Wealth and Super Heroes

[Laundry Knight]

Although many super heroes have been defined as wealthy (Batman and Iron Man) and that wealth was used to explain those characters' access to high tech, is spending CP or XP on wealth necessary in a supers genre? Most any device a hero wishes to use on a regular basis has to be bought with CP or XP and not with in game wealth. He isn't helped by wealth. Likewise, a hero defined as impoverished is not restricted from using his CP or XP from obtaining items he would not otherwise afford. This makes wealth or poverty to be more of a special affect than either an advantage or disadvantage. It seems to me that either wealth and poverty mechanics should be eliminated from supers campaign or reduced in price, and I am thinking of either removing it halving its cost or payment. How do other GMs handle and use wealth in their campaigns?

[Christopher]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

The rules as writen agree with you:

"Money matters less in some campaigns than in others. Incredibly wealthy superheroes aren’t uncommon, and even perpetually impoverished superheroes somehow always seem to be able to afford all those nifty gadgets they use (maybe that’s why they’re so poor the rest of the time)."

 

Also there is a standing rule to "not spend points on things the GM thinks are likely to have no relevant game effect".

 

 

As for the question if wealth is appropirate/usefull for a superheroic game:

As it generally has no game effect, it should not cost anything. It might be worth something as special effect behind complications.

 

But there is a optional rules to give it game effect on APG I 26:

Basically you can "throw money at it", getting a +1 per point of wealth thrown at it. These wealth points recover in a year (but you might give faster regeneration) and you don't ever have more "resource" than what you spent on the moeny perk.

[Martin2]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

I think wealth should be mostly background for the non heroic identity. Or background for the heroic idenity to explain his powers.

 

It should also be made clear that wealth is background and not a cheap way of getting free powers and contacts etc.

 

As mentioned you can have heroes with no money and they still can have high tech super powers and have a very limited theory on how they mantain the high tech powers (they have a friend that keeps it going / it repairs itself / it need minimal maintanance etc). It is true for the reverse when a hero has lots of money but has no money based powers and it is only background.

 

I think once you get beyond 5 points in wealth you have to start investing in followers and bases and other character point based perks / powers to simulate the money advantage as I think having only 10+ CP's in wealth is wasted as it should be only used on the secret id and should have no effect on the hero id.

 

Once a player wants to spend more I would say a player would have to buy other perks / followers / contacts etc to flesh out the wealth so it can have an effect on the heroic side of the character.

 

But that is my opinion.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

Wealth has advantages beyond buying equipment. For example, rich people can:

 

• Afford to hire better lawyers if sued or charged with a crime.
  
• Spend more time on leisure activities (or crimefighting) since they're not usually slaving away 9-to-5 all week.
  
• Take vacations pretty much anytime they want.
  

[bluesguy]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

In my campaign I have the players pay for enough 'wealth' that they can have jobs where they are upper middle class & have a profession that lets them run off and fight crime.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

Wealth has advantages beyond buying equipment. For example, rich people can:

 

• Afford to hire better lawyers if sued or charged with a crime.
  
• Spend more time on leisure activities (or crimefighting) since they're not usually slaving away 9-to-5 all week.
  
• Take vacations pretty much anytime they want.
  

 

 

Exactly. not all my groups PCs are wealthy although some wealth is the norm but none have a 9 to 5 job. flexibilty of time management and the abilty to take off at a moment's notice is vital in my camapaigns

[Christopher]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

Wealth has advantages beyond buying equipment. For example, rich people can:

 

• Afford to hire better lawyers if sued or charged with a crime.
  
• Spend more time on leisure activities (or crimefighting) since they're not usually slaving away 9-to-5 all week.
  
• Take vacations pretty much anytime they want.
  

Is that really a game effect? Or just the special effect for having not so Severe Secret Identities/no Subject to Orders Complications?

 

Because I don't think the Money perk (what I think Laundry Knight meant with "Wealth") has any influence on that.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

I don't know many real-world professions, even at the higher income brackets, that give you carte blanche to disappear off the face of the earth for days or weeks at a time while your alter-ego goes off to save the world. There are certain professions that give more freedom of action than others, but everyone who works still has responsibilities and will no longer be employed if they brush them off too often.

 

And there will always be people wondering "Hey, where has Mister McRich been since Tuesday?" and thus bringing about awkward questions.

 

The only way around this is I can see is to be employed full-time as a superhero -- which poses issues of its own. Who is your employer, and will his interests always coincide with yours? What happens when they don't? What happens if your employer is himself a supervillain behind the scenes, pulling your heroes' strings in an effort to secure greater personal power?

