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[New Product] Champions Complete


Jason S.Walters

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

As a writer' date=' Derek is unknown to me as is Ruben[/quote']My past writing for Hero Games includes Vibora Bay and Champions Battlegrounds, and I was one of the folks who provided input for 5ER and 6E as part of the "5ER Five" and "SETAC," respectively. I've been a Champions/HERO System player and an active participant in the Hero community for about 25 years. :)

 

1) Will the character sheets be reworked. There is a lot of duplication on the first page (mostly all the characteristics except the 6 basic ones are listed twice) and as such I think it would help make the sheet look simpler by keeping the former derived in the appropriate (combat' date=' defense,etc...) sections.[/quote']

 

I don't think this has been written in stone yet.

 

2) Will Champions Complete use 100% vanilla HERO or will it make some assumptions based on toolkitting or Advanced Player's Guides rules (DEX cost 1pt' date=' HAP, Disadvantages don't give back points but give back HAP when uses in game, whatever you judge would be beneficial to simulate comic books)?[/quote']

 

Vanilla HERO. As Jason has noted elsewhere, one of the intentions is for Champions Complete to be able to take the place of 6E1, 6E2, Champions, and Basic in the Hero Games product line, so it essentially serves as the core rulebook, in addition to a superhero genre book.

 

3) Will it completely omit stuff not usually used in Champions games (Hit Location chart' date=' Disabling/Impairing rules,etc...)?[/quote']

 

No. The Heroic-level rules are still included. Everything is treated with less extensive detail than it was in 6E1 and 6E2 (that was probably the primary design goal), and the Heroic rules are perhaps condensed even more than the Superheroic rules are. But they're in there. (After all, not all comic book stories are about superheroes... :) )

 

5) Will you try to eliminate jargon that newcomer might find too opaque? As a long time HERO gamer I kind of fail to see which expressions would be the offenders but I guess OCV/DCV/OMCV/DMCV might be ones?

 

No. Every game has its jargon. (Pathfinder certainly has plenty, and that doesn't seem to stop anyone from playing that... :winkgrin:) Of course, they are all explained. :)

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

It's not changing any rules' date=' it's just filtering down the word count to cut costs.[/quote']

 

4) Will it change/revise/update rules that you might find needs it since 6E was released?

 

I wouldn't say that there are no rules changes whatsoever, mainly because it's hard to predict what someone will consider a "change." :)

 

For example, 6E1 page 182 has a paragraph describing the exact effect of Area Of Effect: personal Surface (Damage Shield) on Clinging. That information is not in Champions Complete. Is that "changing" a rule? I'd say it's not; it's simply deciding that the situation is rare enough that the core rulebook doesn't need to speak to it specifically, and therefore essentially leaving it up the GM. (And I suspect that most GMs would run the situation much like 6E1 suggests anyway, even without the book spelling it out.) If you consider this sort of thing to be a "changed" rule, then yes... the book has many "changes."

 

What about if something works the same way, but is called something different? For example, the game concept of the Naked Advantage has been renamed Independent Advantage in Champions Complete, but it works the same way. Is that a change?

 

What about if a few closely-related or nearly-identical game elements are combined into one? For example, Champions Complete combines Radio Perception, Radio Perception/Transmission, and High Range Radio Perception into a single Enhanced Sense simply called Radio Perception, with a three-tiered pricing structure that's the same as the three cost separately before. Is that a rule change, or just re-arranging the presentation? Likewise, Safe Blind Travel (from Extra-Dimensional Movement) and Safe Blind Teleport (from Teleportation) are combined into a single Adder called Safe Blind Travel that can apply to either Power. Rule change? Or just different presentation? :)

 

I consider, and I suspect most folks see it the same way, a "change" to be where a rule used to work one way, and now works differently. If that's the criterion, then (to the best of my recollection off the top of my head), there are at most three "changes" in Champions Complete:

 

  • Animal Handler, Forgery, Gambling, Navigation, Survival and Weaponsmith are presented as normal 3-point Skills instead of broken into categories. The concept of breaking Skills down into categories if you want more detail is in the book, but none of the Skills are presented that way by default.
  • The Absolute Effect Rule has been removed. However, the Core Concept of You Can Change Anything specifically spells out that the GM can allow anything he or she wishes to allow, at whatever cost he or she thinks is appropriate. So it's not like you can't do it anymore... the specific suggestion about it just isn't there anymore.
  • Classes Of Minds has been removed as a concept. Mental Powers now work universally by default, and if you want them to apply to a limited type of target, you take a Limitation.

 

That's about it. The place where folks will notice the most "change" is in the presentation. Aside from the obvious more concise approach -- removal of a lot of repetition, elaboration, detail, and examples -- one noteworthy re-arrangement regards Power Modifiers.

 

In Champions Complete, Adders, Advantages, and Limitations that can apply to one-and-only-one Power are listed with that Power's description. All other Adders, Advantages, and Limitations -- even if they can only apply to two Powers, or only apply to Vehicles or what have you -- are listed alphabetically in a single Power Modifiers chapter (and the description of each one indicates which Powers it can apply to). Consolidating things in this way will hopefully make things easier to find as well. :hex:

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

With removing the Class of Mind aspect of Mental Powers does that mean all Mental Powers work against machines and humans unless Limited? If so is there a suggested value for Human (or Sentient Organic Being) Only or Machine/Computer Only Limitation? If you don't mins me asking, why the name change to Naked Advantage?

