumptions...

 

Ask an unclear question, get confused answers.

 

 

Edit: I suppose what I think could broadly be interpreted as "hostile", but it's more a case of some settings having such advanced technology that existence of deific intervention becomes nigh impossible,.

 

Very few. Among many of those few, they do in fact go ahead and become gods in some sense.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Ask an unclear question' date=' get confused answers.[/quote']

 

It's pretty clear, but it's also way too broad.

 

 

Very few. Among many of those few' date=' they do in fact go ahead and become gods in some sense.[/quote']

 

In a sense, but as more people gain access to the same technology, that "god" status starts to wane pretty fast.

[Markdoc]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Your base assumption, that science is hostile to religion, is incorrect.

 

Here's one for you: They recently found the city that Samson was recorded, in the Bible, as last living in. It contains a temple that was held up by two pillars.

 

Not to nit-pick, but you've apparently confused Tel es-Safi, which is tentatively associated with Gath - the home town of Goliath - with Gaza, where Samson's story is supposed to have ended. No philistine temples have been found in Gaza, although for obvious reasons, there's not a lot of archeology going on there. There is a philistine temple at Tel es-Safi, which like some (but not all) of the other philistine temples found, does have two roof-supporting columns ... though it is unlikely that you could kill people by pushing them (even if you were really strong), because even if you knocked them out of place, all you'd do is bring down a light roof of lath and plaster, causing some nasty bruises and cuts: the two columns were not very big and like the ones at Tel Qasile were apparently made of wood. In addition, since the temple at Tel es-Safi is only a bit bigger than a typical living room, to get 3000 philistines in there, you'd need chainsaws and blenders so we can pretty safely rule it out as the site of Samson's last STR roll. It's in the wrong place, is too small and was destroyed by an earthquake - not a good match for the biblical story!

 

You do make the point though, that, religion is likely to survive in the future, simply because so many people want it to. And in plenty of scifi stories, it's provided compelling extra material, so why not?

 

cheers, Mark

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

IMHO one of the more interesting elements of Hero Games's own Terran Empire campaign setting, is that religion is a significant cultural element, not just among humans, but alien races as well. The largest single denomination among humanity is called The Galactic Church Of The Creator, derived from the three major Abrahamic religions with additions from later Church philosophers. "Church doctrine claims God chose the Human species to bring His message to all other intelligent life, that all beings who accept the Church's covenant become equal before God, and that at the final collapse of the Universe God will jusdge the actions of all beings who ever lived and allow the virtuous to live again in a new cosmos." (TE p. 99)

 

Another significant religious/philosophical movement, Teleology, "holds that intelligent beings have a destiny to spread life through the Universe and evolve to a state at which they become, in effect, gods. Some adherents of Teleology believe time-traveling gods from the future designed the Universe, so the teleological purpose becomes predestined." (Ibid)

 

The most disturbing "religious" movement in the setting is the Church Of The Infinite Dark, which worships/serves terrible alien horrors known as the Kings Of Edom (equivalent to H.P. Lovecraft's "Great Old Ones"), which are believed to exist in the void of space or in hyperspatial domains. The Church revolves around several leaders called "Void Messiahs" who serve particular Kings, and who seek to summon/free their god into this cosmos. They do this by traveling the galaxy in gigantic starships called "Darkholds" armed with technological super-weapons (everything from gene-rewriting viral plagues, to planet-sculpting mass drivers, to converters of stars into black holes) in order to reshape the galaxy into patterns which will bring forth the desired King. Billions will die in the process, not to mention the horrors that could be unleashed should the Church succeed in its goal. (The Church is thoroughly detailed in Scourges Of The Galaxy.)

 

The Terran Empire sourcebook describes the faiths of several alien civilizations, as well, but I don't want to lift too much IP.

[Hermit]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

My TE Characters prefer to serve the mighty Willard "Thou shalt not wear Fuschia!"

[McCoy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

There was one film in wich they recieved a message from outer space and build a big...something, beacuse they were sent the plans for it in the message.

There were some protesters aginst it, because "the bible says nothing about aliens" (I think it was: "God created the human in his likeness, not Marian/Intelligent Apes/[some other stupid example]"). One of them later blew the first one model they build (they had a reserve system).

Contact (1997), based on Carl Sagan's novel.

[Starcloud]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

How could it NOT survive? Some people will look at the universe, look at those grand vistas, marvel at what they see, and feel awed by it.

For all that physics can describe what is out there, when it was formed, and how it behaves, it still fundamentally cannot, can never, answer why.

 

And that's where faith and religion comes in.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

How could it NOT survive? Some people will look at the universe' date=' look at those grand vistas, marvel at what they see, and feel awed by it.[/b']

For all that physics can describe what is out there, when it was formed, and how it behaves, it still fundamentally cannot, can never, answer why.

 

Maybe because people don't think about the reasons behind it / aren't educated about it?

 

Seriously: when I enjoy a sunset or sunrise, i'm not thinking about the electromagnetic spectrum, the atmosphere, and how visible light interplays with my visual cortex to create something I consider stimulating...even though that's all that's happening.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

How could it NOT survive? Some people will look at the universe, look at those grand vistas, marvel at what they see, and feel awed by it.

For all that physics can describe what is out there, when it was formed, and how it behaves, it still fundamentally cannot, can never, answer why.

 

And that's where faith and religion comes in.

 

Maybe because people don't think about the reasons behind it / aren't educated about it?

 

Seriously: when I enjoy a sunset or sunrise, i'm not thinking about the electromagnetic spectrum, the atmosphere, and how visible light interplays with my visual cortex to create something I consider stimulating...even though that's all that's happening.

 

And here, I think, we have the crux of the issue of contention. Two completely different, equally valid, and probably irreconcilable, perspectives of the same vista.

 

Are awe, wonder, the desire to know and explore, purely physical phenomena? Or stirrings of the spirit? Everyone will have his own answer based on personal belief, but none are provable or disprovable.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

And here, I think, we have the crux of the issue of contention. Two completely different, equally valid, and probably irreconcilable, perspectives of the same vista.

 

Are awe, wonder, the desire to know and explore, purely physical phenomena? Or stirrings of the spirit? Everyone will have his own answer based on personal belief, but none are provable or disprovable.

 

Why should they be irreconcilable? I've seen lots of beautiful sunsets, but understanding the physical processes which created them didn't diminish their beauty. On the contrary, I could argue knowing more about them enhanced my ability to appreciate their beauty. Ignorance is over-rated.