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How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?


Ragitsu

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

Another factor to consider: if you run toward a group of non-combatants screaming and waving a sword, they will get the **** out of your way. Sharp edges intimidate people on a visceral level that guns don't. Maybe it's that most people have been cut at least a little at some point and KNOW the pain a sword can bring. Maybe it's the thought of having bits cut OFF. Maybe they don't think you'll shoot them but they can believe you'll cut them a little, or hit them by accident as you run past.

 

In any case, not having to shove through a crowd could make a difference at some point.

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

Another factor to consider: if you run toward a group of non-combatants screaming and waving a sword, they will get the **** out of your way. Sharp edges intimidate people on a visceral level that guns don't. Maybe it's that most people have been cut at least a little at some point and KNOW the pain a sword can bring. Maybe it's the thought of having bits cut OFF. Maybe they don't think you'll shoot them but they can believe you'll cut them a little, or hit them by accident as you run past.

 

In any case, not having to shove through a crowd could make a difference at some point.

 

Wasn't there a study done that shows certain people are more likely to scream when they are threatened with a gun, but go silent when they see a knife?

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

So the sword guy unsheaths as they charge? That always struck me as something that would be harder to do than it looks in the comic books.

 

Depends on method of carry, design and length of the blade. We tended to use knives and shorter swords at that particular school, which makes either moving with the weapon drawn or rapid deployment easier.

 

That said, I've seen it done with a katana in various Japanese forms, but have no first hand experience with trying it in a live scenario. I suppose I could try it out using my buddies iaito just to get a feel for it... Wish I would have seen your post a few hours ago. I was just at his house for a bonfire...

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

Drawing a full-length sword is not as easy as it's made to look in the movies. Doing so on the run requires training (although a street sam would probably practice exactly this maneuver). There was, in fact, an entire school of swordsmanship in Japan called iaido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaido). It focused primarily on the drawing of the blade.

 

What makes much more sense in an urban setting, and in consideration that stabbing ballistic armors will penetrate them, and slashing or cutting will probably not, is to carry one or two smaller weapons with good striking points. Sai, kukri, kris, stiletto, something like that. Easier to conceal, useful in tight places, lighter (when encumbrance is significant), and more versatile in general. Even one or two straight combat knives can make someone very dangerous. When you add in the fact that street sams are usually significantly faster and stronger than baseline, these weapon combos can take a group of gun-armed agents out of the equation very quickly just by forcing them to defend against melee attacks.

 

As to the realism of the whole concept, that is, of course, debatable. Robert DeNiro's Ronin might be the closest example of a modern-day examination of the concept, or Ghost Dog with Forrest Whitaker. I think they fall somewhere between hit man, mercenary and rogue, overall. The 'street' part, though, means that they're independent contractors, rather than part of a corporate army or official security services. The word 'deniability' comes up a lot with these guys. I'm sure that there are at least a few people IRL that consider themselves to be this, or the equivalent.

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

There was' date=' in fact, an entire school of swordsmanship in Japan called iaido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaido). It focused primarily on the drawing of the blade.[/quote']

 

Still is :)

 

The buddy I mentioned above practices it, though he's still considered a beginner. Almost all the stuff he's done is draw and cut from a seated or standing position. I'm not sure if he's even done any of the two man forms yet...

 

What makes much more sense in an urban setting, and in consideration that stabbing ballistic armors will penetrate them, and slashing or cutting will probably not, is to carry one or two smaller weapons with good striking points.

 

This is generally my recommendation as well, but I'm getting the vibe that Ragitsu is trying to find justification for the concept more so than rework the concept.

 

Sai, kukri, kris, stiletto, something like that.

 

Sai actually lack a point or edge, though you could grind one down to get that comic book/Hollywood effect.

 

Khukri more of a chopping/slashing weapon. Sure, you can stab with it. If it's sharp it will leave big ugly exit wound too. But there are much better stabbing weapons available, in terms of ease of use, grip and penetration. I did some Bando for a while and we spent a lot of time working with the khukri and dha.

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

This is generally my recommendation as well' date=' but I'm getting the vibe that Ragitsu is trying to find justification for the concept more so than rework the concept.[/quote']

 

Oh, I too believe there would be street samurai that use knives, shortswords, and the like. I just want to know how feasible it is to see one of these katana and gun wielding warriors walking the street, or even just appearing every so often in an establishment.

