US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

[megaplayboy]

http://www.glasnost.de/hist/usa/1935invasion.html

 

some background:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Color-coded_War_Plans

 

It occurs to me that if one is planning an alternate history pulp or supers game, the above link is a gold mine. The US military drew up contingency plans for war with just about everybody. My personal favorite is War Plan Red-Orange, a contingency for fighting a two-ocean war with the UK and Japan simultaneously(the two countries were allied until 1924).

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

Indeed. The U.S. military greatly admired the abilities of the German General Staff to 'plan in advance'. The color coding was interesting (The members of the British Commonwealth were all shades of red, China was yellow...). The pre-Pentagon planned out every possibility they could think of (taking sides in China's civil war, how to invade the Azores, dealing with a communist revolution in America...). Historically, the U.S. Navy followed the plan for the war against Japan (War Plan Orange) almost perfectly from 1943 to the end.

[megaplayboy]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

Huh. I would have figured this to be Lawnmower Boy bait.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

I tried to think of something to say, I honestly did. But it's just a weird little staff plan. (There was a Canadian staff plan, too. I can't remember what it said, though. 'Run around in circles?') As the basis of an alternate history, it doesn't really grab me. Patriotic as I am, I find the whole "America's about to invade" thing that really exists in Canadian politics to be a bit wing-nutty.

 

Now, as far as war plans go, how about German submarines sneaking into Hudson's Bay to launch diesel-powered bomber flying boats against Winnipeg? Because that's a real thing that someone thought might happen in 1938.

[megaplayboy]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

I tried to think of something to say, I honestly did. But it's just a weird little staff plan. (There was a Canadian staff plan, too. I can't remember what it said, though. 'Run around in circles?') As the basis of an alternate history, it doesn't really grab me. Patriotic as I am, I find the whole "America's about to invade" thing that really exists in Canadian politics to be a bit wing-nutty.

 

Now, as far as war plans go, how about German submarines sneaking into Hudson's Bay to launch diesel-powered bomber flying boats against Winnipeg? Because that's a real thing that someone thought might happen in 1938.

 

There was a U-cruiser concept, with 4 5 inch guns and a single seaplane each. Not sure they'd really have been capable of doing much damage, though. A fun pulp or golden age scenario, maybe.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

For various technical reasons, the metacentric height of submersibles falls as the displacement rises. Not only were the various submarine cruisers lethally unstable, they got even more so as they changed displacement to dive, meaning that they were slow to submerge, and so vulnerable to ASW as well as to capsizing.

 

That doesn't meant that I can't take my inspiration from the guy writing in 1938 about how naval arms limitation treaties still talked about the calibre of the guns on a battleship when they should be talking about how many steps (for hydroplaning) and catapults (for multi-engined strategic-range flying boats, not seaplanes) they should have.

 

I'm not saying that hydroplaning battleships* flying off diesel-engined** B-29-sized flying boats*** were entirely practical, but perhaps they deserve a place in a dieselpunk campaign. Maybe the threat of them could lead to the US opting for transatlantic air transport instead of the Liberty ship programme, as the another columnist suggested a few years later. (In Aero Digest and Aviation, respectively, not the Weekly World News​.)

 

*Steam Gun Boat

**Jumo 204; Napier Nomad

***Blohm und Voss BV138; Consolidated Coronado; "Spruce Goose;" Saro Princess

[megaplayboy]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

For various technical reasons, the metacentric height of submersibles falls as the displacement rises. Not only were the various submarine cruisers lethally unstable, they got even more so as they changed displacement to dive, meaning that they were slow to submerge, and so vulnerable to ASW as well as to capsizing.

 

That doesn't meant that I can't take my inspiration from the guy writing in 1938 about how naval arms limitation treaties still talked about the calibre of the guns on a battleship when they should be talking about how many steps (for hydroplaning) and catapults (for multi-engined strategic-range flying boats, not seaplanes) they should have.

 

I'm not saying that hydroplaning battleships* flying off diesel-engined** B-29-sized flying boats*** were entirely practical, but perhaps they deserve a place in a dieselpunk campaign. Maybe the threat of them could lead to the US opting for transatlantic air transport instead of the Liberty ship programme, as the another columnist suggested a few years later. (In Aero Digest and Aviation, respectively, not the Weekly World News​.)