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

  • [*]Classes Of Minds has been removed as a concept. Mental Powers now work universally by default' date=' and if you want them to apply to a limited type of target, you take a Limitation.[/list']

 

Okay, THAT'S important. I can now think of at least eight characters in Meriquai Falls (between the Imperions supplement and the Primer) where I can now either cut out a smidge of word count or readjust the character point total. Very helpful.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

So when this product comes out' date=' you will cease selling the 6E1 and 6E2 books and destroying whatever stock you have left? The same question applies for other 6E books that this one is replacing.[/quote']In the Q&A post Jason specifically said they would continue to sell them (6E1-2, Champions, and Basic) in digital form, online, and at conventions though they have no plans to reprint them. What possible reasoning would make you think they would destroy product?
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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

And here I just received my copies of Hero System Volumes 1 (damaged cover) and 2 in the mail.;)

 

Not that I'm unhappy to hear about this or anything*.

 

It's funny, but this announcement is what finally prompted me to order 6E v1 (damaged) and v2. Now that I know that they won't be reprinted I figured I better get them now before they are out of stock. My group has no desire to switch from 5E to 6E but I decided I wanted the 6E books in my collection. Maybe I can port some of the ideas over - I already plan to push for the new way the Attack Versus Alternate Defense Advantage is handled.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

...my only reservation is about interior B&W. All the current super games are in color so reclaiming the crown would most likely require a similar treatment. Even more so if Champions Complete is the new core book.

 

The horse has probably already left the barn, but I have to second this. I think softcover with color interior art would be the way to go. A book with black and white art just does not appear as polished as the competition, especially when dealing with the superhero genre which cries out for dynamic color artwork.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

The horse has probably already left the barn' date=' but I have to second this. I think softcover with color interior art would be the way to go. A book with black and white art just does not appear as polished as the competition, especially when dealing with the superhero genre which cries out for dynamic color artwork.[/quote']

 

I'd be happy if they cherry picked the best line art from prior stuff, and avoided things like the archetype illustrations from Champs 5th edition with the way too short arms. The Zircher line art from the 4th edition days would be an example of quality line art. Line art says "comics" to me, even if it isn't colored. Most comic fans understand the pencils > inks > colors process well enough. Aiming for quality and consistency in the art is probably going to be more profitable for what's a niche product in a niche market than color printing.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Dang it' date=' LL! Hermit! Quit making comments like that! I can't give you guys any more rep! LOL![/quote']

 

Dude, this is Hero. You don't want a hex shaped set of bifocals or a magnifying glass.

 

You want to BE a hex shaped set of bifocals or a magnifying glass.

 

Oh. And sign me up for my usual 20, where every player gets a copy.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

With removing the Class of Mind aspect of Mental Powers does that mean all Mental Powers work against machines and humans unless Limited?

 

Yes.

 

If so is there a suggested value for Human (or Sentient Organic Being) Only or Machine/Computer Only Limitation?

 

Nope. It's worth whatever the GM thinks it should be worth, based on the campaign. For example, "Machines Only" would be worth a big Limitation in a world where few machines are advanced enough to be affected, and not nearly as much in a world where androids are as common as humans.

 

If you don't mins me asking' date=' why the name change to Naked Advantage?[/quote']

 

Changing the name was an editorial decision (though I did suggest the replacement name). So I don't know specifically why the change was desired, only that it was. :)

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

So when this product comes out' date=' you will cease selling the 6E1 and 6E2 books and destroying whatever stock you have left? The same question applies for other 6E books that this one is replacing.[/quote']

 

This is really a question for Jason, but since he's already answered it elsewhere, I feel comfortable responding. They'll continue selling the existing hardcopy stock of the books until they sell out (through the online store and at conventions; not through distribution channels), and they'll continue selling the books in PDF form. But there are no plans to print more of them.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I am still waiting for my Star Hero 6E and Enemies Vol. 3 for 6E to arrive. I was a Kickstart Supporter on the second and Ordered the first. Still waiting. Champions Complete sounds interesting. I will buy a copy when it becomes available. Selling my gaming group on it will be more of a challenge. I think I might need a new Gaming Group.

 

Cheers

 

QM

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

This is really a question for Jason' date=' but since he's already answered it elsewhere, I feel comfortable responding. They'll continue selling the existing hardcopy stock of the books until they sell out (through the online store and at conventions; not through distribution channels), and they'll continue selling the books in PDF form. But there are no plans to print more of them.[/quote']

 

That's a relief. It was the "not through distribution channels" part I focused on. I thought that meant ALL sales, including the store website.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Question about the changes in mental powers and Physical Complications. Is it still a Physical Complication to be affected as more than one class of mind?

 

It's not a specifically defined type of Physical Complication, but since a Physical Complication is a general concept, it certainly can be in a particular game if the GM thinks it merits a Complication. :)

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Amen. Let's take that stingy gamer stereotype ans break it into pieces.

 

And here I just noted in another thread how I simply wasn't going to pay $110 dollars to have the two part 6th edition and Champions.

 

And hey, how's my little buddy Bennie? Haven't seen you in a long, long time. Back in Canada?

 

(and yes, keeping the mask on)

;-)

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Any chance of seeing a "Classic" line of books(Classic Orgs, Classic Enemies(everyone from 3rd, 4th and 5th who missed the cut for Champs Villains), Classic Adventures(collecting all the old adventures and updating them)?

 

(I already know the answer, but thought I'd ask anyway.)

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