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

Oh' date=' I too believe there would be street samurai that use knives, shortswords, and the like. I just want to know how feasible it is to see one of these katana and gun wielding warriors walking the street, or even just appearing every so often in an establishment.[/quote']

 

Lets be honest here: there's probably not going to be that many situations in game that will highlight the issues that come up carrying around a larger weapon.

 

The most common issues you will probably run into in game will revolve around concealability and grappling. Smaller weapons like knives are exactly the sort of OAF's that GM's will tend to let characters still use in a grapple.

 

Roleplaying wise this may be a totally normal thing that people just shrug at because it's so damn commonplace. No one really bats an eye at it in Shadowrun, for example. By contrast, this could be looked at as the mark of a total armature or lunatic. "Really, only an idiot or a mad man brings a sword to as gun fight!!!" type thing. Or it might just be an awe inspiring sight to behold, because only people that are action hero levels of AMAZING actually live long enough to try stuff like that.

 

Folded has already outlined some of the reasons why a setting might show a rise in dedicated melee weapon usage in the future though.

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

pardon my ignorace but is a street samurai automatically a villain or can the termrefer to a hero as well?

 

No "alignment" implication at all in the profession. It's a very broad slang term for certain types of mercenaries.

 

Of course, a lot of Street Sam's in Shadowrun are player characters and therefor arguably are the "good guys"...

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

Another factor to consider: if you run toward a group of non-combatants screaming and waving a sword' date=' they will get the **** out of your way. Sharp edges intimidate people on a visceral level that guns don't. Maybe it's that most people have been cut at least a little at some point and KNOW the pain a sword can bring. Maybe it's the thought of having bits cut OFF. Maybe they don't think you'll shoot them but they can believe you'll cut them a little, or hit them by accident as you run past..[/quote']

 

People keep saying this, but it's not true. Run at people waving a blade and they'll give you space. Run at them and fire a few rounds and they'll give you space fast. This I have seen with my own eyes.

 

Basically, if you are serious about violence, blades are for people who can't afford guns.

 

And personally - armed or not - I'd rather face a crazy guy with a blade than a crazy guy with a gun. They're both potentially lethal but one of them is only lethal in a small space around himself.

 

cheers, Mark

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

Lets be honest here: there's probably not going to be that many situations in game that will highlight the issues that come up carrying around a larger weapon.

 

The most common issues you will probably run into in game will revolve around concealability and grappling. Smaller weapons like knives are exactly the sort of OAF's that GM's will tend to let characters still use in a grapple.

 

Roleplaying wise this may be a totally normal thing that people just shrug at because it's so damn commonplace. No one really bats an eye at it in Shadowrun, for example. By contrast, this could be looked at as the mark of a total armature or lunatic. "Really, only an idiot or a mad man brings a sword to as gun fight!!!" type thing. Or it might just be an awe inspiring sight to behold, because only people that are action hero levels of AMAZING actually live long enough to try stuff like that.

 

Folded has already outlined some of the reasons why a setting might show a rise in dedicated melee weapon usage in the future though.

 

I mean in "reality", not in a game. Our Earth. Or, at the least, a setting very close to it.

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

People keep saying this' date=' but it's [b']not true[/b].

 

Uh, actually, this has been observed before. That guns scare people too is not a surprise.

 

blades are for people who can't afford guns.

 

Depends on the gun and the blade, wouldn't you say? Oh, and, arguably, those that use blades will likely need more expensive cybernetics as well.

 

And personally - armed or not - I'd rather face a crazy guy with a blade than a crazy guy with a gun. They're both potentially lethal but one of them is only lethal in a small space around himself.

 

In a wide open space, sure. Start to get away from that - however - and the situation becomes less clear-cut (no pun intended).