 

*Steam Gun Boat

**Jumo 204; Napier Nomad

***Blohm und Voss BV138; Consolidated Coronado; "Spruce Goose;" Saro Princess

 

Yeah, the French Surcouf was the biggest-gunned sub ever, with a pair of 8 inch guns. It did take a long time to submerge. I think the Japanese I-400 class was similarly slow to submerge, though they carried only 1 or 2 5.5 inch guns(and 10 anti-aircraft guns! And 3 seaplanes!)

 

I suppose the modified Hyuga and Ise "battle carriers" could have been tweaked to carry H8K flying boats. That would have been fairly formidable as a long-range strike platform.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

You can actually put a pretty big catapult on a pretty small ship.

 

It seems to me that the real problem is that flying boats actually sucked as bombers pretty generally. It's hard to put a bomb bay door in your planing hull. Generally they used little conveyor belts under the wings to wheel the bombs out and drop them --quite a project if you want to drop a depth charge!

 

Clearly the solution to this is a retractable planing hull.

 

No. Seriously.

[megaplayboy]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawanishi_K-200

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_F2Y_Sea_Dart

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_Be-2500

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

You missed the first flying boat jet fighter. (Which is not an impractical concept at all.)

 

Saunders-Roe SR. A/1

 

It's also possible to fly a four-engined aircraft off a conventional aircraft carrier of the era. Just not a very big one.

[megaplayboy]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

From your catapult ship link:

In 1938, an unusual event occurred. An expedition to Antarctica was planned for the purpose of exploring the area. In December1938 the SCHWABENLAND with two aircraft left Germany and arrived at its destination in January 1939. The crew and the scientists aboard then proceeded to aerial map and photograph a large portion of Antarctic territory, which was later demarcated as "Neu-Schwabenland". This exploration led to the creation of a number of myths and conspiracy stories which have grown over the years. They include the creation of massive Nazi bases in Antarctica and connections with extraterrestrial spacecraft. According to many of the conspiracy theories, the substantial U.S. Navy involvement in Antarctic exploration in 1946-47, was part of a massive military exercise required to root out the remnants of a vast underground Nazi base established there.

 

 

Awesome.

[st barbara]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

Yeah' date=' the French Surcouf was the biggest-gunned sub ever, with a pair of 8 inch guns. It did take a long time to submerge. I think the Japanese I-400 class was similarly slow to submerge, though they carried [i']only[/i] 1 or 2 5.5 inch guns(and 10 anti-aircraft guns! And 3 seaplanes!)

 

I suppose the modified Hyuga and Ise "battle carriers" could have been tweaked to carry H8K flying boats. That would have been fairly formidable as a long-range strike platform.

 

With respect I would submit that the British M1 (and M2 I think) submarine from World War (or possibly just after) which was armed with a 12" gun was the biggest gunned sub ever.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

With respect I would submit that the British M1 (and M2 I think) submarine from World War (or possibly just after) which was armed with a 12" gun was the biggest gunned sub ever.

 

Yes, the British "M" class submarines had the biggest guns and the worst luck...

M-1 sunk in collission.

M-2 gun removed, converted to seaplane scout, sunk in training accident.

M-3 gun removed, converted to minelayer, scrapped as poor design.

M-4 never completed, scrapped as unneeded.

 

The French Surcouf wasn't any luckier, sunk in a collision I believe.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

That wasn't bad luck. That was unstable, oversized designs. World War I was a different time, a more innocent one, when people did those sort of experiments, just because they could. And because apparently the crews were expendable.

 

-"K" Class steam-powered submarines: i.e., steam turbine power plants let them be submarines submerged and motor torpedo boats underwater. Nicknamed "The Kalamity class" for reason.

 

-"R" class hunter-killer class. So what if we don't have nuclear reactors, targetting sonars, or computers to resolve targeting solutions and figure out transsonic hydrodynamics? Let's just build the darn things anyway!

 

-"M-Class" submarines. You know what's even more awesome than submarines taking on battleships with torpedoes? Submarines taking on battleships with 12" guns? Why? Because!

 

-"J-class" Submarine. Because the only thing standing in the way of a submarine that's fast enough to keep up with a battleship is a diesel engine that's big enough and complicated enough. Er, is the con-rod supposed to stick out of the cylinder head like that? Hunh. You think we can pawn these off on the Australians? They're pretty dumb.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: US Color-coded war plans, part I: Plan Crimson, the invasion of Canada

 

It was a time of great technological change, also, and no idea what would work and what wouldn't. The internal combustion engine alone made possible airplanes, submarines, tanks, trucks, armored cars, self propelled artillery...