[assault]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

And there will always be people wondering "Hey' date=' where has Mister McRich been since Tuesday?" and thus bringing about awkward questions.[/quote']

 

Nobody noticed when Howard Hughes fought crime. They just thought he was "reclusive".

 

Actually, paparazzi would be an issue for rich superheroes. That's why you make sure that the entrance to the Batcave is inside your house, and the exit is far enough away and sufficiently hidden that nobody finds it.

 

Or you have a teleporter.

[Balabanto]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

You forgot just desolidifying and leaving through a wall.

[Orion]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

Although many super heroes have been defined as wealthy (Batman and Iron Man) and that wealth was used to explain those characters' access to high tech' date=' is spending CP or XP on wealth necessary in a supers genre? Most any device a hero wishes to use on a regular basis has to be bought with CP or XP and not with in game wealth. He isn't helped by wealth. Likewise, a hero defined as impoverished is not restricted from using his CP or XP from obtaining items he would not otherwise afford. This makes wealth or poverty to be more of a special affect than either an advantage or disadvantage. It seems to me that either wealth and poverty mechanics should be eliminated from supers campaign or reduced in price, and I am thinking of either removing it halving its cost or payment. How do other GMs handle and use wealth in their campaigns?[/quote']

 

I approach gaming from a story and setting viewpoint, not a rules viewpoint. Thus, if they have money, they can buy anything that is available. If they are broke, they can't buy anything. Broke, but want a new suit of armor? Better hope that some villainous organization has a battle nearby so you can loot the bodies before the police arrive. Need a new ray gun? Buy the GM an extra large pepperoni pizza and he might work it into the next storyline. I don't even bother giving out XP in any game system. If the players want to change their characters, and I think it a reasonable change, it gets worked into the storyline.

 

As a player, if you told me the character's wealth couldn't help him out, my first question would be why even have a character background? If I have to ignore part or all of it, what point is there in having it?

[Cassandra]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

Wealty could be used as a Cramming version of the VPP. You can buy temporary powers, or Fringe Bennefits based on the amount of Wealth you have.

[Ice9]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

IMC, Wealth can be used to get things, including things with an actual rules effect. Now it's not going to be as good as actually buying the thing with points, but it's not useless either - after all, high amounts of Wealth are a 10-15 point Perk - that's pretty sizeable, and should have a corresponding effect.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

XP-less games work great for some groups and I have nothing against them. Likewise, character developement "at the speed of plot" is a perfectly legit way to run a game. That being said, if I ever had a GM who was so blatantly biased that he let some characters advance more, or even just sooner (and possibly, by your description, setting up entire adventures/scenarios just to allow them to do so) based on who brought him the best treat last week, I would walk in a heart-beat. I don't have the time or energy to put up with that type of stupid crap and won't waste my time pandering to a GM who blatantly plays favorites.

 

I approach gaming from a story and setting viewpoint, not a rules viewpoint. Thus, if they have money, they can buy anything that is available. If they are broke, they can't buy anything. Broke, but want a new suit of armor? Better hope that some villainous organization has a battle nearby so you can loot the bodies before the police arrive. Need a new ray gun? Buy the GM an extra large pepperoni pizza and he might work it into the next storyline. I don't even bother giving out XP in any game system. If the players want to change their characters, and I think it a reasonable change, it gets worked into the storyline.

 

As a player, if you told me the character's wealth couldn't help him out, my first question would be why even have a character background? If I have to ignore part or all of it, what point is there in having it?

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

Wealth does have privileges that can help a PC, though. It's a great introduction to high society and the political class, which can be great sources of useful information for PCs. Maybe not as good as full-fledged Contacts (which are stable, reasonably friendly, and otherwise worth every point) but useful. It also means that the PC is likely to be first on the scene when the GM has the fancy prty they are attending attacked by supervillains looking for rich, lucrative hostages.

 

That scenario poses the interesting role-playing challenge of summoning your fellow heroes, and ideally doing something yourself, without revealing your heroic secret to all your friends. Bruce Wayne faced that problem in at least two of the Nolan Batman movies, and came up with a very interesting solution in the first one (IIRC it involved pretending to be inebriated and obnoxious).

 

To make it worth the points it should also enable you to take advantage of numerous small favors that come into play when someone has a lot of money. I could let a player get away with a bonus on Charm rolls related to doing things like giving nice gifts to someone you want to influence, for example. You may not be able to get a supercar for yourself or your teammates on wealth alone, but there's something to be said for being able to buy a new car and give it to someone you want to impress. You'll likely never see it again as it now belongs to the NPC, but the NPC will view you a lot more favorably! You can also do things like endow college funds for the children of your teammates, donate to the university that supports your cutting-edge research, or establish a charity foundation to support a particular cause. None of these provide a direct enough benefit to be worth points, but they help your character navigate the social scene, build up his reputation among his teammates, and generally build notoriety as a "good guy" in your civilian ID.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

Best use of wealth ever: Batman bribing Ultra Humanite in Justice League animated.