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

Plus' date=' there's the minor side benefit of being intimidating: someone carrying a sword into battle knows how to use it (exceptions aside). The difference between this and a pistol? Well, the pistoleer has up to around thirty chances to hit. The swordsman presumably is good enough to close in and get a chop. This, of course, is probably not an issue on a long battlefield, so the sword loses most of it's psychological potency in that environment.[/quote']

 

It's not even an issue if he's on the other side of the street - or in a decent-sized room or passageway. Soldiers who are fighting room to room while clearing buildings don't use swords, or even knives/clubs, except as a last (desperate) resort. They use short firearms (and explosives, of course). In close combat, the gun-user will kill the blade user far, far more often than the reverse. And at longer ranges he rules. A sword's almost useless in a clinch and hard to use in very close quarters, while a pistol actually becomes even more lethal. In a close-in fight give me a pistol over a blade any day.

 

Now, as I noted above, I'm not saying don't use swords - it's game and a style thing, and heck, I did it myself in-game. But if you are asking if it is realistic - then the answer is no, much as we might wish otherwise :). I can easily believe that people might carry swords as status symbols or iconic weapons (look at Japan WW2) I can even believe in them as weapons in post-apocalyptic settings where ammo or unreliable, scarce or both. But not in a cyberpunk setting, where lack of ammo is rarely a problem, the possibility of getting a sword through security (even with today's technology a ceramic blade would be easily picked up) is about zero, and the knowledge that even today's solid (ie: effective anti-ballistic) armour is essentially impenetrable to blades. I haven't seen anything in-game that changes that equation.

 

cheers, Mark

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

In close combat' date=' the gun-user will kill the blade user far, far more often than the reverse. And at longer ranges he rules. A sword's almost useless in a clinch and hard to use in very close quarters, while a pistol actually becomes even more lethal. In a close-in fight give me a pistol over a blade any day.[/quote']

 

Except that it has been shown that at ranges around and below twenty feet, firearms incrementally begin to equal melee weapons in terms of reaction time on a firearm wielder's behalf. Add in supercircuits, and they become a heck of a lot more feasible.

 

But if you are asking if it is realistic - then the answer is no' date=' much as we might wish otherwise :).[/quote']

 

And, with cybernetics?

 

the possibility of getting a sword through security (even with today's technology a ceramic blade would be easily picked up) is about zero

 

S'why I said "ranged" and "metal detector". Of course a CT-scan or X-ray will pick it up. Heck, a simple pat-down should.

 

' date=' and the knowledge that even today's solid (ie: effective anti-ballistic) armour is essentially impenetrable to blades.[/quote']

 

Assuming every target is wearing Dragon's Skin or an equivalent, then, yes, that would be a problem. That stuff isn't exactly cheapo though, plus it's rather ablative. I also figure a street samurai will know how to target less armored spots on a human body with their blade.

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

Depends on the gun and the blade' date=' wouldn't you say? Oh, and, arguably, those that use blades will likely need more expensive cybernetics as well.[/quote']

 

I was talking about real life. We were discussing "is it realistic?" after all. In real life, if you're intending - or even expecting - violence, you try to get a gun, not a sword. People - in real life - settle for swords when thy can't get guns or - like the Afar - they carry guns and swords. Swords, mostly because they're manly and good for castrating your fallen victims ... but they fight with guns. Not even an Afar is crazy enough to take (just) a sword to a gun fight. We have seen - in the past, and even today - guys with swords trying to tackle guys with guns and we all know how that ends up. Cybernetics can make the sword guy faster and stronger - but it also allows gun guy to be faster and capable of putting three 12 mm AP rounds into your eyesocket in a fraction of a second ...

 

So again, to make the point ... Is it realistic? The answer is no, it's not. If you are really not interested in that answer, perhaps you should not have posed the question. :)

I wouldn't let that stop me, in game, though, because many things about gaming are unrealistic. As a GM, I wouldn't blink an eye at a street sam with a katana, and neither would the majority of NPC.s. It's totally in genre.

 

cheers, Mark

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

There seems to be an assumption being made that the street samurai will attack first with their sword (rather than gun) against gun wielders, when it is far more likely that smart/surviving ones will obviously use their weapon like a carefully wielded scalpel, and not like an indiscriminate hammer. I dunno. Could just be my point of view.

 

So again, to make the point ... Is it realistic? The answer is no, it's not. If you are really not interested in that answer, perhaps you should not have posed the question. :)

 

As above ^.

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

The Japanese bought into the "Melee weapons are faster in close combat" thing back in WW2 in the Pacific.