[Christopher]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

Wealth does have privileges that can help a PC' date=' though. It's a great introduction to high society and the political class, which can be great sources of useful information for PCs. Maybe not as good as full-fledged Contacts (which are stable, reasonably friendly, and otherwise worth every point) but useful.[/quote']

That is the high soceity skill.

 

It also means that the PC is likely to be first on the scene when the GM has the fancy prty they are attending attacked by supervillains looking for rich' date=' lucrative hostages. That scenario poses the interesting role-playing challenge of summoning your fellow heroes, and ideally doing something yourself, without revealing your heroic secret to all your friends. Bruce Wayne faced that problem in at least two of the Nolan Batman movies, and came up with a very interesting solution in the first one (IIRC it involved pretending to be inebriated and obnoxious).[/quote']

Is he the first there because of his wealth, or is the attack on this party because he is there and the GM wanted to get him there?

It sounds like a convenient way to trigger a Secret Identity Complicaiton, not an effect flowing from him having teh money perk.

 

To make it worth the points it should also enable you to take advantage of numerous small favors that come into play when someone has a lot of money.

Hero generelly asumes to go from the effect, not the special effect. If your effect is having "numerous small favors" Ultimate Contact from the APG I is propably the way to go. Not the money perk.

You seem to agree that the perk: money itself has no value in a superheroic game, but then go on and try to give it a value that totally different game elements have (Folowers, Skill Bonus). Choosing game elements based on them being named like the special effect you have in mind is most often a bad choice. Instead the hero way is to choose the game effects and built them

 

I could let a player get away with a bonus on Charm rolls related to doing things like giving nice gifts to someone you want to influence' date=' for example. You may not be able to get a supercar for yourself or your teammates on wealth alone, but there's something to be said for being able to buy a new car and give it to someone you want to impress. You'll likely never see it again as it now belongs to the NPC, but the NPC will view you a lot more favorably![/quote']

That sounds liky "buying" the contact with character points. Using money is at best a special effect/in game explanation

As for getting a bonus to charm rolls, that is covered by the rules on APG I 26.

 

As an alternative build, Great gifts: 2 4-point skill level w/ all interaction Skills, 8 AP, Extra Time (1 Hour; -3), 2 Real.

The character gifts an NPC and as a result he is viewed more favorably in the near future (this adventure). However, between gifting and the time you can reap the effects a certain amount of time has to pass. Everything "faster" is simply rolling Bribery as Complimentary roll.

 

You can also do things like endow college funds for the children of your teammates' date=' donate to the university that supports your cutting-edge research, or establish a charity foundation to support a particular cause. None of these provide a direct enough benefit to be worth points, but they help your character navigate the social scene, build up his reputation among his teammates, and generally build notoriety as a "good guy" in your civilian ID.[/quote']

That sounds like the special effect of buying a positive reputation, not a function of the money perk.

[Hermit]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

I rarely get to play the megamillionaire/billionaire in games because it is so popular. RPGs encourage escapism and who doesn't sometimes dream of being so well off that you can have time to goof off. My players rarely complained about the in game cost for it, or at least it rarely stopped them from going for at least a few points of it.

[esampson]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

That is the high soceity skill.

 

 

Is he the first there because of his wealth, or is the attack on this party because he is there and the GM wanted to get him there?

It sounds like a convenient way to trigger a Secret Identity Complicaiton, not an effect flowing from him having teh money perk.

 

 

Hero generelly asumes to go from the effect, not the special effect. If your effect is having "numerous small favors" Ultimate Contact from the APG I is propably the way to go. Not the money perk.

You seem to agree that the perk: money itself has no value in a superheroic game, but then go on and try to give it a value that totally different game elements have (Folowers, Skill Bonus). Choosing game elements based on them being named like the special effect you have in mind is most often a bad choice. Instead the hero way is to choose the game effects and built them

 

 

That sounds liky "buying" the contact with character points. Using money is at best a special effect/in game explanation

As for getting a bonus to charm rolls, that is covered by the rules on APG I 26.

 

As an alternative build, Great gifts: 2 4-point skill level w/ all interaction Skills, 8 AP, Extra Time (1 Hour; -3), 2 Real.

The character gifts an NPC and as a result he is viewed more favorably in the near future (this adventure). However, between gifting and the time you can reap the effects a certain amount of time has to pass. Everything "faster" is simply rolling Bribery as Complimentary roll.

 

 

That sounds like the special effect of buying a positive reputation, not a function of the money perk.

Can you find ways to do those effects with characteristics other than wealth? Sure, but that's just part of how the Hero system works. You can also buy Flight with a limitation that you have to remain in contact with a surface or you can buy Running, Clinging, and Swimming with corresponding limitations. Often when you do that the cheaper solution has more limitations (such as the turn mode for flight) but you can still achieve similar basic effects through more than one way.

[Ice9]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

Bottom line - Wealth (at millionaire levels) is a 10-15 point perk. Therefore, it's not only acceptable but preferable for it to have actual mechanical effects. So yes, it produce effects like Contacts, certain skills, and so forth - that's not a problem, that's the normal effect of a more expensive ability covering more ground than less expensive ones - see VPP, Universal Translator, Telekinesis, etc.

 

Of course, I feel the same way about Transform. You spend 60 points on something, it better have an actual effect.

[Christopher]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

Bottom line - Wealth (at millionaire levels) is a 10-15 point perk. Therefore' date=' it's not only acceptable but [i']preferable[/i] for it to have actual mechanical effects. So yes, it produce effects like Contacts, certain skills, and so forth - that's not a problem, that's the normal effect of a more expensive ability covering more ground than less expensive ones - see VPP, Universal Translator, Telekinesis, etc.

I agree that if it cost something it should have an effect. But it should be it's own effect, not the game effects of other elements.

 

If it has no game effect, then it should cost nothing (everyone can be a millionaire for free) and instead "Wealth" - the special effect - is used for certain contact, favors, powers and skills. Or the lack of complciations like Secret ID.

[Ranxerox]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

If I'm GMing a game and I want all the characters to go to Europe, even if none of them have the money to buy plane tickets I will find a way to get them there. Of course if I want the players to get to the other side of a locked door I will find some way to work that out, so why bother to spend points on security systems? Also, I won't make the villains so tough that the heroes can't beat them so what is the point of powers and combat skills? Matter of fact since the GM will just do all the work to make sure story proceeds, why even bother to show up? Clearly your presence is not needed.

 

People spend points so their characters can be rich for the same reason that they buy flight and super strength; because it is cool. It's fun to be the big man and say, "Hey, I will buy everybody's plane ticket to Paris." For most of us, just being able to open up our wallets and being able to plop out $10k and not have to worry about it is as impossible as lifting a bus. So, Hero charges you for the coolness of it, but not as much as it would charge you to lift that bus. That is because while you might not be able to spend $10k and not sweat it, some people can. No one can lift a bus. Therefore, being able to lift a bus is cooler than being rich, even though they are both cool.

 

There are games where the background you write is your character. If you think that your character's should have whatever is written into their backgrounds you should play one of those game. Hero forces you to make choices concerning what cool things your character can do and possesses and it does this through its point system. Money is just another cool thing you can elect to spend points on or not.

[Badger]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

The rules as writen agree with you:

"Money matters less in some campaigns than in others. Incredibly wealthy superheroes aren’t uncommon, and even perpetually impoverished superheroes somehow always seem to be able to afford all those nifty gadgets they use (maybe that’s why they’re so poor the rest of the time)."

 

 

 

I had neighbors in the trailer park near my house who would shoot fireworks every night for a week before Independence Day, plus a couple night beofre Memorial Day. I figured they were CEOs who lived in a trailer because they spent all their money on fireworks.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

I like to buy just enough wealth to explain why I don't have to hold down a day job and can adventure whenever I want. Sometimes, it's product endorsements and licenses, sometimes just passive royalty income from some form of IP, sometimes it's just inherited or found wealth. Usually about 100k income level (5pts?). Enough to have all basic needs met, plus an occasional luxury or three, but not enough that managing it becomes a full time job itself. (Though, usually the form the wealth takes can provide plot hooks.)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Wealth and Super Heroes

 

In a lot of games, it's worth the 10-15 points just to have an easy justification for buying a new power or vehicle or base upgrade. "Yeah, I want to install a new plasma blaster in my battlesuit." "How do you get it?" "I buy it and pay someone to install it." Bingo-bango-bongo, you're done.

 

I have yet to play a millionaire high-tech character who wasn't capable of building and installing his own gear, though ... they're always inventors and scientists and such. Sometime, if I ever get to play again, I should do that. Someone who just bought all his gear ... wait for someone in the group to ask me a technical question and be all 'How the f*** should I know?'