 

It didn't work out so well (to be fair to them tho, their service handgun was pretty *meh*)

 

Another circumstance where bladed weapons might be an advantage in a near future setting are places like East Palo Alto (IRL, now) or Hong Kong in Deux Ex that have gunfire detection systems, although even then suppressed firearms are still prolly the superior choice.

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

The Japanese bought into the "Melee weapons are faster in close combat" thing back in WW2 in the Pacific.

 

It didn't work out so well (to be fair to them tho, their service handgun was pretty *meh*)

 

I'm not going to argue on that particular point, but, many self-defense instructors and CQB experts will mention that around twenty to twenty-one feet is a range where it is possible for a knife wielder to close in before you even have a chance to draw. Either this is a huge widespread delusion, or there really is something to it.

 

Whether you want to compare such an instance to an army trained (we hope!) to use a sword in primary mass combat is up to you.

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

Realistic? Let's break it down.

 

Mercenaries oriented towards urban and corporate work - realistic

Cyberware - not real-world realistic, but standard in cyberpunk and many other sci-fi genres

Sword vs. Gun combat being effective - not realistic

Swords vs. real-world armor - not terribly useful, but solid plates in armor are still relatively unusual, due to mobility issues

Buffed swords (some approaching light saber status) vs. 'near future' armor - realism varies based on the assumptions about the swords and the armor

 

A real street sam is not going to carry a sword. A knife, probably, but mostly for non-combat or indirect combat uses (cutting/prying things is difficult with a gun). Hell, downtown, it's more likely to be a Leatherman or SOG tool, or something similar. "It's not a weapon, officer, it's just a heavy-duty swiss army knife"

 

The next question to ask is: how common are guns, armor, and combat training? If everyone is wearing lightweight armor tailored for the office, swords don't make a lot of sense. If everyone walking down the street has at least a snub-nose .38 on them, likewise. If combat training is common, then swords are further reduced in value. And yes, in some games, everyone carries, everyone is armored, and everyone has at least self-defense training. Not realistic, but perfectly possible in a game.

 

That being said, it's a fun archetype for cyberpunk players. And as a symbol of authority, swords work pretty well. Just recognize that the more realism you apply, the less useful that sword's going to be. Shadowrun is specifically designed to allow for fantasy-style melee combat being as useful an orientation as sci-fi-style gun combat. Other games in the genre have differing views, as does fiction. Pulp sci-fi had lots of swords running around spaceships due to the problems of hull breach, so the leap is not as great as it might seem at first, genre-wise.

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

A real street sam is not going to carry a sword.

 

I am guessing for this to even be remotely possible, there would have to be a big breakdown in civil rights/society on a nationwide scale, coupled with megacorporations being more omnipresent and being able to buy rights without any red tape.

 

"Why yes officer, I have a permit for this battle rifle loaded with APDS rounds"

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Re: How (un)realistic are Street Samurai?

 

I'm not going to argue on that particular point, but, many self-defense instructors and CQB experts will mention that around twenty to twenty-one feet is a range where it is possible for a knife wielder to close in before you even have a chance to draw. Either this is a huge widespread delusion, or there really is something to it.

 

Whether you want to compare such an instance to an army trained (we hope!) to use a sword in primary mass combat is up to you.

 

I see it as a practical comparison for the following reasons....

Japanese troops were the last major instance of trained swordsmen in CQB (jungle fighting)

They were using the most common sort of sword associated with Street Samurai (the katana, considered to be close to the best sword design)

Their opponents (us) came from a culture that similarly values firearms competence

Using early examples of modern firearms tech (The M1911 was really kinda ahead of its time)

 

Check out some details of the medals given (esp. posthumously) and it becomes clear that given approximately equal factors on both sides, the .45 just seems to prove itself as the better force multiplier.

 

The key word in your statement, to me, is "possible". Yeah, it's possible to close, draw and strike before the other guy can draw, point, and fire, but possible is far from likely, or common. Anything that requires years of additional training to achieve approximately the same level of effectiveness isn't that great.

 

And sticking with one main weapon means not splitting ones focus either in the field or while training. The guy who uses the same tool for ranged and CQB won't have to worry about the whole drawing part, and can deal with multiple targets in multiple range bands.

 

(I used to teach swordfighting. I love blades. I just don't see them as realistically practical against guns unless there is some other factor involved that alters the equation)

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